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What mastering methods do you use?
Old 3rd December 2012 | Show parent
  #91
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 ➑️
There aren't many mastering engineers doing their mastering work on multitrack software. It's not the best workflow/processing for many reasons.

I think the majority of mastering engineers use multitrack software! Pyramix, Sonic, Seqouia.. All multitrack.


To the OP: It sounds like you are working on your own tracks. If you want loud, try paying more attention to the sounds you chose next time, especially the ones that are layered and make sure you arrange them so that there aren't any clashes between the sounds that are up front, i.e. lead, kick, bass...
Old 5th December 2012 | Show parent
  #92
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelistics ➑️
I think the majority of mastering engineers use multitrack software! Pyramix, Sonic, Seqouia.. All multitrack.


To the OP: It sounds like you are working on your own tracks. If you want loud, try paying more attention to the sounds you chose next time, especially the ones that are layered and make sure you arrange them so that there aren't any clashes between the sounds that are up front, i.e. lead, kick, bass...
What if it was the presets and the instruments? In that case I would have to use those because I don't like the sounds of other presets/instruments. Besides, if that was actually the case, then I would be forced to make songs that sound just like any other artist, which I clearly would not want because I'm trying to be unique.
Old 5th December 2012
  #93
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by clo17 ➑️
Well, what I'm trying to do is find the best method to mastering using Cubase alone (because I cannot afford anything else, yes I will have to do the mastering myself) but the responses I am getting are too confusing. I mean... busses? mixing? I just don't get it. @[email protected]

For now, I compress the file twice, making three lanes. The first one is the original track, the second one has a bit of compression on it, and the third one has even more compression. Then I apply the UV-something (that is used for mastering, according to Cubase) on all three tracks. I know I have to do multiple compressions but I have no clue how I'm supposed to do that.

I think the primary problem, though, is that the final track is always quieter than popular modern-day tracks.
Ok man if u dnt know what busses and mixing are then u shouldnt even be looking at mastering. Go learn those first and then work on mastering.

Sent from my LG-P705g
Old 5th December 2012 | Show parent
  #94
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizzybeatz ➑️
Ok man if u dnt know what busses and mixing are then u shouldnt even be looking at mastering. Go learn those first and then work on mastering.

Sent from my LG-P705g
If I did not know then I wouldn't have even considered mentioning limiters here. I'm just concerned about if the limiter will be effective or not and how to use one. I just haven't used a hardware limiter before.
Old 5th December 2012
  #95
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🎧 10 years
what a thread

Old 5th December 2012
  #96
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🎧 5 years
Whut, ye like seeing flame wars or something? =_=

Anyway, just got this thing...

TLs maximizer - VST Plugins

It wouldn't really be effective if I was trying to match up against madeon's loudness and clarity, would it? =_=

If it is effective at least it would help if I can get a know-how. =3=
Old 5th December 2012
  #97
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🎧 5 years
Madeon's clarity comes from his mixes, not the mastering. If you were to listen to his un-mastered tracks, they'd sound fantastic. As for limiting, you can give that plugin a shot. Just know it's not the gear that makes a master great, it's the knowledge of how to use it.
Old 5th December 2012 | Show parent
  #98
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theturtlemafia ➑️
Just know it's not the gear that makes a master great, it's the knowledge of how to use it.
... and knowing when not to – whatever it is.
Old 5th December 2012
  #99
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Too many mix engineers think, "we'll let the mastering engineer fix that" or "we'll fix that in mastering". If you aren't a mastering engineer, fix everything in the mix first. You should be able to make it sound as good as a mastered song in the mix. Don't worry about mastering, just create hot mixes and put a bit of limiting on them like every other mix engineer that is not a mastering engineer. If you want to learn about mastering later, you will obviously have to not be stingy and use only the plugins in Cubase because cubase lacks the necessary tools such as a high quality linear phase EQ, multiband adaptive limiting, etc... You can master professionally in Cubase, but only after buying plugins that cost more than Cubase itself and with years of training your ears/experience.
Old 5th December 2012 | Show parent
  #100
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by clo17 ➑️
What if it was the presets and the instruments? In that case I would have to use those because I don't like the sounds of other presets/instruments. Besides, if that was actually the case, then I would be forced to make songs that sound just like any other artist, which I clearly would not want because I'm trying to be unique.
If you are using presets and trying to sound like Deadmau5 while also being unique, you might want to consider rethinking your approach to making music. I mean this in all seriousness.

Gonna put my previous answer to your question differently in case you just didn't understand the phrasing:Loud starts in the arrangement and the sounds you chose. Just making a bloody mess in production and then spending hours EQing and limiting everything is the wrong approach and wil NEVER work!
Instead keep it simple. One sound per freq range, don't let all the sounds "hit" at the same time. Don't layer just for the sake of it. If you do learn about phase!
Old 5th December 2012 | Show parent
  #101
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelistics ➑️
If you are using presets and trying to sound like Deadmau5 while also being unique, you might want to consider rethinking your approach to making music. I mean this in all seriousness.

Gonna put my previous answer to your question differently in case you just didn't understand the phrasing:Loud starts in the arrangement and the sounds you chose. Just making a bloody mess in production and then spending hours EQing and limiting everything is the wrong approach and wil NEVER work!
Instead keep it simple. One sound per freq range, don't let all the sounds "hit" at the same time. Don't layer just for the sake of it. If you do learn about phase!
This is golden advice - heed it if you want to develop your skills
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Old 6th December 2012 | Show parent
  #102
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelistics ➑️
One sound per freq range, don't let all the sounds "hit" at the same time. Don't layer just for the sake of it. If you do learn about phase!
One sound per freq range? What if I need to use three guitar lines? That is how I try to make my songs unique afterall.

How can I tell if I "mixed" correctly anyway?
Old 6th December 2012
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clo17 ➑️
One sound per freq range? What if I need to use three guitar lines? That is how I try to make my songs unique afterall.

How can I tell if I "mixed" correctly anyway?
... Cant say with 100% certainty that this is a troll but....



Sent from my GT-I9100P using Gearslutz App
Old 6th December 2012 | Show parent
  #104
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x ➑️
... Cant say with 100% certainty that this is a troll but....



Sent from my GT-I9100P using Gearslutz App


Really? =.= I'm a "troll"?

The above proves otherwise.
Old 6th December 2012 | Show parent
  #105
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🎧 15 years
It's like preaching to a brickwall

Seriously, the best advice in this thread is get your mixing and producing skills up first. Then worry about mastering.

Is the last track you posted intentionally out of tune ?
Old 6th December 2012 | Show parent
  #106
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🎧 5 years
I like mastering. It makes my heart warm and the sun shine.
Old 7th December 2012 | Show parent
  #107
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick ➑️
It's like preaching to a brickwall

Seriously, the best advice in this thread is get your mixing and producing skills up first. Then worry about mastering.

Is the last track you posted intentionally out of tune ?


Yea I may need a re-record...
Old 8th December 2012
  #108
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I can hear the passion in that track but my 2c, i wouldnt worry about mastering yet, focus on mixing and arrangement (why you got the same part all the way through that song?)
Old 8th December 2012 | Show parent
  #109
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x ➑️
I can hear the passion in that track but my 2c, i wouldnt worry about mastering yet, focus on mixing and arrangement (why you got the same part all the way through that song?)
Er, I mentioned "mastering" and "limiter" because I've already finished "mixing" (I wouldn't say that because that sounds DJ-like).

I don't get what one of the guys meant, "one sound per freq range" and I don't think it's possible anyway because my instrumentation is different from everyone else. Hip hop might be something easy to master because it's too minimal and involving no talent at all, but that's not the route I'm looking to go (besides, it's too slow).

FOR THE LAST TIME, STOP MENTIONING "MIXING"! I'LL TWEAK AS I GO!

Can we please discuss things about the limiter first? Wait, where was I? Oh...

Okay two things:

One, I found out Steve Ouimette uses the RETRO STA-LEVEL compressor. The problem is, it's not available on MusiciansFriend. Is there a similar compressor (that is a peak limiter) that's available on that site?

Two, I have the TLs maximizer. Is that a good one to use (to match up against madeon) and if yes, should I use it on Cubase 5 or Sound Forge (I don't think Cubase 5 might not be a good idea because I noticed every Cubase 5 export is always has the same loudness or less, but it might not be difficult to tell without trying)? How do I apply it on Sound Forge anyway (for those who think I should use the TLs maximizer on Sound Forge)?
Old 8th December 2012 | Show parent
  #110
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🎧 10 years
The mix defines the potential for the master.


A ****ty mix has the potential for a shined up ****ty master at best.


A great mix with excellent production will make a fantastic master if done right.


The listener responds to emotional content of the song, not the overall volume.


Limiting to any great degree in an attempt to be overly "loud", removes both the balls and the feel from your track.


Work your production skills until the listener wants to turn up the track all by them-self to bask in the glory of your musical genius.


Compete on creativity, not volume - that's a dead end street.


Mastering is not just about "making it loud as so & so", but rather about framing the song for best delivery & translation.


Get it?


Old 8th December 2012 | Show parent
  #111
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🎧 5 years
Also, DJs have gain knobs, and when the next track in the set is louder, they might turn it down to make the transition smoother.
Old 8th December 2012 | Show parent
  #112
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe ➑️
The mix defines the potential for the master.


A ****ty mix has the potential for a shined up ****ty master at best.


A great mix with excellent production will make a fantastic master if done right.


The listener responds to emotional content of the song, not the overall volume.


Limiting to any great degree in an attempt to be overly "loud", removes both the balls and the feel from your track.


Work your production skills until the listener wants to turn up the track all by them-self to bask in the glory of your musical genius.


Compete on creativity, not volume - that's a dead end street.


Mastering is not just about "making it loud as so & so", but rather about framing the song for best delivery & translation.


Get it?


What did I just say prior to that post? =_=

Quote:
Originally Posted by clo17

FOR THE LAST TIME, STOP MENTIONING "MIXING"! I'LL TWEAK AS I GO!
I get all that, but "mixing" is the least of my worries right now. Such response has nothing to do with what I need. This thread is not about mixing at all. I asked what I should do for the mastering part, so let's just focus on that. I already know it has to sound good first before applying mastering to increase loudness and doing some additional touches on it, but the problem is making those last steps of loudness increase and the last touches.

UPDATE: Discuss "mixing" here: https://gearspace.com/board/work-pro...king-help.html

This thread is not about "mixing," okee?
Old 8th December 2012
  #113
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🎧 10 years
Ok you clearly don't get it - read this thread for enlightenment:


https://gearspace.com/board/electron...more-than.html


The mix defines the potential for the master.
Old 9th December 2012 | Show parent
  #114
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe ➑️
Ok you clearly don't get it - read this thread for enlightenment:


https://gearspace.com/board/electron...more-than.html


The mix defines the potential for the master.
I know, it already said "you can't polish a turd" in a video I've watched. Again, that's the least of my worries (in this thread). Of course I would adjust the Cubase project as I go, but to stop the discussion from getting off topic I've set up another thread so I can get help on the "mixing" part (there is a problem I'm facing there too). For now can we please discuss what are the steps to take after the "mixing" (I just don't use that term)?

So the limiter is one thing, what else do I have to do during the mastering phase? What signs will determine that I need to go back and adjust (is it a specific noise, is it the mixdown going all distorted when only a little bit of loudness is added, etc)?

Again, for the last time, stop saying any more of that "the mixing determines the potential towards mastering" crap. That's off-topic. I already heard that a billion times and I've set up another thread so I can get help on that part as well. Stop assuming I'm a noob or something.

I'm not saying I disagree that mixing is the most important part. I'm saying that it's just that it's off-topic here.
Old 9th December 2012 | Show parent
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clo17 ➑️
[FONT="Century Gothic"]For now can we please discuss what are the steps to take after the "mixing" (I just don't use that term)?

So the limiter is one thing, what else do I have to do during the mastering phase? What signs will determine that I need to go back and adjust (is it a specific noise, is it the mixdown going all distorted when only a little bit of loudness is added, etc)?
Hi clo17 !,

I can try to answer some of your questions. I'll preface this to say that I don't intend to tell anyone that it's a good idea to deliberately try to make their finished mixes unnaturally louder. I consider that to be bad advice. My response is intended to help illustrate at a high level how loudness works so that you can apply it to your process. Consider experimenting on your finished mixes with what I suggest below and you'll hear how the changes you make with EQ/compression will affect the loudness.

I don't like using a limiter to boost loudness because they are designed to work on transients. Applying several dB of limiting does technically allow you to then raise the gain of the mix by several dB, but it's at the expense of significant distortion.

Another way to get additional loudness after the mix has been completed by adjusting the tonality, and then increasing the average (RMS) level. Often times it has to be both, because you can have two mixes that are the same average "level" (say -12dBFS) but one might still sound "louder" than the other when played at the same volume level. The reason for that is that our ears are more sensitive to certain frequency ranges than others.

Consider that our hearing is most sensitive in the "speech" region, particularly the upper mids so if you use EQ and compression to your advantage to enhance the track in the areas (boosting upper mids with EQ and/or compression in that area), then your track will sound "louder" than other tracks that are of the same RMS level.

..... doing the above will significantly alter, or even damage the mix from a musical and tonal perspective. You can only go so far. If you go too far, you end up pulling everything too far forward and things can sound very loud and harsh.

If you're hearing distortion when you're trying to get additional loudness, it can be several things - too much bass/low mids in the track, too fast of an attack/release on compression/limiting (compression and limiting will add harmonic distortion, and that distortion increases significantly with faster attack and release settings), too much compression/limiting, too high a compression ratio etc. (again, more compression=more distortion).

I think I remember reading in your original post that you were hoping to preserve dynamics while increasing loudness. The only way to do that is try not to use too much compression. If you do use compression, choose slower attack/release times, lower ratios, and work on the higher frequencies. Avoid limiting if you can, to preserve transients. Work on tonality first (enhancing the upper mids/speech region) and the RMS levels (if necessary) next.

If you wish to apply a lot of compression to get the RMS level of a mix up, then you will most likely need to use EQ the mix first to lessen frequencies that take up more "room" (eg low bass). You can get away with higher attack/release times. Because lower frequencies have longer wavelengths, you need to use longer attack/release times with them (100ms or more if you can) to avoid adding significant harmonic distortion. If you reduce the lower frequencies using EQ first, then you can apply more compression to the mix with less distortion (at the expense of tonality).

I think that covers things at a high level. This is definitely worth experimenting with. I wish you the best of luck with this !

Rob

Last edited by JustMastering; 11th December 2012 at 11:26 PM.. Reason: Removed an accidental incorrect statement.
Old 9th December 2012
  #116
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Thanks JM - really interesting post.
Old 9th December 2012 | Show parent
  #117
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpusOfTrolls ➑️
Also, DJs have gain knobs, and when the next track in the set is louder, they might turn it down to make the transition smoother.
overaggressive limiting has never been done for DJs or club systems, it is generally done for the listeners at home...
Old 9th December 2012 | Show parent
  #118
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Icarus by Madeon. I had a listen on my meter on youtube and it was smashed to -3db for most of it.
Your track is smashed to +1db.

Your noisy guitar pickup noise and needs a noise gate and cleaned up. I think the guitar is a bit out of tune too so better to redo it. Well played though.
Old 9th December 2012 | Show parent
  #119
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinksdingo ➑️
Icarus by Madeon. I had a listen on my meter on youtube and it was smashed to -3db for most of it.
Your track is smashed to +1db.

Your noisy guitar pickup noise and needs a noise gate and cleaned up. I think the guitar is a bit out of tune too so better to redo it. Well played though.
Why does the madeon one sound louder then? At least I jumped over deadmau5 in my recent mastering... It literally took five TLs Maximizers and a Cubase compressor on the master output at once. Then I took it to Sound Forge. At least that did make a difference in terms of loudness.

I checked the tuning right before I recorded the guitar. It was actually in tune (I used Drop C, by the way). As for the noise on the pickup and making the recording sound amateurish, that was intentional. Wait, that's Winter Resort, yea, Season's Greetings needs a re-record. I dunno if I can find the time for that, though.

Now the next problem is... noise removal. TT_TT For those who are going to say it's the "mixing" again, please explain what exactly I have to adjust via mail, because it's off-topic, not because I disagree.

Then again, sometimes the noise is intentional. :<
Old 9th December 2012 | Show parent
  #120
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by clo17 ➑️
Why does the madeon one sound louder then? At least I jumped over deadmau5 in my recent mastering... It literally took five TLs Maximizers and a Cubase compressor on the master output at once. Then I took it to Sound Forge. At least that did make a difference in terms of loudness.

I checked the tuning right before I recorded the guitar. It was actually in tune (I used Drop C, by the way). As for the noise on the pickup and making the recording sound amateurish, that was intentional. Wait, that's Winter Resort, yea, Season's Greetings needs a re-record. I dunno if I can find the time for that, though.

Now the next problem is... noise removal. TT_TT For those who are going to say it's the "mixing" again, please explain what exactly I have to adjust via mail, because it's off-topic, not because I disagree.

Then again, sometimes the noise is intentional. :<
i think you may confuse loudness with fullness, loss of dynamics isn't everything. Deadmau5 tracks are all around 5-7db dynamic range during the full sections.
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