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Problem with Sequoia moving track markers in DDP?
Old 18th November 2009
  #1
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Darius van H's Avatar
 
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Problem with Sequoia moving track markers in DDP?

I guess the title says it all.

Has anybody else noticed that when you make a DDP master in Sequoia the track markers get moved? It's normally a very small amount and not usually a problem, but when you've got very tight markers with two tracks that run in to each other, it can be troublesome.

I've noticed this behaviour since i started using Sequoia (since V10)
Old 18th November 2009
  #2
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hams's Avatar
 
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Are you relying on Sequoia's software SRC, or is your session in 44.1 khz?
Old 18th November 2009 | Show parent
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Do you have the global offset checkbox checked?
Old 18th November 2009 | Show parent
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Darius van H's Avatar
 
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No SRC.

Chris, thanks, do you mean the "Use Global CD Offset" tickbox in the Marker / CD inde manager?...if so, i always have that ticked (don't know why actually, it's the default i think)
Old 19th November 2009
  #5
Mastering
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius van H ➑️
I guess the title says it all.

Has anybody else noticed that when you make a DDP master in Sequoia the track markers get moved? It's normally a very small amount and not usually a problem, but when you've got very tight markers with two tracks that run in to each other, it can be troublesome.

I've noticed this behaviour since i started using Sequoia (since V10)
Do you mean when you do a DDP loadback? To my knowledge they don't move, I haven't noticed. Please be more specific, you're saying the track markers move in the DDP loadback check compared to the source, and by how much? Is it consistent for you?
Old 19th November 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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Once upon a time, CD markers would move to the nearest frame (ie 75 fps CD time). Makes a certain amount of sense... There were also some "smart" moves so that if you had a marker that was closer to a later frame, but had audio before, it would move to the earlier frame (hope that makes sense- basically so you wouldn't ever cut audio out).

What version are you working with and how much frame movement are you seeing?

--Ben
Old 19th November 2009
  #7
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mischa janisch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius van H ➑️
I guess the title says it all.

Has anybody else noticed that when you make a DDP master in Sequoia the track markers get moved? It's normally a very small amount and not usually a problem, but when you've got very tight markers with two tracks that run in to each other, it can be troublesome.

I've noticed this behaviour since i started using Sequoia (since V10)
I've had this problem since using Samplitude 7 and DDP Xport years ago (track markers beeing a little 'late' in loadback) - while I believe it's gotten better I still have this problem occationally with Sequoia 11.

I try to avoid tight track markers since I don't know if this is a problem with a faulty loadback or if the trackmarkers already drift when generating the DDP.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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Ok, so it seems like Mischa is seeing exactly the same problem as me.

So the big question is, is the track marker being moved during the creation of the DDP, or during the re-import of the DDP to check?
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius van H ➑️
No SRC.

Chris, thanks, do you mean the "Use Global CD Offset" tickbox in the Marker / CD inde manager?...if so, i always have that ticked (don't know why actually, it's the default i think)
I don't use Sequoia so I'm guessing on this - but isn't this applying a default PQ offset so that every track marker will move earlier by the frame amount you have set for the PQ offset?

Can you uncheck this box and check your results then? I'd say this is the root of your problem. fwiw - I always set my offsets manually and don't have a default PQ offset enabled in the authoring apps I use. I just like to have exact control of my indexes and like to have things be "what you see is what you get."

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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as others have said - - I'd look at offsets or guess you're placing markers at (for instance) 30 NDF and they are being moved by the software to 75 frame locations - could be an import or export function I suppose.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenMarsh ➑️
as others have said - - I'd look at offsets or guess you're placing markers at (for instance) 30 NDF and they are being moved by the software to 75 frame locations - could be an import or export function I suppose.
One of the things I like about SAWStudio is that when you insert in an index it automatically places it at the nearest CD frame - it won't allow itself to be put at any point in between - so that where your indexes are is where they will stay (unless you have an optional PQ offset selected).

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius van H ➑️
Ok, so it seems like Mischa is seeing exactly the same problem as me.

So the big question is, is the track marker being moved during the creation of the DDP, or during the re-import of the DDP to check?
I'd test the import with a 3rd party DDP player / reader such as the Sonoris DDP player. DDP Player - Sonoris Audio Engineering
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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I have no offset set for my projects.

About the nearest frame thing: i remember in older versions of Samp, you couldn't just put a CD marker where you wanted to.........it would "snap" to the nearest......?.....frame?

In the version of Sequoia I'm using now (10.21) you can put the markers anywhere you want. Is this the problem? They're being "quantized" or something when the DDP is made? Actually, could someone explain what and why a frame is on an audio CD?........this isn't film, so why frames? (sorry if this is a dumb question!)
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius van H ➑️
I have no offset set for my projects.

About the nearest frame thing: i remember in older versions of Samp, you couldn't just put a CD marker where you wanted to.........it would "snap" to the nearest......?.....frame?

In the version of Sequoia I'm using now (10.21) you can put the markers anywhere you want. Is this the problem?
Yes - an index point MUST occur only at the start of CD frame - of which there are 75 per second.

Quote:
They're being "quantized" or something when the DDP is made?
Must be - as otherwise the DDP would be illegally formatted and would be rejected when they tried to make a glass master from it.

Quote:
Actually, could someone explain what and why a frame is on an audio CD?........this isn't film, so why frames? (sorry if this is a dumb question!)
75 frames a second is the defined structure for a CD for the smallest time difference that an index point can placed on. Same as 44.1kHz is the defined sample rate, and 16bit is the defined bit depth.

There's technical reasons why this was defined this way that if you really want to know a Google search can pull up some documents explaining - but the short of it is that the TOC definitions are restricted to only having an index place at one of the 75 frames per second rather than at anywhere you want them to. Makes it simpler to encode this way.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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Steve, as always, i mine of information!

I'm pretty sure the markers are being moved by a lot more then 1/75th of a second.

Hang on, i'll check it and report back.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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Darius van H's Avatar
 
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I was mistaken, the marker was moved backwards in time (so, to the right) by only 546 samples.

44100 / 75 = 588

So it could be that Sequoia moves markers backwards to the nearest frame.

Soooooooooo, is there maybe a setting somewhere in Samquoiatude to snap markers to the nearest frame?

ho-hum
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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Darius van H's Avatar
 
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Found it,

doh!

(units of measurement needs to be set to CD MSF, then turn "snap" on before assigning markers)

I love you guys, group hug!
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