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FLAC is our current best hope for the future of fidelity
Old 12th August 2010 | Show parent
  #122
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807Recordings's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
There is a simple reason flac will never be the main-stay in audio.
From a consumer point of view (correct me if I am wrong) it is too difficult to use.

Why has Apple always succeeded?
Reason is ergonomics.
Buy a M4P file off iTunes and you get the artwork and music all in one. Simple no fuss.
Flac does is not a container format so to the average consumer it is too difficult. Add in the largest supplier of modern distribution (Apple) who does not support this and it is sunk. I guess they could contain it in a quick time or similar container but until that time forgetaboutit.

However on the DJ side sources like beatport already have the option to choose the full uncompressed wave file. Many DJ's use this instead of mp3 ;-)
Old 12th August 2010 | Show parent
  #123
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Teddy Ray's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 807Recordings ➡️
There is a simple reason flac will never be the main-stay in audio.
From a consumer point of view (correct me if I am wrong) it is too difficult to use.

Why has Apple always succeeded?
Reason is ergonomics.
Buy a M4P file off iTunes and you get the artwork and music all in one. Simple no fuss.
Flac does is not a container format so to the average consumer it is too difficult. Add in the largest supplier of modern distribution (Apple) who does not support this and it is sunk. I guess they could contain it in a quick time or similar container but until that time forgetaboutit.

However on the DJ side sources like beatport already have the option to choose the full uncompressed wave file. Many DJ's use this instead of mp3 ;-)
Flac is not sunk..AT ALL. There are scores of products that support FLAC right out of the box..

the latest
The Beatles have released 14 re-mastered albums in 24-bit FLAC on a themed USB drive.

Paul McCartney's side project The Fireman has released its new album Electric Arguments as a digital download, and available in FLAC.

Songbird, a new open and customizable music player, is out and it supports FLAC natively. For Mac, Linux, and Windows.

The Squeezebox Boom is out: Slim Devices' latest home audio player weds their award-winning receiver with built-in speakers and as always has excellent FLAC support out of the box.

David Byrne and Brian Eno's new album Everything That Happens Will Happen Today is also available in FLAC.

Pearl Jam is bringing back their "bootleg" program for their upcoming 2008 tour. Shows will be available for download in FLAC and MP3.

TrondheimSolistene has released its new album Divertimenti in an interesting array of formats, including both 5.1 and stereo 24bit/96kHz FLAC downloads.

HDtracks offers their large music catalog in FLAC, AIFF, and MP3, and plans to offer 96kHz/24-bit FLAC files soon.

A new site called indietorrent.org is up and running. indietorrent.org is a digital music store which "enables independent musicians to sell their own music while keeping all profits." FLAC is one of the available formats.

The new Opus No.4 and Melody No.2 digital audio players from Olive support FLAC streams up to 96kHz/24bit and embedded cover-art, and feature hi-res color touchscreens and up to 1TB storage. Stay tuned for a review here in May.

The T+A E-Series Music Player supports FLAC.

FLAC love has spread to the New York Times in this article on digital music in the home. The Squeezebox, Sonos, and McIntosh also get nods.

The Teclast M25 portable supports FLAC.

The H-QuAD project aims to create a FLAC decoder core implemented entirely in hardware.

The McIntosh MS750 music server supports FLAC.

A few new portables support FLAC: the Onda VX888, the Ainol U80SE, the Epoq EMP-TS30-4, and the WindTouch V80.

Ripfactory has announced the Ripserver, a sleek NAS with a slot-loading CD drive. Pop in a CD and it automatically rips to FLAC or MP3 and adds it to the media library. Ripserver can also run Slimserver and Twonkymedia for easy integration with Slim Devices, Sonos, and many other networked media players.

Merge Records just launched their online store where you can buy albums in FLAC format.

The Video Touch PMP from PlayTomato supports FLAC.

Nine Inch Nails' Ghosts I-IV is on sale, with a FLAC download option.

Escient's Fireball S-E500i music server is their latest in a long line with FLAC support.

The Celrun TV, an interesting HD multimedia player, supports FLAC.

Gimell Records offers their catalog of The Tallis Scholars in FLAC format in three versions: "CD Quality" at 16-bit/44.1kHz, "Studio Master" at 16-bit/88.2kHz, and "Studio Master Pro" at 24-bit/88.2kHz.

Trent Reznor recently wrote about the sales numbers for Niggy Tardust, including that almost 20% of paying downloaders chose FLAC format.

The Eagles' latest album Long Road Out Of Eden has also been released in FLAC format (including the deluxe edition).

The European Broadcasting Union has adopted FLAC for distribution of audio over its Euroradio network.

FLAC - links

FLAC - links
Old 12th August 2010 | Show parent
  #124
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807Recordings's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
^^ you can name all those bands again but all it is IS the same old tracks over and over.
BIG WOOP! and that is why the new generation don't care.

Although much of the music I like and would like in my collection the new generation don't care. And a bigger point if you can download 300MB file you can Download 360MB file of wave.


flac will not go anywhere big just like SACD or DVDA.
Old 12th August 2010 | Show parent
  #125
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Why the bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 807Recordings ➡️
^^ you can name all those bands again but all it is IS the same old tracks over and over.
BIG WOOP! and that is why the new generation don't care.

Although much of the music I like and would like in my collection the new generation don't care. And a bigger point if you can download 300MB file you can Download 360MB file of wave.


flac will not go anywhere big just like SACD or DVDA.
It's true that the market always determines the outcome of a product / format viability. However, Teddy's points are well-taken; every day there are more and more devices available that support FLAC as well as sites that provide content in FLAC.

Granted, there will always be those for whom heavily compressed, poor-sounding content is 'enough', but the fact is that unlike SACD or DVDA, in many cases (not all, but many) no particular application-specific hardware is required for FLAC.

Indeed, there are even third-party apps that can be loaded onto existing mp3 players to allow FLAC playback, and this was a key reason why SACD and DVDA didn't 'take'. That is, no one wanted to obsolete their existing hardware.

FLAC solves the issue in that it's fully lossless and does not require (in many cases at least) hardware to be replaced just to access content in its format. Plus, it's open-source and widely supported.

True, if Apple were to get fully behind FLAC then there would be greater still market penetration, and if it makes marketing sense, Apple would indeed get behind it. Steve Jobs may be hubris personified, but he's not an idiot.
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #126
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🎧 15 years
My question about FLAC and other lossless codecs is why do labels charge more for these formats than lossy ones? It's not like it costs more to provide high resolution files.
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #127
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Perhaps...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler ➡️
My question about FLAC and other lossless codecs is why do labels charge more for these formats than lossy ones? It's not like it costs more to provide high resolution files.
...it's related to bandwidth? I mean, if you are speaking about charging more for a FLAC download, then it's true that per unit time, fewer (high-res) files can be 'serviced' by a given amount of bandwidth. Lossy formats (especially when you get into the sub 192 kbps codecs) are considerably smaller than is FLAC, and as such, more lossy files can be sold (downloaded) in a given period of time than lossless formats.

Perhaps that's their 'argument' for charging more...you know...like a burdened cost of doing business; like in any business, if the volume drops (and it would for a given bandwidth), then increases in piece price 'seem' reasopnable if the projected revenue stream is to be maintained.

Last edited by Mark A. Jay; 13th August 2010 at 04:25 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #128
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark A. Jay ➡️
...it's related to bandwidth? I mean, if you are speaking about charging more for a FLAC download, then it's true that per unit time, fewer (high-res) files can be 'serviced' by a given amount of bandwidth. Lossy formats (especially when you get into the sub 192 kbps codecs) are considerably smaller than is FLAC, and as such, more lossy files can be sold (downloaded) in a given period of time than lossless formats.

Perhaps that's their 'argument' for charging more...you know...like a burdened cost of doing business; like in any business, if the volume drops (and it would for a given bandwidth), then increases in piece price 'seem' reasopnable if the projected revenue stream is to be maintained.
I see your point about bandwidth, but I wonder if FLAC files were priced the same as MP3s if that would lead to a higher level of acceptance amongst the general buying public.
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #129
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler ➡️
I see your point about bandwidth, but I wonder if FLAC files were priced the same as MP3s if that would lead to a higher level of acceptance amongst the general buying public.
I hate to be a cynic, but let's be realistic - people like 'us' (those who live for great fidelity) are a breed apart from the rest of the general public, but of greater import, those who 'push' the mp3s are doing so to maximize the profit of the companies for which they work. There is nothing wrong with that (not at all) because after all, it's a business. However, what we need are more people who actually care, and it has started in many cases by having the artists specify that their music be made available in FLAC.
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #130
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Teddy Ray's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler ➡️
My question about FLAC and other lossless codecs is why do labels charge more for these formats than lossy ones? It's not like it costs more to provide high resolution files.
like Mark said.. bandwidth.
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #131
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aleatoric's Avatar
 
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I really wish there was some sort of portable FLAC player with a decent DAC, good battery like and at least 50GB of storage at a reasonable price. Probably asking a lot there though. This thing looks pretty interesting but is more than I would like to spend on such a device:

Head-Direct HiFiMan HM-801 Audio Player | Wired.com Product Reviews
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #132
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Well...what about Rockbox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleatoric ➡️
I really wish there was some sort of portable FLAC player with a decent DAC, good battery like and at least 50GB of storage at a reasonable price. Probably asking a lot there though. This thing looks pretty interesting but is more than I would like to spend on such a device:

Head-Direct HiFiMan HM-801 Audio Player | Wired.com Product Reviews
I actually have an old iRiver H-140 that I upgraded to a 60GB drive and it has stellar battery life (on the order of 15 hours playing 320 kbps mp3's). I know that a lot of people have loaded Rockbox onto that player and use FLAC on it. I have yet to do it with mine, but I know that Rockbox works on many different players and thus, allows support of FLAC.

Check this link; you may already be in a position to convert your existing mp3 player to FLAC compatability: Rockbox - Open Source Jukebox Firmware

Cheers...
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark A. Jay ➡️
Check this link; you may already be in a position to convert your existing mp3 player to FLAC compatability: Rockbox - Open Source Jukebox Firmware
I actually was running rockbox on my 5th generation ipod. It took a turn for the worse recently and the hard drive failed. The new ipods do not work with rockbox and I am reluctant to get an older one and install rockbox again.
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #134
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Ah...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleatoric ➡️
I actually was running rockbox on my 5th generation ipod. It took a turn for the worse recently and the hard drive failed. The new ipods do not work with rockbox and I am reluctant to get an older one and install rockbox again.
Sorry to hear of your misfortune - I thought I was being helpful.

I can see both sides, but I personally would not be hesitant to get an older mp3 player (for cheap on ebay) and load up Rockbox. I have had great luck with my iRiver (admittedly not running Rockbox - yet) and it's been so dependable...plus...unlike proprietary hardware, it just shows up as another USB drive, so you can drag / drop etc without having to go through music management software (i.e. iTunes).
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #135
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aleatoric's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark A. Jay ➡️
I thought I was being helpful.
You were being helpful! thumbsup

I am not even entirely sure if rockbox is even what caused my hard drive failure. I just think it would be cool if there was a more of an "off the shelf" option.
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #136
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JustinAiken's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Just get a 160GB iPod Classic, and convert all your FLACs to ALAC in one batch...
Old 13th August 2010 | Show parent
  #137
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Or, you could...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinAiken ➡️
Just get a 160GB iPod Classic, and convert all your FLACs to ALAC in one batch...
...give your money to a company that believes in open-source lossless codecs; instead, buy a product that does not require you to convert from an open-source lossless codec to a proprietary one...

I'm just sayin' ...
Old 14th August 2010 | Show parent
  #138
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark A. Jay ➡️
Teddy - this is one righteous list! Thanks a TON.
wow didn't know of most of these, gonna look up the ones offering EDM :D THANX ALOT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 807Recordings ➡️
Buy a M4P file off iTunes and you get the artwork and music all in one.
Buy at Juno, you get to choose whether you want flac/wav, whether you want albumart or not, and how you want your music to be named (artist/title/album/folder sequence etc.), and you get bulk discount 1 track ~2 €, a release of 4 ~6 euro, a release of 15 and up ~15 euro. There are releases of 100 tracks and more, meaning you get a track for 15 cent, of course the chance you like em all is small, but still if you like 50% you get a great price.
BTW those settings aren't mandatory, you can also download them rightaway.
Quote:
However on the DJ side sources like beatport already have the option to choose the full uncompressed wave file. Many DJ's use this instead of mp3 ;-)
I use beatport only when it is not available in all the other shops using wav. because it is so RIDICULOUSLY expensive.. wav handling 1 euro/track.. wtf.
(no rant against u, against BP)


Totally agree with Mark, ALAC is r-trded What is the point of listening to a lossless format anyways when apple devices lack decent DACs/OPAMPS (or configuration of those at least)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleatoric ➡️
I really wish there was some sort of portable FLAC player with a decent DAC, good battery like and at least 50GB of storage at a reasonable price. Probably asking a lot there though. This thing looks pretty interesting but is more than I would like to spend on such a device:

Head-Direct HiFiMan HM-801 Audio Player | Wired.com Product Reviews
WATCH OUT! that thing isn't even using the 16/44.1khz potential..
see here why it does not only NOT appeal to the eye, but also the ear:
Hifiman HM-801 RMAA Tests - General MP3 Player / PMP Discussion - abi>>forums
better take cowon or sansa clip if you want the best portable earcandy possible.
Old 15th August 2010 | Show parent
  #139
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Tarekith's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquinox ➡️
I use beatport only when it is not available in all the other shops using wav. because it is so RIDICULOUSLY expensive.. wav handling 1 euro/track.. wtf.
It's always interesting to see the DJs that never grew up in the vinyl era. Paying for a wav is still less than half the price a vinyl used to be, I don't miss dropping $100 for 10 tunes at all.
Old 15th August 2010 | Show parent
  #140
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Cellotron's Avatar
 
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleatoric ➡️
I actually was running rockbox on my 5th generation ipod. It took a turn for the worse recently and the hard drive failed. The new ipods do not work with rockbox and I am reluctant to get an older one and install rockbox again.
Sanza Fuze or View are FLAC compatible from the get go and feature excellent bang for buck, especially considering they have a MicroSD slot so you can expand the memory to well beyond what an iPod can have, just by swapping cards. Their gui or screen might not be as slick as an iPod Touch - but if you just want to actually play music and don't worry as much about th eye candy I'd say they are offer an excellent option.

SanDisk® Sansa® - Your Ideal Portable Music Machine | SanDisk

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 15th August 2010 | Show parent
  #141
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huejahfink's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarekith ➡️
It's always interesting to see the DJs that never grew up in the vinyl era. Paying for a wav is still less than half the price a vinyl used to be, I don't miss dropping $100 for 10 tunes at all.
Well I definitely grew up in the vinyl era. It doesn't change the fact that the costs involved in making and storing a vinyl record are far far greater than the costs involved in storing and delivering a track length 16/44.1 wav file.
Beatports policy on wavs IS ridiculous.

I really like the store policy of digital-tunes.net
They may not have the expansive library that Beatport have, but you pay one price per track (generally the equal or cheaper price than you would pay for the mp3 in Beatport), and can then download the tune in either 320mp3 or flac or both, at any point you decide. This seems very fair and reasonable to me.
Old 15th August 2010 | Show parent
  #142
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarekith ➡️
It's always interesting to see the DJs that never grew up in the vinyl era. Paying for a wav is still less than half the price a vinyl used to be, I don't miss dropping $100 for 10 tunes at all.
Don't take out of the equation that the vinyl, the pressing of it, the transportation, the shop, shop/office staff and packaging costed money as well. This isn't the case for online music downloads. The only things are bandwidth, staff, office space (which can be really small) and harddrives which are extremely cheap now, for the generic consumer 0.04 euro /gigabyte, remove tax and add bulk discount and you can get to around 2 cent per gigabyte easily.

I'm happy because I can play in the sun without melting my tracks (oops my players have a vinyl scratchplate, still need to prevent my decks getting tan) and have tracks for less than 2 euro at most shops, which are online so I have to go to music stores very few times (when I see one I go in for fun, not to find a track/release I specifically want most of the times), while I just carry 2 harddrives inst3ad of many vinyl crates weighing a ton each, with the best possible sound quality (only limiting factors r speakers @ venue + quality of recordings).
You actually don't like the fact that you get a whole album on cd for the same/lower price as 1 vinyl ?
xD

Add another 1 to the list, WAV, FLAC MP3, custom filenaming+integrated albumart , very wide selection of EDM and pretty low price per track:
Juno Download
Old 16th August 2010 | Show parent
  #143
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
New (FLAC) life for an old (but reliable) mp3 player

So...

I took the plunge and loaded Rockbox on to my old, reliable iHP-140 iRiver (one that I had modified to a 60GB HD several years ago when the player went flying into the pavement as I was jogging) mp3 player. It took me all of about ten minutes to load Rockbox...and it cost me nothing; if it's free, it's for me.

Wow.

Stellar GUI and tons of features, as well as FLAC support. It's truly like having a new mp3 player that keeps the original functionality (mp3 player, recorder, FM tuner, optical I/O) as well as tons of more 'modern' conveniences that had not been conceived of when the player was first released.

Some other folks on iRiver forum (misticriver) have commented on something I had been entertaining (and that they had achieved), namely, replacing the hard drive with a solid state hard drive - I think, so far, folks have been able to convert their iHP-140 / H-140 mp3 players to 128 GB SSHD, but I suspect that 256 SSHD would also be supported (if pricey).

Just think...no platters to spin, and tons more room, and certainly more battery life than the already (very good) 15 hours I have been used to getting (and still do, mind you, with the original battery).

Granted, it would be a somewhat expensive solution, but then again, to have that much storage, and using a solid state drive while getting a nice GUI and access to open-source FLAC...well, what's not to like?

Frankly, rather than give your mp3 money to companies that shun FLAC, why not buy a decent used mp3 player on eBay and load rockbox?

Here's the URL: http://build.rockbox.org/

Last edited by Mark A. Jay; 16th August 2010 at 08:36 PM.. Reason: added the rockbox URL
Old 16th August 2010 | Show parent
  #144
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Ironic, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz ➡️
Actually, FLAC is a great format, the only obstacle to it is that Apple is not playing nice, they don't support it because they have a competing lossless format for Itunes.

BK
Bob said it correctly (if politely) - Apple does not apparently want to "play nice".

The irony here is that back in the day when the MAC was first introduced (1984), Apple really projected and had the non-corporate persona of the entrepreneurial spirit incarnate (remember the tag line "Think Different"?). Getting back to iconic imagery...I personally cannot erase that (great) TV spot from my memory - the one that had very Orwellian underpinings - where the woman throws the hammer into the large TV screen - remember it? If not, you might find this enjoyable: 1984

One thing I found of interest in the copy on that URL was the following (I underlined the key phrase that most resonated within me):

"Six months before we knew about Mac, we had this new ad that read, "Why 1984 won't be like 1984," reveals Lee Clow, creative director at Chiat/Day. "It explained Apple's philosophy and purpose; that people, not just government and big corporations, should run technology. If computers aren't to take over our lives, they have to be accessible."

That ad was all about conveying 'freedom' and creative thinking, and while no one had even conceived of mp3 players, one could conceivably extend this thought to computer(based) appliances.

So, it seems ironic that something like FLAC, which serves the collective good of high fidelity and is widely supported (and gaining support every day) has been locked out of the company's music products simply so that the Apple format can become dominant.

As a business strategy, I 'get it', I really do. However, it feels to me like they have lost their entrepreneurial focus to some degree, and have also become somewhat punitive to boot (if you want lossless, it's got to be ours - kind of like Henry Ford's saying "you can have any color you like, as long as it's black").

It reminds me of that line from the Ben Folds tune "The Ascent of Stan"...and I quote Mr. Folds:

Stan: Once you wanted revolution
Stan: Now you're the institution
Stan: How's it feel to be the man?
It's no fun to be the man

While it may not be fun to be the man, perhaps it's time for Mr. Jobs et al to "Think Different" once more.

Last edited by Mark A. Jay; 16th August 2010 at 09:09 PM.. Reason: typos
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #145
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for all the links, I'm going to check them out. However my experience is that most of the FLAC sites carry largely classical and/or up and coming artists not many of the big names (not meant as an insult).

I think that at least part of the blame should go to the labels. I suspect they LIKE the fact that only degraded quality is available, as if they are some how stopping piracy.
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #146
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Perhaps...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ofsaints ➡️
I think that at least part of the blame should go to the labels. I suspect they LIKE the fact that only degraded quality is available, as if they are some how stopping piracy.
Does anyone recall when the RIAA went up to the Hill and tried to get the blank cassette tax? Remember, that was in the days when we had to transcribe our music from vinyl (or other medium) to cassette - and in real time. The argument was that they were losing out on royalties (the same argument they waged against the napster's et al in the 'old days' of mp3 proliferation) and so a blank cassette tax ensured that they could recoup monies lost to 'piracy'. The truth is that many bands profit from file sharing - people become aware of a band, pay to see them live, and often then buy their music later. We all know this, and we all have seen it.

Anyway, back to the 80's...once the labels / RIAA realized that they just could not stop the home-taping frenzy, and they saw the proposed blank cassette tax fail, that's when they got into mass duplication, and at speeds higher than 1 7/8 ips so that they could mass-produce (and quickly) music on cassette. Sure, they all knew that the audio suffered as a consequence (speeding up a tape by 10x and the companion cassette writing speed ensured that the top end was rolled off / saturated) did a huge number on the high-frequency response of cassettes. The labels truly did not care about fidelity - they cared about stopping the home taping and sold the consumer a bill of goods ("hey kids...our pre-made is as 'just as good' as your home-made cassettes...so don't waste your money on a decent cassette deck and have to spend all that time waiting to record...you can have it right now") in order to control their revenue stream. All those people who invested money in decent cassette decks (made by companies who actually cared about fidelity) were made to look like they were foolish for having invested in a cassette deck...but we all knew better. Didn't we?

Compressed audio (low bitrate mp3 et al) is the modern day equivalent of the high-speed, mass-duplicated cassette industry. Indeed, the labels know that low bitrate mp3's sound like straight up a##, but they don't really care. Maybe it's as you say, a means (or a perceived means) of combatting piracy...but I can't say.

Ultimately, and lest you think otherwise, the labels have little interest in maintaining fidelity (I find the irony palpable - as technology advances the potential state of the art, commerce creates a road-block to its acceptance). However, certain artists who are now more market savvy insist on being able to release their product in (at least) high bitrate mp3 or alternatives such as FLAC. The main goal of any label is revenue, and revenue is there raison d'etre, pure and simple. Thus, FLAC and other formats like it will and can only be promoted as an alternative if the artists themselves take steps to ensure that their work is released with all of its fidelity intact.

So, if you want to see FLAC and similar formats get as much play, one of two things must happen. First, the bandwidth of providers must increase commensurately. Maybe fiber lines would do that, but their market penetration is still not as pervasive as other technologies. This brings the second option to the fray; increase the downlaod price of FLAC (and similar) to account for the fact that fewer files can be sold (per unit time).

Like anyting, the consumers need to be educated as to what they are getting at a given price. I suspect that most consumers who have the 'must have it now' itch to scratch would gladly (or even tacitly) pay more for an instant download that is a bit for bit reconstruction of the parent content. Those who could give a rat's a## as to quality can then make the choice to stick with their low bitrate mp3's, and thus, the status quo can be maintained.
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #147
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807Recordings's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
But I think you miss the point in that the idea of the band is dead.
People or new generation are not so into bands but rather electronic music. More ppl I know will go out to a night club where a dj spins than go see a band.

So then comes the problem of independent who sells 500 copies of a album or at most 3K who has his music all over for free.

Total recoup 0%
Total royalties from club 0
Radio 0
etc etc
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #148
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Perhaps for some

Quote:
Originally Posted by 807Recordings ➡️
But I think you miss the point in that the idea of the band is dead.
People or new generation are not so into bands but rather electronic music. More ppl I know will go out to a night club where a dj spins than go see a band.
That may be true for a specific genre or sub-genre, but Bands remain a mainstay for much of the music industry. It may be true that more people go to see / hear a DJ spin, but if you add up all the various genre of music...and the musicians who perform said music live, I have to believe that the scales are tipped on that side rather than the number in clubs listening to DJ's spin.

Moreover, if that were true, radio and streaming, not to mention live concerts such as those seen on Palladium / HDNet would not garner any audience and thus, said broadcasts would cease; I don't see people queuing up to watch an HDNet broadcast of a DJ spinning...
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #149
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807Recordings's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
^^ I can't back it up with stats of course but I would only believe this to be true over on that side of the pond.


I am not saying bands will totally be dead but the old model just does not apply anymore of put 100K to make a record, have corp label promote ya, etc. Its a fat over bloated cow and its just a dead way.

Its independent and direct from the artist and the illegal downloads only hurt these guys. The argue gigs pay is not very good as many artists do not get paid well for gigs. Not everybody is a U2 or Radio head, nor on the "new music" a Jeff Mills or Richie Hawtin.

As for the Flac thing it still is pointless to me. If you can afford to download a flac size you can afford to download a wave.
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #150
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Mark A. Jay's Avatar
You're missing a point or two

Quote:
Originally Posted by 807Recordings ➡️
^^ I can't back it up with stats of course but I would only believe this to be true over on that side of the pond.

I am not saying bands will totally be dead but the old model just does not apply anymore of put 100K to make a record, have corp label promote ya, etc. Its a fat over bloated cow and its just a dead way.

Its independent and direct from the artist and the illegal downloads only hurt these guys. The argue gigs pay is not very good as many artists do not get paid well for gigs. Not everybody is a U2 or Radio head, nor on the "new music" a Jeff Mills or Richie Hawtin.

As for the Flac thing it still is pointless to me. If you can afford to download a flac size you can afford to download a wave.
Remember: .wav files were never standardized (in terms of metadata) beyond "Artist" and "Title". Sure, the header could have easily been standardized for metadata (tags and album art), but it never was - no one had thought that far ahead. There were market forces in-play almost as soon as .wav files became commonplace among audio and music 'types' of people.

FLAC (and Apple's competitive iTunes-based format, ALAC) both support metadata and are approximately 40-50% the size of the .wav file. So, from a marketing perspective (and from the labels' perspectives), downloading / selling .wav files would not have made sense unless the headers had been standardized (they never were)...plus...the earliest media players had very limited storage capability. Also, remember that absent a standard for metadata, in theory a wav file could have been tagged with one standard but not have its metadata read because of non-standardized header formats (and thus metadata); what label on earth would want to have their 'product' have a built in risk of not having its metadata properly read? If nothing else some people would not be able to access all of the metadata. Like it or not, 'brand recognition' also applies to music, so a reliable tagging scheme was a must.

So, add together the limited hard drive storage, poor battery life of players (especially and paradoxically the (early generation) Apple iPod) and the need to support tagging, and now throw in a dose of not-all-that-widespread broadband (at the time), and you can see what otehr elements made for heavily-compressed mp3's to take the stage. Granted, as I poined out, the labels were happy not to have to press and ship CDs, so they really didn't care about fidelity and were all too happy to take money from ill-informed consumers.

As far as your the "Band is Dead" sensibilities, I suppose there is truth in the 'big' band being dead, but not entirely. Think about some of the more heavily 'produced' or concocted (by labels) bands whose image, lyrics and style are all designed to vacuum-clean dollars, euros, pounds, or what have you from the teen and pre-teen contingent. Say what you will about the artistic and creative integrity of such bands, but you can't say they're bot 'big'.

On the other hand, there has been a lot of great music and some pretty decent recordings as facilitated at musicians' homes around the globe, and some of these recordings have caused a big noise (pun intended) for the band and thus, allowed the band to enjoy modest to great financial success.
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