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FLAC is our current best hope for the future of fidelity
Old 13th January 2010 | Show parent
  #91
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonsqueezer ➑️
there was a large scale ABX test done on pro engineers that suggests they can't
heh
do you have any links to the tests setups and results?
I know ABX testing is a no-no in most audiophile circles, as most ABX tests of silly contraptions like fancy power cords and $1k interconnects always fail to reveal any audible differences..
Old 14th January 2010 | Show parent
  #92
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
FLAC has been around for a long time & probably isn't going anywhere...

If you go over to the live music section of archive.org the vast majority of shows are FLAC. Actually, if you upload FLAC the system automatically derives the MP3 & oggs...

I recently went through the whole rigmarole of figuring this stuff out;

Internet Archive: Free Download: Swampadelica Live at Blairstown Theater on 2009-03-14

Even years ago I never bought into the iPod thing. Apple lossless is a propriety format... sort of like SDII and look at how well supported that is today! The iTunes player is clunky & terrible, as bad as winamp IMO.

If anyone is looking for a great player I'd suggest mediamonkey which plays and converts every format I've thrown at it! I found it after getting a Black Crowes download which was offered in FLAC;

MediaMonkey Β» Free Media Jukebox, Music Manager, CD Ripper & Converter

FWIW - everything I've stuffed into my non-Apple MP3 player is 320kpbs. I can totally hear a difference between 256 & 320 with material that hasn't been smashed flat in mastering.
Old 14th January 2010 | Show parent
  #93
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Lemonsqueezer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by yj777 ➑️
do you have any links to the tests setups and results?
I know ABX testing is a no-no in most audiophile circles, as most ABX tests of silly contraptions like fancy power cords and $1k interconnects always fail to reveal any audible differences..

Ethan Winner will have the info
Old 14th January 2010 | Show parent
  #94
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonsqueezer ➑️
Ethan Winner will have the info
Thanks for the info.. i still can't find the article in question, but Ethan Winer has some great articles and insight in his website!

Why We Believe

Quote:
Certainly some of these reports can be attributed to the placebo effect and expectation bias. For example, if you know that a $4 cable has been replaced with a cable costing $1,000, it's not unreasonable to expect the sound to improve with the more expensive brand. Likewise with any other expensive audio component. After all, how could a $15,000 power amplifier not sound better than one costing only $150? Yet tests have shown repeatedly that most modern gear has a frequency response that's acceptably flat (within a fraction of a dB) over the entire audible range, with noise, distortion, and all other artifacts well below the known threshold of audibility. (This excludes products based on lossy compression such as MP3 players and satellite radio receivers.)
Old 2nd March 2010 | Show parent
  #95
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
By the OP's own admission, high fidelity in audio reproductions is a niche market. From all of the replies in this post, it's apparent to me that the ones who really care about sound quality will actually do research and seek out the best formats. Why waste time trying to convince the masses, who don't care anyway?

I know audio quality is important to all of us, but remember Quincy Jones and the Auratone speaker. Why spend tons of money and time convincing someone to switch to a "better" file format when the end user will still be listening on 3/4" earbuds?

"Wow, the lossless FLAC format really helps drown out the sound of the bus!"

People with the desire will find what they want. There's not much sense in trying to create that desire in someone who doesn't have it. Spend your money on better musicians and recording equipment if you want a good sound. Vinyl is still being made, and you can create and sell WAV files at whatever sample/bit rate you want. Just be ready for the glassy stare as you try to convince the average music consumer why they have to pay more money for the same song.
Old 3rd March 2010 | Show parent
  #96
Gear Addict
 
lettenmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
in regard to music player recommendations, Foobar2000 has be just great for me. Plays anything really, plus is has an optional component that allows you to connect directly to an ASIO compatible soundcard. Built in VU meter, peak meter, spectrum analyzer, spectrogram.... that is all.
Old 3rd March 2010 | Show parent
  #97
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Will there be a day when CD's (and CD players) are obsolete ? What is the likelihood of DVD-A discs and DVD-A players replacing them ? I'd like to be able to produce an audio disc exclusively with the original .wav files, and no other formats or conversions. ----- High Quality Audio Discs -----
Old 25th May 2010
  #98
Gear Addict
 
Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Hear Hear! FLAC Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron ➑️
...

To conclude: if you're an audio engineer of artist concerned with having a way in the future to easily deliver your mixes at full resolution to the end listener then
PLEASE SUPPORT FLAC!!!

FLAC - Free Lossless Audio Codec

Best regards,
Steve Berson
GREAT JOB. I am so glad to see that someone out there actually gives a rat's a$$ about the perservation of fidelity.

Steve is right - FLAC is great and deserves a look as a 'next phase' codec, especially now that memory and such are getting progressively cheaper.

Indeed, would you rather have 20,000 songs that sound like crap, or 5,000 songs that are indistinguishable from the original recording? What is the point of listening to audio that is replete with all manner of compression artifacts? This is one of the reasons why I can't abide satellite radio (at least what I have heard), and the irony is palpable - all this technology that should be capable of completely preserving fidelity, and it's all sacrificed to squeeze more content, even if sounding like crap, so that 'more' is available rather than 'better sounding' being available.

Unfortunately, there's a whole 'iPod generation' that have been exposed to crappy headphones and thus, don't realize just how horrific heavily-compressed music sounds until they a) get decent headphones or b) get a decent set of speakers and learn that their once vaunted library sounds awful. I don't fault mp3 players at all, and as I specialize in headphone-based recordings (binaural), I know all too well how important good headphones are. Indeed, I fault those who packaged cheap and awful-sounding headphones with their mp3 players - it set a sort of paradigm that this is what mp3 player sound should be, when in fact, it was a ruse.

When will the public understand that the transducer (microphone, speaker, headphone, guitar pickup etc) has the toughest job - converting one form of enegry - faithfully - into another, and that good microphones, speakers, headphones, and other transducers cost more money because they have to be engineered for suitable frequency response as well as linearity? Translation: when will people understand that good speakers and or headphones are worth it?

I do fault many different sources / media outlets as they pretty much all promulgated the misnomer of "CD Quality" when they knew that a 160 kbps (or even lower bitrate) wasn't anything close to the actual file's sonic quality. However, little by little, symphonic organizations etc are starting to offer FLAC as an option on their downlaod sites. I think this is great - at least allow the choice and educate the consumer.

Then again, the 'average' consumer, when listening to their new slick mp3 player over $3.99 headphones (that came with the mp3 player) probably were not able to tell a difference.

Anyway, FLAC is most assuredly worth looking into. Thanks for bringing attention to it.
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #99
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AP Productions's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi, everybody!
Do anybody know how is it possible to convert 5.1 surround wav file to flac????
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #100
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sonicdefault's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan ➑️
Will there be a day when CD's (and CD players) are obsolete ? What is the likelihood of DVD-A discs and DVD-A players replacing them ? I'd like to be able to produce an audio disc exclusively with the original .wav files, and no other formats or conversions. ----- High Quality Audio Discs -----


The web article in your link appears to have been written in 2000. It's informative if only to show where we were 10 years ago.

Things are still uncertain, but there's growing thought that all disc based media is dying a slow death. However, I don't consider DVDs to be irrelevant for quite some time. It seems the Internet has truly made everyone's head spin, because there are so many unforeseen variables.

Incidentally, I have a friend who works for one of the large phone corps, and he says that things are getting ready to shift in regard to media services and phone carriers. Perhaps someone on this board could explain because I'm not exactly knowledgeable on the subject.

-SD
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #101
kjg
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AP Productions ➑️
Hi, everybody!
Do anybody know how is it possible to convert 5.1 surround wav file to flac????
I haven't tried it, but multichannel files are officially supported.
have you tried the flac front-end? you could also try from audiofile engineering's Wave Editor app; i think that can save as flac.
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #102
Gear Maniac
 
tomasrangel's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Why compression nowadays?

I was thinking about Audio/Data DVD format with 24bit 96khz wav sound.

pen drive or whatever. But 24bit 96khz sound.

I just can see compression as useful for few internet purposes.

The storage capacity of data on those USB data storage tools is much greater nowadays.

Why not?
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #103
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Teddy Ray's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs ➑️
FWIW - everything I've stuffed into my non-Apple MP3 player is 320kpbs. I can totally hear a difference between 256 & 320 with material that hasn't been smashed flat in mastering.
the new player, the hifiman , can play lossless FLAC files. (I think 24 bit too)

http://www.head-direct.com/product_detail.php?p=72

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/...art-one-of-two

Head-Direct HiFiMan HM-801 Audio Player | Wired.com Product Reviews
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #104
Gear Nut
 
AP Productions's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjg ➑️
I haven't tried it, but multichannel files are officially supported.
have you tried the flac front-end? you could also try from audiofile engineering's Wave Editor app; i think that can save as flac.
Yes, it's supported, that's why I have asked about it! And I've already converted it, Foobar2000 helped me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomasrangel ➑️
Why compression nowadays?

I was thinking about Audio/Data DVD format with 24bit 96khz wav sound.

pen drive or whatever. But 24bit 96khz sound.

I just can see compression as useful for few internet purposes.

The storage capacity of data on those USB data storage tools is much greater nowadays.

Why not?
Maybe you're right, but in my case flac is the best thing, at first, it would be Internet release, at second, it supports tags and metadata and, at third, it becoming more popular this days.
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #105
Lives for gear
 
Teddy Ray's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Samplitude can also import/export FLACs.
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #106
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Cellotron's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomasrangel ➑️
Why compression nowadays?

I was thinking about Audio/Data DVD format with 24bit 96khz wav sound.
This has been available as DVD-Audio for about 10 years already. The format has been a commercial failure though. Currently there's a number of inexpensive authoring apps that can author hybrid Audio DVD-Video and DVD-Audio that can play uncompressed stereo 24bit/96kHz PCM in any standard DVD player or DVD-ROM drive. Cirlinca offers a really nice one for PC - http://www.cirlinca.com

Quote:
I just can see compression as useful for few internet purposes.

The storage capacity of data on those USB data storage tools is much greater nowadays.

Why not?
The reason is simple: if you can have about half the download time to get the tracks you wanted - and twice the amount of tunes in the same hard drive space - while the audio quality remains the same - then why the heck wouldn't you choose FLAC over uncompressed PCM?

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #107
Deleted 37a7726
Guest
You also gain advanced metadata capabilities with FLAC, WMA Losslesss, & ALAC . Album art, other images, lyrics, production info, links, captions, ect ect. This is why I encode to WMA/FLAC over BCW/PCM
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #108
Lives for gear
 
Teddy Ray's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron ➑️
This has been available as DVD-Audio for about 10 years already. The format has been a commercial failure though. Currently there's a number of inexpensive authoring apps that can author hybrid Audio DVD-Video and DVD-Audio that can play uncompressed stereo 24bit/96kHz PCM in any standard DVD player or DVD-ROM drive. Cirlinca offers a really nice one for PC - Solo DVD-Audio authoring - Author DVD at the best audio quality
and free ones

DVD audio Tools

http://24bit.turtleside.com/DVD-Audiofile0.60.win.zip
Old 10th July 2010 | Show parent
  #109
Gear Maniac
 
tomasrangel's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron ➑️
This has been available as DVD-Audio for about 10 years already. The format has been a commercial failure though. Currently there's a number of inexpensive authoring apps that can author hybrid Audio DVD-Video and DVD-Audio that can play uncompressed stereo 24bit/96kHz PCM in any standard DVD player or DVD-ROM drive. Cirlinca offers a really nice one for PC - Solo DVD-Audio authoring - Author DVD at the best audio quality



The reason is simple: if you can have about half the download time to get the tracks you wanted - and twice the amount of tunes in the same hard drive space - while the audio quality remains the same - then why the heck wouldn't you choose FLAC over uncompressed PCM?

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Thanks for the link.
Well.. if FLAC sounds exactly as uncompressed and in 24bit 96khz.. great!
And i see now on samplitude that its possible. Cool!
Lets support it now!
Old 20th July 2010 | Show parent
  #110
Gear Addict
 
Mark A. Jay's Avatar
Cowboy Junkies Hybrid Mix in FLAC

OK, so some time ago I posted excerpts and at one point, a link to the Cowboy Junkies show that I recorded in binaural format (just the signals from my KU-100 mannequin head). Well, I decided to go back, re-EQ things a bit, and mix in some quasi-ORTF stereo that I acquired at roughly the same spot as the mannequin head; the pair used for the quasi-ORTF were AT37's.

Again, I can't call this updated version 'truly' binaural because it is a hybrid mix of that and the conventional stereo, but I like the aesthetics of this mix. Thus, I deemed this version to be "Engineered For Headphone Use" because it is mostly binaural, so headphones are the sort of 'go to' transducer for this.

You can find it here in FLAC as well as MP3 VBR and ogg (you can stream it or download it in your format of choice, though I would suggest FLAC if you can):

Cowboy Junkies Live at The Ark on 2009-10-05 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Hope you all like it...
Old 21st July 2010 | Show parent
  #111
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aleatoric's Avatar
 
Verified Member
31 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Once you go FLAC you never go back.
Old 21st July 2010 | Show parent
  #112
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I never buy mp3. I buy good music in wav format, I want to give my ears and my audience the best sonic experience. My favorite downloadstore can convert the wavs to flac from the server so yes I download flac.

If my multiplayers would have supported flac I'd never reconverted my flacs. hoping for the next gen being capable (well the dsp and so is but the firmware -.- Denon doesn't want open source and the risks bound along with it..
Old 21st July 2010 | Show parent
  #113
Lives for gear
 
Teddy Ray's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquinox ➑️
Denon doesn't want open source and the risks bound along with it..
pah! hardware players are so passe.. best player ever==

cMPΒ² = cMP + cPlay
Old 21st July 2010 | Show parent
  #114
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
thx for the software tip, other asio playback stuff doesn't seem to work well. but try telling 'hardware players are passe' to every dj in the world.
p.s. it works a bit inconvinient and doesn't look as nice as mediamonkey/jriver foobar. and it only supports 32 bit asio? wtf xD
Old 23rd July 2010 | Show parent
  #115
Gear Nut
 
leftright's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
thumbsup
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleatoric ➑️
Once you go FLAC you never go back.
Old 9th August 2010 | Show parent
  #116
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
I hate MP3s

I wish I could purchase full bandwidth music from the massive iTunes catalog. Unfortunately it's not an option; only Lossy AAC compression.

It SHOULD be an option. I am willing to pay extra for it, and I think many others feel the same. There is NO reason why we shouldn't be able to purchase for download music in the format the artist released it.

Guaranteed revenue for iTunes.

Forget about trying to convince MP3 users. Offer it as an option and let's see what happens. I have strong feeling people will slowly learn and change.

Like premium coffee and ice cream, when given the option enough people will purchase the higher quality product to justify the market.

my 2bits
Old 9th August 2010 | Show parent
  #117
Gear Guru
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquinox ➑️
but try telling 'hardware players are passe' to every dj in the world.
I see a lot of DJs with only a laptop on stage...

Alistair
Old 9th August 2010 | Show parent
  #118
Gear Addict
 
Mark A. Jay's Avatar
All change takes time, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ofsaints ➑️
I wish I could purchase full bandwidth music from the massive iTunes catalog. Unfortunately it's not an option; only Lossy AAC compression.

It SHOULD be an option. I am willing to pay extra for it, and I think many others feel the same. There is NO reason why we shouldn't be able to purchase for download music in the format the artist released it.

Guaranteed revenue for iTunes.

Forget about trying to convince MP3 users. Offer it as an option and let's see what happens. I have strong feeling people will slowly learn and change.

Like premium coffee and ice cream, when given the option enough people will purchase the higher quality product to justify the market.

my 2bits
There are places (websites) that specifically call attention to customers about their download options, and FLAC is gaining in popularity every day (here's one example I found at random: PACO029: Margaret Harshaw sings Wagner ).

See, my gripe with iTunes (and those outfits like them) is that they sold millions of consumers a bill of goods (i.e. "CD-quality" downloads that are 15% the size of the original file) rather than being up-front and saying "We offer various formats, some of which will be smaller (with lower fidelity), but others preserve the full-fidelity of the original recording - click here to review your choices".

Oddly (or perhaps sadly) enough, most people are so technically challenged that the very idea that 'version B' of a file is only 15% the size of 'version A' (the original) never prompts them to wonder how that can be...as in 'if this file is so much smaller than the original...how can it contain the same information". I truly believe that iTunes et al played (or preyed) on this ignorance in the interest of commerce.

I think I may have metioned this in another post, but I can't tell you how many times I have read 'newbie' posts in audio forums by people who have amassed huge libraries of heavily-compressed mp3's and then, when they buyt some 'real' audio gear, including good speakers and or headphones ask questions such as:

"Is there something wrong with my pre-amp / receiver? I compared my mp3's to the CD and they sound awful. Can anyone help?"

Questions such as those are followed by an explanation of lossy versus the parent files, which are then often followed by the original poster chiming in and saying something like "wow...had I known the fidelity was that inferior I would not have downloaded those tunes - I feel like I was hoodwinked".

Indeed, Apple et al fully knew that they were selling something that was 'less than', but they also realized that to amortize the cost of their bandwidth, smaller (and thus heavily compressed) files meant more revenue...and there you have it. After all, from a business model perspective, if you can sell 10 mp3 downloads in the same bandwidth that you can sell two lossless FLAC files, what would you do? If you care about music and craft, then you do the latter, but if you care only about profits at any cost, and are a conduit for 'product' then you opt for the former.

Again, I not being derisive per se...I just wish that the various download sites had been up-front and said "this is what you can have / what it will cost, and why" rather than raising an entire generation on music that sounds like straight-up a##.

That's just my $0.02
Old 11th August 2010 | Show parent
  #119
Gear Addict
 
Mark A. Jay's Avatar
FLAC (Roots Music / Joni Mitchell Tribute) Post

I (originally) posted this in the "What's Your Favorite Binaural Recording?" thread, but I thought I should reference it here as it involves FLAC as well:

https://gearspace.com/board/remote-p...ml#post5673795

Again...there are some things I would have done differently (isn't it always the case?), but I think it's a pretty 'authentic' representation of the experience. Hope you like it.
πŸ“ Reply

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