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Oversampling Benefits When Hard Clipping?
Old 1 week ago
  #31
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E Artsy Moods's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Guys, correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought that this is because just before sampling stage (and thus straight Hard clipping) the analog stage right before is specifically built to add a very nice kind of soft clipping by high quality circuitry designed by those electronic wizards at Lavry, Dangerous Music, etc etc...

That's what you're talking about or did I miss something??
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
Gregg Hermetech's Avatar
 
Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar ➡️
Sorry, now I get what you say. From the technical side you are right. The most basic form of clipping is just to hard clip a plug in.


In other words. In a good ad converter the analog stage just in front of the sampling does not show distortions even when the digital output already is at 0 dBFS.

For mastering you can also use another basic form of clipping (ok, not the most basic form of):
If your mastering chain is set ip with analog equipment then it might be better to use a high quality ad converter for clipping already at this stage. This often results in a more useful clipping behaviour then just move the gain up in a DAW/plug in
I know what clipping the converter is. I've had Crookwood conversion for over a decade, but in my own listening tests always preferred the "no sound" of digital clipping. I also like to keep a "clean" analogue capture for archiving/future-proofing purposes, and once you clip a converter it can't be undone.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #33
Gear Maniac
 
Gregg Hermetech's Avatar
 
Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by E Artsy Moods ➡️
Guys, correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought that this is because just before sampling stage (and thus straight Hard clipping) the analog stage right before is specifically built to add a very nice kind of soft clipping by high quality circuitry designed by those electronic wizards at Lavry, Dangerous Music, etc etc...

That's what you're talking about or did I miss something??
No, I think converters designed for adding their own "sound" came about after people started abusing them for clipping.

I never want clipping to be audible in any way, I am only interested in it for "free gain". Happy for people to abuse clipping as part of the sound in production, but for me audible clipping generally sounds really, really bad in mastering, and is an affront to good sound quality. Hence I am only ever using clipping if I can't hear it. That may just be me though.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #34
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Adebar's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Hermetech ➡️
I also like to keep a "clean" analogue capture for archiving/future-proofing purposes, and once you clip a converter it can't be undone.
Yes, I have the same approach. So I would never clip a converter for tracking.

At mastering with analog loop it can be an option. Of course Clipping cannot be undone. But in case you the clipping was unpleasant because the signal was to hot you can just repeat the loop with lower levels.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #35
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Adebar's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Hermetech ➡️
I never want clipping to be audible in any way, I am only interested in it for "free gain". Happy for people to abuse clipping as part of the sound in production, but for me audible clipping generally sounds really, really bad in mastering, and is an affront to good sound quality. Hence I am only ever using clipping if I can't hear it. That may just be me though.
I agree.
Old 1 week ago
  #36
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E Artsy Moods's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Guys, I agree with the "free gain" (or maybe we could say free headroom?) part.

And I also agree that with the pratice of hard clipping becoming more popular, converters designers worked on how to make this practice sound better.

And I honestly thought the exact same as you and still use hard clipping with Standard Clip on my masters since 6 years or so when I learned about this loudness technic. But that's not enough to achieve real loud & clean master.

Now what I'm saying is that converter's designers understood that loudness was the goal and how peoples misused there machines, and they also understood that there's another way to ad loudness feeling, giving more consistence to sound by adding a soft clipping (straight or parallel) circuit part right before the sampling part. Hence a part of the price of those mastering converter in conjunction with other things the cost of a quality clock to avoid jitter and having LR perfectly matched etc etc (but that something else).

Anyway, many peoples buy hardware piece of gears for their non linearities when they are pushed in the "sweet spot" which is the level where the machine is pushed beyond is capacity to stay linear, and entre the end of there headroom progressively and begin soft clipping.

And that's desirable BUT, not enough clean when not intended from the start in a mastering context.

That's where mastering gear specifically tailored to add controlled, kinda cleaner, maybe even (don't kill me lol) Hifi and musical harmonics via soft clipping becomes way better than approximative soft clipping mixing gear (from phase to level etc etc everything needs to be matched or go in a MS matrix to avoid those problems).

This kind of harmonic content makes the sound fuller and and excited in more "Hifi" way (I know I should not use this word again but anyway, can't find another one... hum aaa yes "Euphonic" ) , so that's a finer kind of treatment way more transparent and subtle than an amp sim or decapitator .

The other way is to simulate this by onboard DSP digital saturations like in HEDD or Lavry Gold, or great plugins with great oversampling this time, cause aliasing is a factor this time (not in those beautiful machine but plugins etc ).

So for example I really like the analog circuit in the Dangerous Convert AD+, it adds exactly this kind of little loudness push and the harmonics content it adds is what I like, and that's a subjective taste thing.

Now thanks to Acustica audio and many other brands like Ploytec Aroma, Kelvin, etc, I can also ad controlled soft clipping in a software form combined with hard clipping in Standard Clip and reach (in conjunction with other technics) a crazy loudness while staying kinda clean, adding more of an "euphonic" subtle harmonic content than straight grainy guitare amp saturation (which also work for loudness, but is too much used as a shortcut by untrained producers who can't reach their loudness goal without ruining it).

So what I said is ok you use hard clipping absolutely I love this too, but don't throw away soft clipping made by high quality oversampling plugins cause they'll help you achieve more beautiful subtle (and not crunchy) loudness feelings.

If you know sorry, but also some young guys may read and may learn a thing
Old 1 week ago
  #37
Gear Maniac
 
Gregg Hermetech's Avatar
 
Verified Member
It's off topic (maybe start your own?), but for me, a converter would be the absolute last place I'd look for "colour", clipped or not.
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