Quantcast
In my email this morning - another on line mastering site - Page 2 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
In my email this morning - another on line mastering site
Old 1 week ago
  #31
Tokyo Dawn Labs
 
FabienTDR's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 5 years
It's a different audience.

500 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute worldwide (according to Tubefilter, 2019). Today it likely doubled.

Unserviced, these are massive opportunity costs. Not anti-cannibalism.

Until a few years ago, these demands simply couldn't be serviced. It is not about pieces of art. It's about servicing a banal commodity, throw away youtube nonsense, beginners making music demos, police enhancing their audio recordings , podcasters running their shows, niche youtubers, enhancing a family marriage video, whatever. Quick and dirty, but sufficiently adequate for the context/audience.

Music artists of course won't find much appreciation in outsourcing the most fun aspects.

Last edited by FabienTDR; 4 days ago at 07:08 PM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #32
Gear Addict
 
audiogeek1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
When I first found out about this I was a little bit bothered by it. Being an owner of Plug In Alliance plugs. But after a few minutes I realized that this was not going to change much for me. I might lose a few of the real beginner type musicians that come through my door from time to time. But that is only a few people a year around these parts.

From a business perspective I was also a bit bothered by it. Way back in 1997 I became the head mastering engineer at a place called Super Digital in Portland Oregon. When I first started there I was also a gear pimp. (We were a pro audio dealer). I asked the owner why he did not have a recording studio and only a Mastering Studio, Pro Audio Shop, and Duplication. He said he did not want to compete with his clients. Most of his clients were either local studios or musicians. We were one of 3 mastering houses locally. So the logic made sense. Long story short is that Dirk is competing with some of his customers. For me it is really apples vs oranges. But still some competing none the less. It does not make me like the plugins I own any less. I will still use them. But it does make you think twice when looking for the next plugin addition.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #33
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiogeek1 ➡️
Long story short is that Dirk is competing with some of his customers. For me it is really apples vs oranges. But still some competing none the less. It does not make me like the plugins I own any less. I will still use them. But it does make you think twice when looking for the next plugin addition.
The point I was trying to make is that, realistically, we're looking at 1-2 more generations of mastering engineers, and possibly even mix engineers, before AI technology will reach a level of undeniable superiority for most of the work.

So I expect an increasing number of plugin developers etc to start banking on the future paradigm, risking the "think twice" of some current customers for what appears to be a much larger gold mine. Immediately, there's the mass volume work that already exists, and in the near distant future, I believe it'll expand to the majority of everything. I know this isn't what people want to hear but I do believe its the reality that some are starting to prepare for.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #34
Gear Nut
 
Justin Perkins's Avatar
 
Verified Member
Yes. As I've said many times before, I'm not worried about this or similar services directly "stealing" any real business from me. In fact, I just received an email from somebody who "mastered their album with LANDR" but the CD place is requesting a DDP and he doesn't know what that is. So, in a sense...it's bringing in business for me.

For probably a little more money total, he could have had the album fully mastered by a human and all the formats he needs to release it digitally and physically instead of feeling lost.

Turns out there is more to mastering than running the songs through a website. The best part is that the files were 24-bit but the audio was only 16-bit when checked with WaveLab's bit-depth meter. I'm not sure if that is LANDR's doing or if he took the files from LANDR, did more stuff to them and unknowingly saved the files as 24-bit since the metadata in the file said was created by Logic Pro X. I can't imagine the crazy stuff people are doing to their files without knowing it. Respect The Data as Bob Katz once said.

Kind of my entire point is that the bus processing is just part of the job, but services like Dirk's are giving people the impression they're getting the full mastering treatment and then they find out the hard way that's not the case. Automated websites only do the big obvious stuff and ignore the details that require human intuition, experience, skill, etc.

Somebody sent me this message and it really sums up Dirk's poor rollout and response to all this, including blocking on Facebook anybody that tries to point it out:
Attached Thumbnails
In my email this morning - another on line mastering site-img_2693.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #35
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
You get what you pay for…

29 cent ramen noodles ~vs~ filet mignon

both are food, but…

i have no idea who dirk is

Best, JT
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Verified Member
🎧 10 years
I wonder if these companies factor in these posts in their marketing budget? free SEO!

Don't compare hedge trimmers to a gardener and the problem goes away instantly
Old 1 week ago
  #37
Tokyo Dawn Labs
 
FabienTDR's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 5 years
McDonalds is probably the best long term advertisement for haute cuisine. Thanks to fast food, most people are easily impressed by honest artisanal cooking, how well things can be baked, cooked and presented, how subtle and exciting well made food can taste. Fast food is likely the best reminder to visit a good restaurant once in a while. Every extreme needs a counter-weight. Maybe these auto services turn into a serious benefit for truly dedicated and talented audio engineers, by visibly enhancing the contrasts among services.

Fast food is also a great way to get ppl start to think about going out in the first place, a low barrier restaurant for beginners, almost a funnel leading to more advanced offers, no?

I personally think a debate about how to get individual ME's to service this special low barrier audience would be far more fruitful than trying to downplay its scale, future and relevance with sarcasm. Honestly, ask yourself: How would you service a family video audio restoration request? Or a stock market youtuber asking for audio enhancement of his daily uploads? Would you reject it? Would you respond to such $30 requests at all? Could you really service time critical jobs, e.g. what the mentioned youtuber needs?

@ Justin Perkins : I'm not trying to justify shady advertising. I think every service can and should be offered in full honesty.

Last edited by FabienTDR; 1 week ago at 06:32 PM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Trakworx's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR ➡️
McDonalds is probably the best long term advertisement for haute cuisine. Thanks to fast food, most people are easily impressed by honest artisanal cooking, how well things can be baked, cooked and presented, how subtle and exciting well made food can taste. Fast food is likely the best reminder to visit a good restaurant once in a while. Every extreme needs a counter-weight. Maybe these auto services turn into a serious benefit for truly dedicated and talented audio engineers, by visibly enhancing the contrasts among services.

Fast food is also a great way to get ppl start to think about going out in the first place, a low barrier restaurant for beginners, almost a funnel leading to more advanced offers, no?

I personally think a debate about how to get individual ME's to service this special low barrier audience would be far more fruitful than trying to downplay its scale, future and relevance with sarcasm. Honestly, ask yourself: How would you service a family video audio restoration request? Or a stock market youtuber asking for audio enhancement of his daily uploads? Would you reject it? Would you respond to such $30 requests at all? Could you really service time critical jobs, e.g. what the mentioned youtuber needs?

@ Justin Perkins : I'm not trying to justify shady advertising. I think every service can and should be offered in full honesty.
Well said.

And still I think this particular service has earned some sarcasm.
Old 1 week ago
  #39
Lives for gear
 
scraggs's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
If I could fasten my workflow though. Like a seatbelt! That'd really be something.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #40
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
Verified Member
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I still think "website mastering" or "AI mastering" or "remote mastering" gives the mastering profession a bad name. Potential clients already don't understand what mastering is all about and a lot of them think that mastering is all about making things LOUD.

People are people and if they think they can get a "full mastering experience" by spending next to nothing they will do it.

A good friend has an acquaintance who works for a major background music studio in California and they are now sending all their mastering to a AI online service. They are not the first and will not be the last.

We keep saying it "doesn't matter" but it does and the more places that do AI mastering the more people will use them. Sure the BIG NAMES will probably continue to use the top level mastering houses but a lot more potential clients will opt for the "cheap and dirty mastering places" to save a few bucks. It is the mid level mastering places that will feel the pinch with a fall off of clients willing to pay for their services.



FWIW
Old 6 days ago
  #41
Lives for gear
 
Progger's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 10 years
One last thing that I find confounding about this entire thing. Not AI mastering in general, but specifically regarding PA.

PA's client base is, as we've mentioned, made of audio engineers, producers, musicians, and folks who combine those disciplines. Presumably, every PA customer knows a bit about mixing, and has bought some plugins to help with that.

With just the most wee bit of self-directed education and practice, anyone who can mix at all can use stock DAW plugins to do a similar "mastering" job to an AI service with, in all likelihood, better results. Sure, you won't have the perfectly-tuned room, state-of-the-art monitoring, and experienced ears of a real mastering engineer... but the AI service won't either. Branching out from DAW-native compressors and limiters, Brainworx Masterdesk makes the process even easier and honestly sounds pretty damn good. PA is selling reasons not to bother with their AI service, and has been for years.

I'm by no means a mastering engineer – I'm not an engineer at all, really, I'm a composer and musician – but if I need a quick-and-dirty pseudo-mastering job for a project that doesn't have the budget for me to send it to a real pro with a real room, you'd better believe I'm gonna do it myself.

I'm sure that you're right, Thomas, in that the pros being hurt by this will be mid-tier up-and-comers trying to make a name for themselves, and that's a shame. But moreover, I find it likely that Plugin Alliance's toe-dip into this world will sputter out. I wish that company no harm and I enjoy so many of their products, but I won't be shocked if this venture doesn't work for them.
Old 6 days ago
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Trakworx's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
PA is profiting off both sides of that. Selling plugins to those who want to do it themselves while also selling AI mastering to those who don't. I think their real problem lies in being more expensive than the other AI services.

At this point there are a lot of AI services out there - a fairly saturated market, all competing with each other over the bottom of the barrel. If it were a threat to mid level MEs then we should be suffering the effects by now, but we're still doing fine. I've yet to hear of a single one of my clients switching to AI. Background music companies and the like are smart to save their money by using AI, as no one pays any attention to their music anyway, but how many of us make their living mastering background music? Honestly, I never thought that stuff got properly mastered in the first place.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #43
Gear Nut
 
Justin Perkins's Avatar
 
Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Progger ➡️
I'm by no means a mastering engineer – I'm not an engineer at all, really, I'm a composer and musician – but if I need a quick-and-dirty pseudo-mastering job for a project that doesn't have the budget for me to send it to a real pro with a real room, you'd better believe I'm gonna do it myself.
That's really the best use case for services like this and I see no problem with it...if they'd call it "stereo bus processing" rather than mastering.

While more experienced engineers/musicians may understand what they're getting with these services (the McDonald's drive-thru), calling it mastering (and aggressively marketing it as mastering) is misleading less informed users that they are getting the full "mastering process" of their project when they are really not. They're getting one element of the mastering process...the stereo bus processing.

That's my main beef with it. It's misleading and deceitful to those who don't know any better...all so Dirk can buy more race cars and speed boats and be more of a bad-ass on social media.

Or, maybe he honestly doesn’t know what the mastering process entails.
Old 6 days ago
  #44
Lives for gear
 
Surbitone's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
After the busiest year I’ve ever had, with at least a handful of clients having had distinctly average automated mastering jobs, come my way... I’m not too worried atm.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #45
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
Verified Member
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surbitone ➡️
After the busiest year I’ve ever had, with at least a handful of clients having had distinctly average automated mastering jobs, come my way... I’m not too worried atm.
That is GREAT...congratulations. Not all of us are "suffering" the same fate. <GRIN>

Worst year for mastering in the past five. Luckily our transfer and restoration work has increased substantially.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #46
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
Verified Member
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
PA is profiting off both sides of that. Selling plugins to those who want to do it themselves while also selling AI mastering to those who don't. I think their real problem lies in being more expensive than the other AI services.

At this point there are a lot of AI services out there - a fairly saturated market, all competing with each other over the bottom of the barrel. If it were a threat to mid level MEs then we should be suffering the effects by now, but we're still doing fine. I've yet to hear of a single one of my clients switching to AI. Background music companies and the like are smart to save their money by using AI, as no one pays any attention to their music anyway, but how many of us make their living mastering background music? Honestly, I never thought that stuff got properly mastered in the first place.
I have lost a few clients recently who are getting their stuff "mastered" by AI on line. If it works for them...
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #47
Lives for gear
 
Surbitone's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➡️
That is GREAT...congratulations. Not all of us are "suffering" the same fate. <GRIN>

Worst year for mastering in the past five. Luckily our transfer and restoration work has increased substantially.
Genuinely sorry to hear that. Do you think it’s specifically being caused by automated mastering, or some other combination of factors? Pleased the transfers and restorations are picking up for you, though.
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #48
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
Verified Member
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surbitone ➡️
Genuinely sorry to hear that. Do you think it’s specifically being caused by automated mastering, or some other combination of factors? Pleased the transfers and restorations are picking up for you, though.
Well I am really not sure. AI mastering may be some of it, DIY mastering certainly is a factor, my location in the middle of a soy bean field in Northern Ohio probably doesn't help. Also there are soooooooooooooo many people and places offering mastering that people have problems deciding which person to go to. And then they decide after a confusing search to DIY their mastering themselves.

A couple of my long term clients are not doing anywhere near the amount of recordings they were doing 5 to 10 years ago when they put out a new album every 9 months. Now it is more like 2.5 years. One of my clients used to make a lot of money off CD and T shirt sales. Now he doesn't. I think the loss of the CD as a media choice has had a major impact on my clientele. I do very little complete CD masterings anymore most is a single item going up on the WWW.

Not sure how others are reacting but to do a whole album was a sizeable amount of $$$ but to do one song is about 1/6th of what a whole album cost which means I would have to do 6 masterings of a single song to equal what one album mastering brought in. (which of course means working with 6 different artists). My hat is off to people who can continue to function in this marketplace.

I love what I do but fiscally it is not a viable career choice and I would not recommend that any young person think about doing mastering as a full time job. Some of my 45 + interns over the past 26 years have thought about doing this but all of them soon decided that a full time job with benefits was more in their future and mastering is something they do at night or on weekends more for fun than to make money.

Too bad, when I got into mastering in 1995 it was a growing opportunity but no more. The field is way too crowded and there is very little money in doing something that I love.

FWIW
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #49
Lives for gear
 
Surbitone's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I would totally recommend a backup plan for anyone looking to get into this industry. It’s a bumpy ride.

I trained as a software engineer alongside mastering, which has come in very handy, especially given the current contract market in the technology sector.

If mastering goes arse over tit, which I really, really hope it doesn’t, having something that can pay a solid day rate, cover a mortgage, kids etc, is a great security blanket to have. Always good to have options. You never know what life will throw at you.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #50
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surbitone ➡️
I would totally recommend a backup plan for anyone looking to get into this industry. It’s a bumpy ride.

I trained as a software engineer alongside mastering, which has come in very handy, especially given the current contract market in the technology sector.

If mastering goes arse over tit, which I really, really hope it doesn’t, having something that can pay a solid day rate, cover a mortgage, kids etc, is a great security blanket to have. Always good to have options. You never know what life will throw at you.
I don’t see Mastering by a Human Being going away at all. Producers, Engineers, Artists, Labels will always want quality custom mastering by talented experienced MEs.
The AI “mastering” is mainly a cheapo bottom feeder thing, with a few exceptions.

Still good to have a backup plan, like the cartoon below, although I never needed one, could always go back to playing guitar gigs!

Best, JT
Attached Thumbnails
In my email this morning - another on line mastering site-155ed2c1-9e08-435e-be94-1fa9e92cce59.jpeg  
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
Yeah its definitely McDonalds vs five star restaurants.
Personally, even before the AI thing, I've been surprised by the explosion of more-or-less McDonalds or maybe Boston Market class mastering home-studios.

Looking at all of this realistically, how much sense has it ever made for a client to spend as much or more on mastering then on promoting their songs?

And how much sense does it make for a home-studio ME to rely on that?

Of course some 'home-studios' are actual commercial/pro-class buildout and that's not what I mean, just more so in the space of minimally treated living/bed-rooms, that have probably never even been sweep-measured and adjusted and don't even come close to meeting the standards of something like EBU 3276.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #52
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
Verified Member
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
Personally, even before the AI thing, I've been surprised by the explosion of more-or-less McDonalds or maybe Boston Market class mastering home-studios.

Looking at all of this realistically, how much sense has it ever made for a client to spend as much or more on mastering then on promoting their songs?

And how much sense does it make for a home-studio ME to rely on that?

Of course some 'home-studios' are actual commercial/pro-class buildout and that's not what I mean, just more so in the space of minimally treated living/bed-rooms, that have probably never even been sweep-measured and adjusted and don't even come close to meeting the standards of something like EBU 3276.
I sometimes get "but this is in your home so it must be cheaper" from certain clients. My "in home mastering studio" is custom built, separate from my home and was designed by Don Mitchell of DSM and Associates in Brunswick, OH. (Don has since passed away about three years ago) and I have a lot of money and time invested in it. The whole reason it is in my home and not "uptown" is that rents in my town are astronomical. It would cost me about $1800 to $2000 a month to have my studio uptown and it is just not worth it.

People are doing "mastering" in their bedrooms with their dirty underwear for "acoustics" and are, in some cases, charging more an hour than I charge. So be it. The bottom line is the results and if you are comfortable with sending your carefully crafted masterpiece to someone who is in their bedroom or basement with an untreated acoustical space. Then fine.

FWIW
Old 4 days ago
  #53
Lives for gear
 
teebaum's Avatar
 
Verified Member
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
on "mastering pros" (facebook) someone gave 3 masters to compare, even against an ozone-preset and a dirty-rough-master itb this service failed so mercilessly that it did not get a single vote in the poll.

but for me it is clear that i will never again throw money down the throat of the plugin alliance - which is not tragic, the plugins are rarely top notch.

all in all, however, i am glad about such services - they show the customers how much our work is really worth - and i don't have to have the customers who don't appreciate that.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #54
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➡️
I sometimes get "but this is in your home so it must be cheaper" from certain clients. My "in home mastering studio" is custom built, separate from my home and was designed by Don Mitchell of DSM and Associates in Brunswick, OH. (Don has since passed away about three years ago) and I have a lot of money and time invested in it. The whole reason it is in my home and not "uptown" is that rents in my town are astronomical. It would cost me about $1800 to $2000 a month to have my studio uptown and it is just not worth it.

People are doing "mastering" in their bedrooms with their dirty underwear for "acoustics" and are, in some cases, charging more an hour than I charge. So be it. The bottom line is the results and if you are comfortable with sending your carefully crafted masterpiece to someone who is in their bedroom or basement with an untreated acoustical space. Then fine.

FWIW
For sure man, that isn't intended to be aimed at anyone specifically in this thread. It's not the 'home' part that is problematic, some people have Northward rooms in their house. And some of those people also don't know how to use them, and some do.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #55
Lives for gear
 
Trakworx's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
Looking at all of this realistically, how much sense has it ever made for a client to spend as much or more on mastering then on promoting their songs?
Mastering (and every other step in music production) is not related to commercial success for most clients. It's about making their songs sound as good as possible to them.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #56
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
Mastering (and every other step in music production) is not related to commercial success for most clients. It's about making their songs sound as good as possible to them.
Hmm-

True to a point, but if we are honest, a lot of the way we all determine quality of work is via quality of experience and the way that others value the same service. The french laundry wouldn't have the reputation that it does if they just dished out the same food in styrofoam containers from a run-down drive through.

In all levels of the music industry, if you have had success with other clients, that provides validation that many people are looking for. Then if they can have an positive experience where it feels like you understand them, but also guide them based on your 'proven' experience, they will be much more likely to be pleased with the result.

I have multiple engineers/producers working out of my space, and I can say without hesitation that simply producing better work doesn't necessarily translate to more work. Clients value their experience, and clients frankly have a hard time determining objective quality of work in music...


That's really my point here more than just acoustics etc. McD's and Chipotle are both 'service-as-goods'. Few people care if it's a digital kiosk, or robot burger flipper. The same is true with the end of the ME segment where you just upload a wav, get a mastered wav back, and no real constructive criticism, creative interaction or overall humanistic experience around that...
Old 4 days ago
  #57
Lives for gear
 
Trakworx's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
None of that conflicts with what I said. I'd file it under "also". After the experience is over, they're left with just the results for the rest of their lives. I think that's what's most important to them in the end. The experience is part of how we reach the result.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
SmoothTone's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
After the experience is over, they're left with just the results for the rest of their lives. I think that's what's most important to them in the end. The experience is part of how we reach the result.
I don't know Justin, people remember the experience too and it can have a large bearing on whether they come back, send more people your way or choose to move on. Especially when comparing good quality work to good quality work, it's the experience that often makes the difference.

To link this back to the topic, if MEs are competing for clients who want a cheap, fast food service, then their work will be threatened by automated mastering. The segment of the market that wants good quality work and good service and is willing to pay for it is under no threat from automated services. The only challenge for MEs doing good work is reaching those clients.
Old 4 days ago
  #59
Lives for gear
 
Trakworx's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
That's all fine. Really the point I started out trying to make is that commercial success re promoting budgets has little bearing on why most clients want quality mastering. They would want it even if the music was just for friends and family.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #60
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
Mastering (and every other step in music production) is not related to commercial success for most clients. It's about making their songs sound as good as possible to them.
Agreed, it’s about helping artists realize their dreams!

one of them posted his royalty statement recently on social media,

the amount… 28 cents, i said “you’re buying lunch!”

Cheers, JT
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 1967 views: 189053
Avatar for Inge
Inge 31 minutes ago
replies: 59 views: 6430
Avatar for kirito
kirito 4th August 2021
replies: 3306 views: 61482
Avatar for Synth Guru
Synth Guru 4 weeks ago
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump