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Stereo width smaller with outboard
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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Stereo width smaller with outboard

I have this strange problem, that the stereo width of a track gets smaller, when I use outboard equipment. I really tried everything:

RME Fireface 802 outs into converter (Lavry Gold AD122-96 MX

Fireface adat out into RME M16 (DA Converter)
Into Maxx BCL and back into Fireface (AES)

I also tried every combination with different outboard equipment like SSL XLogic G Series comoressor, Millennia NSEQ-2, Dangerous 2 Bus.

In every situation the pure ITB mix is wider than the mix with outboard. Does someone knows why? Or is it me doing something wrong?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 
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5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Double check all of the cables. Look for a lifted or shorted leg.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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Labs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDoorRecords ➑️
I have this strange problem, that the stereo width of a track gets smaller, when I use outboard equipment. I really tried everything:

RME Fireface 802 outs into converter (Lavry Gold AD122-96 MX

Fireface adat out into RME M16 (DA Converter)
Into Maxx BCL and back into Fireface (AES)

I also tried every combination with different outboard equipment like SSL XLogic G Series comoressor, Millennia NSEQ-2, Dangerous 2 Bus.

In every situation the pure ITB mix is wider than the mix with outboard. Does someone knows why? Or is it me doing something wrong?
Did you try just a cable loop (out, in). That will elimiate variables other than converters and routing.

Can you pick the difference in an A/B blind test, and consistently?

If you are able to do so with just a transfer loop, try posting the A/B files here.

Gustav
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
I experienced this too. Pretty much collapsed the mix. What I think happened was is since i didnt use dual mono channels, a left and a right and instead used a single stereo channel, both L and R on one fader. So i think some kind of internal phase shifting happened. Smallifying the mix.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
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Ok, thank you! I'll try this. πŸ‘
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6
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Hippocratic Mastering's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coreyspencer ➑️
I experienced this too. Pretty much collapsed the mix. What I think happened was is since i didnt use dual mono channels, a left and a right and instead used a single stereo channel, both L and R on one fader. So i think some kind of internal phase shifting happened. Smallifying the mix.
This would not be an issue on any properly set up DAW. A stereo channel and separate L/R should be identical.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
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FabienTDR's Avatar
 
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🎧 5 years
From a purely theoretical perspective, this is only possible due to excessive crossfeed effects, somewhere in the chain (left mixed a bit into right, right mixed a bit into left = less stereo overall).
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coreyspencer ➑️
I experienced this too. Pretty much collapsed the mix. What I think happened was is since i didnt use dual mono channels, a left and a right and instead used a single stereo channel, both L and R on one fader. So i think some kind of internal phase shifting happened. Smallifying the mix.
Do you mean the use of the channels in a DAW or in the internal mixer of the interface?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
I'm talking about the use of outboard (analog), specifically, the use of a mixing console. I believe the stereo image/width would have been preserved if I used dual mono instead of a single stereo channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocratic Mastering ➑️
This would not be an issue on any properly set up DAW. A stereo channel and separate L/R should be identical.
True statement: There are no issues if there are no problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR ➑️
From a purely theoretical perspective, this is only possible due to excessive crossfeed effects, somewhere in the chain (left mixed a bit into right, right mixed a bit into left = less stereo overall).
this is more like it. Pretty much exactly what I think is goin on. The left and the right are literally combined onto one fader. Ultimately ending up with left mixed into the right and vice versa.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #10
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Hippocratic Mastering's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coreyspencer ➑️
I'm talking about the use of outboard (analog), specifically, the use of a mixing console. I believe the stereo image/width would have been preserved if I used dual mono instead of a single stereo channel.



True statement: There are no issues if there are no problems.



this is more like it. Pretty much exactly what I think is goin on. The left and the right are literally combined onto one fader. Ultimately ending up with left mixed into the right and vice versa.
Apologies, I thought you were referring to DAW channels.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #11
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by coreyspencer ➑️
What I think happened was is since i didnt use dual mono channels, a left and a right and instead used a single stereo channel, both L and R on one fader. So i think some kind of internal phase shifting happened. Smallifying the mix.
If you were using dual mono channels {unlinked} instead of a stereo compressor then that's precisely what could reduce stereo image...
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea ➑️
If you were using dual mono channels {unlinked} instead of a stereo compressor then that's precisely what could reduce stereo image...
Ok, that's interesting. I only know the effect of unlinking channels with a compressor or limiter. Some have the option to dial in the independance from 0 - 100 %. But here the stereo width gets bigger the more you reach complete independance (and your bass begins to sound weak :-)) Do you think its a similar effect with stereo and dual mono channels?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #13
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDoorRecords ➑️
Ok, that's interesting. I only know the effect of unlinking channels with a compressor or limiter. Some have the option to dial in the independance from 0 - 100 %. But here the stereo width gets bigger the more you reach complete independance (and your bass begins to sound weak :-)) Do you think its a similar effect with stereo and dual mono channels?
I was referring to a compressor with un-linked channels.

If you don't hear image narrowing/widening/bass weakening effect, etc in bypass mode, then there is your culprit.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
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thermos's Avatar
 
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea ➑️
If you were using dual mono channels {unlinked} instead of a stereo compressor then that's precisely what could reduce stereo image...

I was going to say the opposite. Unlink any compression/limiting and your image will be wider.

As far as what Corey is talking about, stereo recording track vs 2 mono ones makes 0 difference. Just do a null test with that one.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos ➑️
I was going to say the opposite. Unlink any compression/limiting and your image will be wider.
Both modes can have an adverse effect on the stereo image, being un-linked dual mono channel compression the worst due to the stereo image will wander about in an un-linked compressor.
πŸ“ Reply

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