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Did Loudness KILL a sense of Space???
Old 2 weeks ago
  #31
Personally I’d suggest the ambience and natural acoustics have been mangled by codecs . Low bit files and Lossy sample rate conversions/dithering more than anything

Andrew
Schepps gave a brilliant lecture on the importance and relevance of this problem to not just our perception of music productions but also our mental health and listening fatigue at a societal level

https://youtu.be/HVCdrYbUVW8

Good luck with the paper
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #32
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostman ➡️
Personally I’d suggest the ambience and natural acoustics have been mangled by codecs . Low bit files and Lossy sample rate conversions/dithering more than anything

Andrew
Schepps gave a brilliant lecture on the importance and relevance of this problem to not just our perception of music productions but also our mental health and listening fatigue at a societal level

https://youtu.be/HVCdrYbUVW8

Good luck with the paper
What does dithering has in common with lossy codecs?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahler007 ➡️
Assuming the arrangement allows for it, there are three ways to get "space" in my way of thinking:

1) "height" - i.e. frequency domain, the low C of the double bass to the high C of the piccolo (figuratively speaking)

2) L-R stereo spread (the easiest)

3) front to back depth (the most difficult)

These three dimensions all interact with one another to a significant degree. Dynamics contribute greatly to no. 3 — the subtle movement of instruments in the arrangement between background, foreground, and middle ground, and how noticeable those layers are in the mix, are what contribute to a sense of spaciousness.

IME, when you squash the dynamics of the tune with heavy compression and limiting, you essentially restrict that movement between those various layers. This leads to the "flat, 2-d" effect.

Similarly, distortion artifacts from heavy processing can have a profound effect on no. 1 above, causing the top end to become congested and over-saturated. This can also lead to a loss of a sense of space. Those mid and high frequencies are where our ears get our spatial cues from. If those frequencies cannot breathe, spaciousness suffers.

My $.02, as someone who thinks about this issue a lot...
Well said. As you imply, both the loss of transient material, from compression/clipping and the increase in upper overtone density from heavy saturation can lessen the "negative space" in the frequency-time domain of a mix. Bob Dylan has commented on the loss of "space" in the race for loudness, "You listen to these modern records, they're atrocious, they have sound all over them."
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stilnox ➡️

Apologies, I shouldn't have introduced the post-humanism topic here - my main goal here is collecting evidence that loudness killed natural space.
You're not collecting evidence here. You're collecting random thoughts of random people on the internet.

If this is for a MA paper, you have to come up with a falsifiable hypothesis, put forward and document a method of conducting experiments that can be replicated to either prove or disprove your hypothesis, and then conduct these experiments in a controlled setting.
After that, analyze the data without the goal of proving your hypothesis, or you'll be in danger of p-hacking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_dredging)

Last edited by kosmokrator; 2 weeks ago at 12:55 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #35
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anyone who's spent some time tweaking knobs, pushing faders or chasing a mouse must have experienced that

- going stupid loud can kill just about anything we've come to value in tasteful mixes, not only 'a sense of space'.

- a more subtle bumping up of levels can bring out the ambient sound in a way which is not only pleasant (albeit different from the mix) but which can also expose textures which otherwise would go unnoticed.

i therefore have been using broadcasting processors for decades, if not on my mix bus then on the 2trk return (to make a more educated guess on how much damage can possibly get done).

worth noting that the measuring/read out of the levels is only one indicator (and possibly not even a very useful one in terms of aesthetics): a mix can measure perfectly well but sound horrible - and vice versa!


___


p.s. imo there's not way of capturing sound in a natural way; the gear/technique always has a considerable influence on the recording and using dynamic processing isn't inherently evil: besides being fastef than our fingers (to pull back a fader), their use can even be 'mandatory' (to emulate the effects of positioning a mic further away).

what often bugs me more than their use is that some dynamic processors are not well designed (as they have no or wrongly implemented hysteresis); also, they can affect the rhythm/groove in unnatural ways - in fact, i first and foremost consider them to be tools to shape the rhythmic structure/'groove'!

(drummer here as one might have guessed...)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 12:51 PM.. Reason: p.s. added
Old 2 weeks ago
  #36
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I think the notion of capturing a sense of space was lost long, long before the loudness wars. In most musical genres it never really existed in the first place. In some others, like jazz, it was important to have a sense of space but by no means was that expected to be a realistic one (as any of van Gelder's recordings will demonstrate).
--scott
Old 2 weeks ago
  #37
For me the work of john Hanes and Serban Ghenea is disproving that loud records can’t have a great deep ambience


and Good New York deep house records from the likes of Kerri chandler , Dennis Ferrer and roger sanchez also have depth and loudness . also the disciples here in the uk .Their arrangements, mixes and mastering all work together

...and IMO there are defo great ME's who are still doing tastefully loud AND deep mixes.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
I think the notion of capturing a sense of space was lost long, long before the loudness wars. In most musical genres it never really existed in the first place. In some others, like jazz, it was important to have a sense of space but by no means was that expected to be a realistic one (as any of van Gelder's recordings will demonstrate).
--scott
So, completely off-topic, but damn! When I read that signature of yours I was instantly transferred into a distant past called the Usenet, and remembered some guy called Scott Dorsey with the same signature line.

Welcome Scott, it's been a while!
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
I think the notion of capturing a sense of space was lost long, long before the loudness wars. In most musical genres it never really existed in the first place. In some others, like jazz, it was important to have a sense of space but by no means was that expected to be a realistic one (as any of van Gelder's recordings will demonstrate).
--scott
jan-erik kongshaug cannot get blamed for missing a sense of space either but 'realism' indeed is a fleeting if not vague goal.

imo it's less the capturing of a sense of space which is critical but maintaining it throughout the production or then creating the illusion that instruments could have performed in the same room: in far too many mixes imo romms don't match at all, to the point that it becomes distracting - and then there are these mixes which definitely have a sense of space but lack any meaningful localisation of sources in the soundfield or have no depth (or trade in one for the other)...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 11:22 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator ➡️
Welcome Scott, it's been a while!
Many thanks! I'm still alive and so is my Nagra! It is good seeing old friends popping out around here!
--scott
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