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Differences in Left and right with stereo tube gear, how much is normal?
Old 11th March 2021
  #1
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Differences in Left and right with stereo tube gear, how much is normal?

I had an issue with a unit drifting right, between a whole 1-2 db and also having sudden level changes when set and left. Did some tests running a stereo sine wave and saw the drastic drift, getting it swapped out for another.

But started wondering how much is normal? so I did the same tests with a couple tube units that were acting normal. Took tracks that should be dead centered(as a sine wave) and could see the ever slightest drift tilt to the left, but when bypassed on the unit dead centered. These drifts were very very small and not even a problem, could barely make the difference out on the meter. I measured the difference on the tube eq at around .10 db and on another saturator at about .08 db, clearly this is nothing like the other unit drifting a whole couple db and having sudden level changes. But I wanted to know how your guys's stereo tube gear responds to a dead centered signal?
Old 11th March 2021
  #2
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EDIT The first pic is actually bypassed and dead centered, the second pic has the slight drift left. When you click on them they are named. For some reason the attachments show up in backwards order.

I don't know how well these screens shots will look, but the first one is ever so slightest drift of .10 db to the left, and the second is it being dead centered when bypass engaged on the unit.

I don't use meters or analyzers when working for the most part and just my ears, but this all came about with the other unit in question that was having serious drifting and sudden level changes.

I would have never heard this slight level drift in a real life situation, and its completely useable don't get me wrong, but noticed it after the other situation and just wanted to know how much is normal?

thanks.
Attached Thumbnails
Differences in Left and right with stereo tube gear, how much is normal?-tube-eq-bypsaased-unit-dead-centered.png  
Attached Images
Differences in Left and right with stereo tube gear, how much is normal?-tube-eq-.10-drift-left.png 
Old 11th March 2021
  #3
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 
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I'd look for a contact issue. Try re-seating the tubes and connectors, cleaning pots and switches, etc.

0.1dB drift is no worry but any device you are depending on needs to be more stable than 1dB of drift. That's broken.
Old 11th March 2021 | Show parent
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson ➡️
I'd look for a contact issue. Try re-seating the tubes and connectors, cleaning pots and switches, etc.

0.1dB drift is no worry but any device you are depending on needs to be more stable than 1dB of drift. That's broken.
Thanks for the reply Greg, it really means a lot to me!

Thanks for those tips, in the future I’ll definitely keep them in mind. but I don’ trust myself at the moment with this unit to open it up and start fiddling with stuff, it’s fairly new and the retailer/distributor/manufacturer are super cool and going to swap it with a new one. I told them to check and see if the same unit is doing this on their end with one of the units they have on hand.

The guy from the company told me that with valves and tubes it’s really hard to ever get an identical left and right level, and that a little drift is perfectly normal, and you telling me that .10 is no worry has given me a great deal of peace of mind!

But yeah +1 db of drift is totally unusable, don’t care if it is or isn’t normal on that one haha.
Old 11th March 2021
  #5
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Sorry for making a new reply, I corrected the original post.

Just wanted to clarify I meant to put .08 not .8 in regards to the saturator. .8 would be unusable in my mind as well as it’s not that far from 1 db
Old 12th March 2021 | Show parent
  #6
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech ➡️
The guy from the company told me that with valves and tubes it’s really hard to ever get an identical left and right level, and that a little drift is perfectly normal, and you telling me that .10 is no worry has given me a great deal of peace of mind!
It depends on the process. An EQ should be pretty darn stable. A compressor may have more drift.

For example, it takes a bit of finessing to make my Requisite L2M match L vs R during gain reduction. The tube and optical stages are difficult to match when they are reacting to changing levels and doing gain reduction. But below threshold when there is essentially no gain reduction they are stable.

Last edited by Greg Reierson; 17th March 2021 at 01:36 PM..
Old 12th March 2021 | Show parent
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson ➡️
It depends on the process. An EQ should be pretty darn stable. A compressor may have more drift.

For example, it takes a bit of finessing to make my Requisite L2M match L vs R during gain reduction. The tube and optical stages are difficult to match when they are are reacting to changing levels and doing gain reduction. But below threshold when there is essentially now gain reduction they are stable.
Makes sense, the main unit I’m talking about no matter what drifts even when no compression is going on.

Also no matter what, as long as it’s centered, whether a solo’d kick or solo’d vocal all drift right a db with and without compression, also 100hz, 1000khz, 10,000khz sign wave all drift to the right as with vocals or kick r anything that supposed to be centered.

So you would consider the .10 db drift to the right from the tube eq pictures in original post stable? Or just no worry.

I really don’t think it’s much of anything but just confirming after being scar’d with the other units behavior.
Old 12th March 2021 | Show parent
  #8
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech ➡️
Makes sense, the main unit I’m talking about no matter what drifts even when no compression is going on.

Also no matter what, as long as it’s centered, whether a solo’d kick or solo’d vocal all drift right a db with and without compression, also 100hz, 1000khz, 10,000khz sign wave all drift to the right as with vocals or kick r anything that supposed to be centered.

So you would consider the .10 db drift to the right from the tube eq pictures in original post stable? Or just no worry.
If you can hear it, it's a problem. You won't notice a 0.1dB level change during a song but you should not be seeing 1 dB. Back to connections, seating tubes, etc. Probably something simple, but it's definitely something I'd want to fix.
Old 15th March 2021
  #9
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Trakworx's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech ➡️
But I wanted to know how your guys's stereo tube gear responds to a dead centered signal?
Mine tends to drift within a 0.2dB range throughout the day. I assume it's due to internal temperature changes. I check the L-R balance periodically to try to stay within 0.1dB. Sometimes it seems to be frequency related, as the low end drifts differently than the midrange, but since it's all within a 0.2dB range I haven't bothered to track that down. It might be interesting to check if you get different results with a 50Hz tone than you get with a 1K tone...
Old 15th March 2021 | Show parent
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
Mine tends to drift within a 0.2dB range throughout the day. I assume it's due to internal temperature changes. I check the L-R balance periodically to try to stay within 0.1dB. Sometimes it seems to be frequency related, as the low end drifts differently than the midrange, but since it's all within a 0.2dB range I haven't bothered to track that down. It might be interesting to check if you get different results with a 50Hz tone than you get with a 1K tone...
Hi Trakworx,

Before I sent the compressor back I solo’d a kick which frequency was fundamental at 60hz and it was drifting right a whole db, vocals the same and all the sine tests, but I’m sure the compressor had issues.

So I had a mixing session with one of the artist I work with yesterday, no mastering at the moment as I’m waiting to get back a swapped out tube compressor this week from the one I sent back that was drifting a 1 db and had sudden level jumps.

Anyways the only piece of analog gear I use while mixing is sold state, but I run every single track(no busses) through it, and then I use it again when mastering. At the end of the session when the unit is about as hot as it’s ever going to be it was drifting .02 db, crazy because every single other time I ever tested it, it was dead centered, not a big deal right? But there’s plenty of stereo tracks I use in the mix and having them all kissed with a .02 db drift left might be something but I doubt it, should be fine haha sweating emoji..

My new swapped out tube compressor should be here on Friday, I believe the company is saying after having it on the bench for 48 hours there’s a .20 db drift, I told them that’s fine and manageable. They said that’s normal but tops and shouldn’t be drifting anymore than that. The one i sent back had something wrong with it for sure.

Let say the new tube compressor comes back and it drifts .20 db to the left, my solid state piece when cooking seems to like .02 db to the left, my saturator something like .08 to the left 20 min on and maybe 0.09 to the left when cooking, and my tube eq .10 to the left, haven’t tested it after a three hours session usually after like 20 to 30 min.

Anyways so now my analog mastering chain would be drifting .40 db left, if the tube compressor ends up drifting right it evens things out, or either .02 db right or .01 db. to the right which would be a blessing. I run each unit out individually and back in through hardware inserts and not one chain, just wanted to mention that.

I still think .40 db for all of my units is manageable but not ideal. My saturator actually has a trim pot so I could shave off the .08 db, but it’s something I worry about doing because these drifts may vary constantly with source material as a whole track being fed and I wouldn’t want everything to be based off a sine test, so having the saturator as close as possible with out using the left and right trim pot is ideal. The tube compressor definitely had something off so that one’s different, but it did scar me haha and now I watch ever so carefully looking how much drift there is.

I’ll report back with screen shots this weekend when the unit comes in, of all four pieces as well and ask if you guys think however much drift it is should be good? I’d be laughing so happily if the compressor drift right .20 db and level out the lefts current .18 db to .20 db.
Old 16th March 2021 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
I check the L-R balance periodically to try to stay within 0.1dB.
Any suggestions on how to balance the drift?

I believe the compressor I'm getting back is drifting left. I believe both sides are meant to be identical on the unit, I wonder if I fed the left into the right/in, and right/out back into the left in on apollo would it be no different than switching the internals? My brain is telling me there would be something terribly wrong with this but I can't think of how, would the signal be treated exactly the same with this approach?

This method would balance the sine wave almost exactly. I'm prob not going to do it and deal with the .38-.40 db total drift left from all 4 units and see how it works out, but just going through solutions in my head.
Old 16th March 2021 | Show parent
  #12
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Trakworx's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech ➡️
Any suggestions on how to balance the drift?

I believe the compressor I'm getting back is drifting left. I believe both sides are meant to be identical on the unit, I wonder if I fed the left into the right/in, and right/out back into the left in on apollo would it be no different than switching the internals? My brain is telling me there would be something terribly wrong with this but I can't think of how, would the signal be treated exactly the same with this approach?

This method would balance the sine wave almost exactly. I'm prob not going to do it and deal with the .38-.40 db total drift left from all 4 units and see how it works out, but just going through solutions in my head.
That sounds complicated. Surely somewhere in your chain there are L and R gain pots or attenuators, no? Just tweak those. Failing that you could adjust ITB before the analog chain, or after capture. Flux Stereo Tool is freeware...

I use the pan/balance pot on my Tube-Tech SMC-2b which has a 4 dB total sweep and is great for fine adjustments.
Old 16th March 2021 | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
That sounds complicated. Surely somewhere in your chain there are L and R gain pots or attenuators, no? Just tweak those. Failing that you could adjust ITB before the analog chain, or after capture. Flux Stereo Tool is freeware...

I use the pan/balance pot on my Tube-Tech SMC-2b which has a 4 dB total sweep and is great for fine adjustments.
Yes, one of the units has a trim pot, only one, it would be ok to balance the final output from the one unit? It’s the second to last one in the chain, I just worry about how everything responds feeding different sources, what maybe balanced for the sine wave not so much for a real track, but that’s with anything I guess.

Thanks Trakworx, I’ll check the flux stereo and try those tips. I could never feel good about switching the inputs for such a thing haha and it would bother me more than anything.

I’m just over thinking as the other compressor was drifting so bad also level jumps and had problems that now I’m worried about the normal drift on units, but shouldn’t be in the same way.
Old 16th March 2021 | Show parent
  #14
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Trakworx's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech ➡️
it would be ok to balance the final output from the one unit?
Sure, why not? You're talking about tiny adjustments.
Old 16th March 2021 | Show parent
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
Sure, why not? You're talking about tiny adjustments.
Yeah, also could just use this guy right here. The lowest pan is 1R or 1L and it seems to cause a .12 db either way, which is good.

You think using the DAW utility would be a better/less altering approach than tweaking one of the trim pots on an actual unit?

Sorry about such questions, I know either would work, I'm just so cautious about tweaking anything left or right on the master buss as I've never needed to, my novice ness is a on full display.
Attached Thumbnails
Differences in Left and right with stereo tube gear, how much is normal?-screen-shot-2021-03-16-8.58.48-am.png  
Old 16th March 2021
  #16
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I would lean toward using the analog trim pots.
Old 16th March 2021 | Show parent
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx ➡️
I would lean toward using the analog trim pots.
Thanks for the tip/suggestion!
Old 17th March 2021 | Show parent
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech ➡️
Any suggestions on how to balance the drift?

I believe the compressor I'm getting back is drifting left. I believe both sides are meant to be identical on the unit, I wonder if I fed the left into the right/in, and right/out back into the left in on apollo would it be no different than switching the internals? My brain is telling me there would be something terribly wrong with this but I can't think of how, would the signal be treated exactly the same with this approach?

This method would balance the sine wave almost exactly. I'm prob not going to do it and deal with the .38-.40 db total drift left from all 4 units and see how it works out, but just going through solutions in my head.
You could use your compressor in m/s mode. You could also use this free hq utility plugin: http://www.airwindows.com/hermetrim/ or this one http://www.airwindows.com/everytrim/ there is an audible difference if you stack 20-some stock gain plugins (which truncate to the 32-bit floating point bus) vs 20-some airwindows plugins (all of which dither to the 32-bit floating point bus) but 1 vs 1 you probably won't notice. but still, why not use the best? and they are the best gain plugins. great dithers, too (try Dark), but that's off topic.
Old 17th March 2021 | Show parent
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Churlish ➡️
You could use your compressor in m/s mode. You could also use this free hq utility plugin: http://www.airwindows.com/hermetrim/ or this one http://www.airwindows.com/everytrim/ there is an audible difference if you stack 20-some stock gain plugins (which truncate to the 32-bit floating point bus) vs 20-some airwindows plugins (all of which dither to the 32-bit floating point bus) but 1 vs 1 you probably won't notice. but still, why not use the best? and they are the best gain plugins. great dithers, too (try Dark), but that's off topic.
I like Chris's posts and have seen tons of mention of his Airwindows plug-ins, haven't downloaded any but doing so is prob inevitable sometime soon.

For the task of balancing analog left and right drift though, I think I'm going leave the balancing solution within the analog chain. Thank goodness one of my units has a trim pot, just gonna balance the chain off of it. Last night I was making minor adjustments before my compressor comes in Friday to see how close I could get, and BAM! straight down the middle, dead centered to the tenth of a point, 0.00db, I never knew how satisfying such thing could be.
Old 20th March 2021
  #20
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hey guys I got my compressor and it seems to be drifting .28 db to the right, so much better than before, super manageable and can balance everything on trim pot of one of the units, so I went through and balanced entire analog chain(also 1 by 1 check each unit by itself to see what was a drifting) to 0.00 db, woohoo!

in mastering session I solo'd a kick and noticed getting drift to left, strange but I tracked it down to Ik tape machine 440 plug-in, I start off with preset "finish 1", anyways this setting which has a true stereo option cause a .25 db drift to the left for some reason, no matter what it seems to be to the left, but it's a plug-in so I guess it's intended right? I like the way the finish 1 preset sounds, but now I feel like what the hell? should I balance it out? I can, I would like to solo a kick or a vocal through my mastering chain and see it centered instead of drifting, anyways here's a couple screen shots, one of just the ik tape machine plug-in with a sine wave, and one with no tape just sine wav to show how much drift, it's .25 db. What do you guys think, should I balance the intentional drift on this plug-in?
Attached Thumbnails
Differences in Left and right with stereo tube gear, how much is normal?-no-tape-440-dead-centered.png   Differences in Left and right with stereo tube gear, how much is normal?-tape-440-finish-one-preset-.png  
Old 20th March 2021 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech ➡️
hey guys I got my compressor and it seems to be drifting .28 db to the right, so much better than before, super manageable and can balance everything on trim pot of one of the units, so I went through and balanced entire analog chain(also 1 by 1 check each unit by itself to see what was a drifting) to 0.00 db, woohoo!

in mastering session I solo'd a kick and noticed getting drift to left, strange but I tracked it down to Ik tape machine 440 plug-in, I start off with preset "finish 1", anyways this setting which has a true stereo option cause a .25 db drift to the left for some reason, no matter what it seems to be to the left, but it's a plug-in so I guess it's intended right? I like the way the finish 1 preset sounds, but now I feel like what the hell? should I balance it out? I can, I would like to solo a kick or a vocal through my mastering chain and see it centered instead of drifting, anyways here's a couple screen shots, one of just the ik tape machine plug-in with a sine wave, and one with no tape just sine wav to show how much drift, it's .25 db. What do you guys think, should I balance the intentional drift on this plug-in?
you know, we we just discussing (on another thread) the L/R imbalances in True Iron (in DNA mode) and a clever guy suggested running it inside some m/s encoding. not sure if m/s would work as well on a tape emulator but it might do the trick, and is probably worth trying just as an experiment!
Old 20th March 2021 | Show parent
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Churlish ➡️
you know, we we just discussing (on another thread) the L/R imbalances in True Iron (in DNA mode) and a clever guy suggested running it inside some m/s encoding. not sure if m/s would work as well on a tape emulator but it might do the trick, and is probably worth trying just as an experiment!
just tested the 440 at different frequencies and it's all over the place.

at 10,000 kHz it drifts .75 db right while at 258 hz which is the test in screenshots above its drifts .25 db tip the left, so just seems to be frequency dependent, (no need to balance that as far as I see it). it seems my solo'd kick was drifting further left than solo vocals.

I use true iron all the time with DNA, mostly in default, don't see too much drift there, thank for the m/s tip, will check it sometime.
Old 20th March 2021
  #23
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Testing my analog units again with 100hz, 1000khz, 10,000 kHz and 258hz which was the original C3 on piano roll.

My saturator is steady no matter where .08 to the left, tube eq varies from.10 to .06 to the left. My replacement compressor seems to go from left to right depending on the frequency, drift right in the lower frequencies and left in the higher ones, and also my solid stare unit seems to go drift left in the lower to right in the higher frequencies.

I’ve been balancing my chain with the 258hz sine wave but can see that’s almost useless with all the frequency dependent movement in my solid state and tube compressor, and a real life work flow is not any sine wav at any frequency. Could someone please explain how they would test in a real work flow situation balancing a mastering chain that would cover frequency dependent drift?

Thanks
Old 20th March 2021
  #24
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Trakworx's Avatar
 
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Pink noise.
Old 20th March 2021 | Show parent
  #25
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FabienTDR's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech ➡️
Any suggestions on how to balance the drift?
the problem is that you're messing with nonlinearities. There is absolutely no way to get this reasonably under control, especially not by using static offsets.

Imagine you're trying to match this stereo compressor's sidechains. You have absolutely no chance. The more you try to compensate each other, the more trouble appears. Simply because it is generally not solvable. the best one can do it to find a sweet spot among hundreds of nasty spots.



Stereo is clearly analogue audio gear's largest flaw. A pretty ridiculous one when compared to the vividness of all these -120dB talks about cable choice, dither and hilarious hi res formats (24bit and above, crazy high samplerates).

2-3dB of error or more is totally normal for even the most advanced "cost don't matter" analogue audio tech. Even simple "linear" concepts like amps and EQs fail miserably at keeping stereo at what it was at the input.

I'd suggest to learn to live with these issues and use them where they make most sense (e.g. when having to remix a boring predictable mix, stereo widening, when colouring audio, etc).
Attached Thumbnails
Differences in Left and right with stereo tube gear, how much is normal?-curves.fw.png  

Last edited by FabienTDR; 21st March 2021 at 04:54 AM..
Old 20th March 2021 | Show parent
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR ➡️
the problem is that you're messing with nonlinearities. There is absolutely no way to get this reasonably under control, especially not by using static offsets.

Imagine you're trying to match this stereo compressor's sidechains. You have absolutely no chance. The more you try to compensate each other, the more trouble appears. Simply because it is generally not solvable. the best one can do it to find a sweet spot among hundreds of nasty spots.



this is clearly analogue audio gear's largest flaw. A pretty ridiculous one when compared to the vividness of all these -120dB talks about cable choice, dither and hilarious hi res formats (24bit and above, crazy high samplerates).

2-3dB of error or more is totally normal for even the most advanced "cost don't matter" analogue audio tech. Even simple "linear" concepts like amps and EQs fail miserably at keeping stereo at what it was at the input.

I'd suggest to learn to live with these issues and use them where they make most sense (e.g. when having to remix a boring predictable mix, stereo widening, when colouring audio, etc).
Thank you for the wealth of info, I think I’ve learned this the hard way.

I was doing tests with the replacement compressor at 0 in and full output and it was producing no signal like you would imagine, same with full in and 0 output, no signal, the one i sent back was producing levels in both situations, there was something definitely wrong with it and I’m glad I got it replaced, but somebody could have very well told me it’s normal and I would have shrugged it off as normal, (the thing that made me spot it was the sudden level jumps) sent me off on an obsessive search in which many non linearities were uncovered, but all of them I take with a grain so salt and actually know it’s part of the magic and am happy with them.
Old 23rd March 2021
  #27
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 
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Tubes are imperfect.

That’s why they sound so great.

Be sure and let the unit warm up for 15-20 minutes before use,

Then shoot the standard tones through your chain, giving priority to 1kHz L/R balance.

Over the course of a day, I’ll adjust the L/R balance by ear numerous times on my Manley Vari Mu.

and check the tones again if necessary....

No reason to obsess... unless you think there's a bad tube, which can happen.

when replacing, ask for a matched set.

my aging (17 years) Manley sent to factory repair Twice over the last year anda half, now it’s Great...

retubed 2x, replaced a few other components replaced, and ultimately the big transformer.

just checked the DC balance yesterday after a few months use after repair, it was still so close to perfect that i didnt touch it.

best, jt
Old 28th March 2021 | Show parent
  #28
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Adam Dempsey's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb ➡️
Tubes are imperfect.

That’s why they sound so great.

Be sure and let the unit warm up for 15-20 minutes before use,

Then shoot the standard tones through your chain, giving priority to 1kHz L/R balance.

Over the course of a day, I’ll adjust the L/R balance by ear numerous times on my Manley Vari Mu.

and check the tones again if necessary....
1–2 hrs before I run any actual capture pass through it. (after again checking cal with tone).

Analog(ue):
"early 19th cent.: from French, from Greek analogon, neuter of analogos ‘proportionate’."
Old 28th March 2021
  #29
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seems to be different on different days yo. yesterday my tubecore 3u was off by 0.2 dB. today it's bang on. i guess i'll be checking the balance from now on before i bounce thru it. love that thing. mix knobs!! it's curious to see how plugins and the DAW workflow have influenced the design of analog gear. but that's another thread, ay.
Old 28th March 2021
  #30
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How big of a L-R imbalance do you think it would take for a client or a consumer to perceive it?
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