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Cranesong Stc 8 vs Dangerous Music Compressor
Old 6th May 2019
  #31
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wildplum's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I too am looking for an off the shelf XLR barrel HPF (to use with my STC-8); haven't found one. When you have the time, I would be very interested in the results of your tests. Thanks.
Old 11th July 2020
  #32
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🎧 10 years
I'm not sure if I get credit or condemnation for laying bare my ignorance ... but could someone please tell me what type of compressor the STC-8 is?

'Type' meaning FET, Optical, etc. I've tried to find this info in the manual, but without success.

Thanks for your charity!
Old 11th July 2020
  #33
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timmy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It’s PWM:http://www.cranesong.com/pwm_comp.pdf
Old 11th July 2020 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 10 years
@ timmy ... Thanks so much! Always something more to learn.
Old 13th July 2020 | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptheoctave ➡️
Just make one up- it is a DB15 connector with the pinout on p14 of the manual.
It is easy to make.
I bought the STC-8 a couple of years back that I was eyeing up . Have it set in position for most 2 buss duties. It's a great unit. Very heavy beast. I have it connected to a Millennia EQ with the FF mod.
Old 13th July 2020
  #36
Gear Nut
 
OTRM's Avatar
Question about the sidechain filter:

I notice that many hardware comps that utilize an external filter for the sidechain circuit have a send AND a return. Seems to me that you only need to input a signal into the comp's sidechain filter circuit. What is the purpose/intent of having an output on the comp's sidechain filter circuit as well?
Thnx
Old 15th August 2020 | Show parent
  #37
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jontornblom's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRM ➡️
Question about the sidechain filter:

I notice that many hardware comps that utilize an external filter for the sidechain circuit have a send AND a return. Seems to me that you only need to input a signal into the comp's sidechain filter circuit. What is the purpose/intent of having an output on the comp's sidechain filter circuit as well?
Thnx
“Sidechain” is an abused term in the internet audio engineering circles. What it actually refers to is the audio signal that is used to determine the level Of the audio signal and use that information to control the gain reduction of the compressor.

You may use it in several ways, one being sending a different instrument to the compressor side chain, most popularly done with the kick drum to make other elements “pump” or “duck”. Previously, it was used to “duck” the background audio under a vocalist or dialog (by sending the dialog to the sidechain of a compressor working on the background audio). I believe the reason you assume it only needs and input is because you are only aware of this use of the side chain access.

However, in a lot of applications it’s used to take the signal fed into the compressor to the outside world again for processing and brought back in to the detector circuit. This has a wide variety of applications and requires a send and return since you don’t want to manipulate the ACTUAL audio signal you want going through the audible part of the circuit, but instead only the sidechain audio. Example 1: cutting the lows so the kick/bass don’t control the compression more than mid/high information. Example 2: boosting sibilance region for using the compressor to control sibilance. In both of these cases it’s only the side chain audio that is processed, not the main audio signal.

Hope that makes sense.
Old 16th August 2020 | Show parent
  #38
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OTRM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom ➡️
“Sidechain” is an abused term in the internet audio engineering circles. What it actually refers to is the audio signal that is used to determine the level Of the audio signal and use that information to control the gain reduction of the compressor.

You may use it in several ways, one being sending a different instrument to the compressor side chain, most popularly done with the kick drum to make other elements “pump” or “duck”. Previously, it was used to “duck” the background audio under a vocalist or dialog (by sending the dialog to the sidechain of a compressor working on the background audio). I believe the reason you assume it only needs and input is because you are only aware of this use of the side chain access.

However, in a lot of applications it’s used to take the signal fed into the compressor to the outside world again for processing and brought back in to the detector circuit. This has a wide variety of applications and requires a send and return since you don’t want to manipulate the ACTUAL audio signal you want going through the audible part of the circuit, but instead only the sidechain audio. Example 1: cutting the lows so the kick/bass don’t control the compression more than mid/high information. Example 2: boosting sibilance region for using the compressor to control sibilance. In both of these cases it’s only the side chain audio that is processed, not the main audio signal.

Hope that makes sense.
Thanks. I understand the concept of feeding a processed audio signal (not the program audio) to a compressor sidechain input and using it to control how the compressor acts on the program audio. Also, understand the concept of a ducker.

What I'm unclear about is what one would do with a compressor's sidechain output signal. Also, does that signal differ from the sidechain input signal? Is it passed thru from input to output unchanged or does the compressor do something to it's sidechain input signal before passing it along? Anyone have an example of using a compressor's sidechain output signal...?

Thanks
Old 16th August 2020 | Show parent
  #39
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SmoothTone's Avatar
 
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRM ➡️
What I'm unclear about is what one would do with a compressor's sidechain output signal. . . Anyone have an example of using a compressor's sidechain output signal...?
Send it to an EQ.
Old 16th August 2020 | Show parent
  #40
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothTone ➡️
Send it to an EQ.
So, comped source material goes out to EQ and from EQ back to comp side chain in again?

Or is the output from the comp routed off before comp processing?

If trying to understand how this would be any different than multing the signal off to an EQ before it hits the comp and then just sending the EQ into the side chain.
Old 16th August 2020 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by prado escondido ➡️
If trying to understand how this would be any different than multing the signal off to an EQ before it hits the comp and then just sending the EQ into the side chain.
There are many more variables when you split the signal outside of the compressor. Passive split? Active split? Any gain?

The sidechain send is usually split after the input circuitry of the compressor and is of the correct level that the detector expects compared to the program signal (that is actually getting compressed). When you are splitting the signal outside of the compressor these variables are unknown to the compressor and so the controls on the compressor may not respond in the same way as when processing the copy coming from the sidechain send.

That's how I understand it anyway. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Old 16th August 2020 | Show parent
  #42
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jontornblom's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRM ➡️
Thanks. I understand the concept of feeding a processed audio signal (not the program audio) to a compressor sidechain input and using it to control how the compressor acts on the program audio. Also, understand the concept of a ducker.

What I'm unclear about is what one would do with a compressor's sidechain output signal. Also, does that signal differ from the sidechain input signal? Is it passed thru from input to output unchanged or does the compressor do something to it's sidechain input signal before passing it along? Anyone have an example of using a compressor's sidechain output signal...?

Thanks
You first need to realize that right now you don’t fully understand what the sidechain is. Drop your current definition and relearn it.

Every compressor always has a sidechain. It’s the part of the circuit that the compressor uses to assess the audio level and the gain reduction that the compressor will apply to the audio. It is usually the same audio fed to the compressor inputs, split and sent to the sidechain circuit.

You have three possible ways of using the sidechain audio

1. Internal: the audio from the compressor input is split and sent to the sidechain internally. (Nothing connected to sidechain input/output) All compressors work like this by default.
2. External: the sidechain source is different than the audio connected to the compressor inputs. (Source connected to sidechain input only)
3. Internal-processed-externally: the audio from the compressor input is split and sent to the sidechain. The sidechain signal is then sent out of the sidechain output for external processing, which is then fed back into the sidechain via sidechain input. Think of this like an fx loop for your internal sidechain.

Let’s not get into feed forward or feed backward here as you are only asking about connecting the sidechain output/input.

Last edited by jontornblom; 16th August 2020 at 04:28 PM..
Old 16th August 2020 | Show parent
  #43
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vyedmic ➡️
There are many more variables when you split the signal outside of the compressor. Passive split? Active split? Any gain?

The sidechain send is usually split after the input circuitry of the compressor and is of the correct level that the detector expects compared to the program signal (that is actually getting compressed). When you are splitting the signal outside of the compressor these variables are unknown to the compressor and so the controls on the compressor may not respond in the same way as when processing the copy coming from the sidechain send.

That's how I understand it anyway. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I couldn't possibly "correct" you. Thanks. It makes perfect sense.
Old 16th August 2020 | Show parent
  #44
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Alécio Costa's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
2007 x 2020

It is 2020, Covid days.
I still love the STC8, use it 100% of times with a maximum of 1dB of gain Reduction, rarely 2dB.
I have been using it since 2010.

The Pendulum OCL2 has been used less since 2007. But several times it is just the trick.
I would like to have the Neve MBP also.
Old 16th August 2020 | Show parent
  #45
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engmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alécio Costa ➡️
It is 2020, Covid days.
I still love the STC8, use it 100% of times with a maximum of 1dB of gain Reduction, rarely 2dB.
I have been using it since 2010.

The Pendulum OCL2 has been used less since 2007. But several times it is just the trick.
I would like to have the Neve MBP also.
Do you find yourself using the STC-8 presets or in variable mode?
Old 17th August 2020 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Nut
 
OTRM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom ➡️
You first need to realize that right now you don’t fully understand what the sidechain is. Drop your current definition and relearn it.

Every compressor always has a sidechain. It’s the part of the circuit that the compressor uses to assess the audio level and the gain reduction that the compressor will apply to the audio. It is usually the same audio fed to the compressor inputs, split and sent to the sidechain circuit.

You have three possible ways of using the sidechain audio

1. Internal: the audio from the compressor input is split and sent to the sidechain internally. (Nothing connected to sidechain input/output) All compressors work like this by default.
2. External: the sidechain source is different than the audio connected to the compressor inputs. (Source connected to sidechain input only)
3. Internal-processed-externally: the audio from the compressor input is split and sent to the sidechain. The sidechain signal is then sent out of the sidechain output for external processing, which is then fed back into the sidechain via sidechain input. Think of this like an fx loop for your internal sidechain.

Let’s not get into feed forward or feed backward here as you are only asking about connecting the sidechain output/input.
Understand, thanks.
Looking at the connections to an STC8 made me think about this and ask. I don't own one of those (yet) so I'm going to guess here:

According to the above definitions, it looks like the STC8 is capable of operating in either Mode 2 (External) or Mode 3 (Internal-processed-externally).
If you were to operate it in Mode 2, you would feed an external(-ly processed) audio source into the STC8 Sidechain Input. (Maybe from an Aux send containing a processed version of the main program or whatever signal is to be compressed)
If you were to operate it in Mode 3, you would send the STC8 Sidechain Output to an EQ, for example, and then route the output of that EQ to the STC8 Sidechain Input. In this case, it would seem logical that the signal at the Sidechain Output is identical to signal at the compressor's Main Input...

Correct...?
Thanks
Old 17th August 2020 | Show parent
  #47
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jontornblom's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRM ➡️
Understand, thanks.
Looking at the connections to an STC8 made me think about this and ask. I don't own one of those (yet) so I'm going to guess here:

According to the above definitions, it looks like the STC8 is capable of operating in either Mode 2 (External) or Mode 3 (Internal-processed-externally).
If you were to operate it in Mode 2, you would feed an external(-ly processed) audio source into the STC8 Sidechain Input. (Maybe from an Aux send containing a processed version of the main program or whatever signal is to be compressed)
If you were to operate it in Mode 3, you would send the STC8 Sidechain Output to an EQ, for example, and then route the output of that EQ to the STC8 Sidechain Input. In this case, it would seem logical that the signal at the Sidechain Output is identical to signal at the compressor's Main Input...

Correct...?
Thanks
Yes! That’s all correct. It operates with the internal sidechain if nothing is connected to the sidechain output/input, but if you connect to either sidechain output or input, it breaks that internal connection like an fx loop on a guitar amp would.

It’s understandable that there has been some confusion about this because the way the sidechain is used in DAW’s/plugins is a little more streamlined but a little less obvious as to what it does.

There are a lot of cool tweaks you can do when you have access to the sidechain. Have fun experimenting!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #48
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OTRM's Avatar
I actually - finally - sprung for an STC-8/M the other day. Should arrive by the end of the week or so. Been eyeing these for years so I'm really excited to install it and start using it.

With respect to the previous lessons on using the side-chain.....I do have another question in a mastering context:

Obviously, the best scenario for externally processing the side-chain signal would be to route the compressor S/C output to a hardware EQ and then route the output of that EQ back to the compressor S/C input.

What I'm wondering is, if you were to route the compressor S/C output to an ADC, assign the ADC output to a separate track in the DAW, place an EQ plug on that track, route that track output to a DAC and then route the output of that DAC back into the compressor S/C input......would there be too much latency in the loop from compressor S/C output thru the ADC/DAW/EQ/DAC and back to the compressor S/C input that it would mess with the compressor's S/C circuit causing the compressor respond in a non-favorable way?

I use the Softube Weiss DS1 and it's External S/C circuit and point the S/C to a separate track with an EQ plug on it. The DAW (Samplitude) is able to compensate for any latency (probably minimal) involved in that circuit and it seems to work quite well. Still I wonder if the conversion trip + EQ plug would introduce too much latency to be usable to process a hardware compressor S/C circuit. Assuming it matters, how much latency would be too much?

Anyone have any input on this?
Thnx
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #49
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DBarbarulo's Avatar
 
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
If your daw allows for outboard use the overall track delay will be compensated for both plugins and DA-AD loops.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #50
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OTRM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBarbarulo ➡️
If your daw allows for outboard use the overall track delay will be compensated for both plugins and DA-AD loops.
True if you're starting ITB. However, in this case, the signal starts at the hardware comp S/C output. Not sure how well it will work sending the comp's S/C signal into the DAW, thru an EQ plug, out of the DAW and then back into the comp's S/C input. Seems if there's any latency involved in that loop that it might throw curveballs at the comp but I dunno. Guess I'll find out.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga ➡️
In market for Transparent compressor before my Manley Variable Mu. Both compressors are considered to be Transparent. So whats the difference?
It's already been said, but if you want compression without the sound of compression, the STC-8 is perfect. It does add a little sheen, but mainly it just stays out of the way. My favorite kind of compressor for basically everything.

Last edited by rwhitney; 4 weeks ago at 11:50 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #52
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DBarbarulo's Avatar
 
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRM ➡️
True if you're starting ITB. However, in this case, the signal starts at the hardware comp S/C output. Not sure how well it will work sending the comp's S/C signal into the DAW, thru an EQ plug, out of the DAW and then back into the comp's S/C input. Seems if there's any latency involved in that loop that it might throw curveballs at the comp but I dunno. Guess I'll find out.....
the thing is simpler than that, the compressor has no sidechain output but only a sidechain input. You may do a send of your track so the original goes to the compressor IN and the aux goes to compressor's Sidechain IN. On this aux/send you'll use an eq. Both original signal and eqed aux will be time corrected by the daw.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #53
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OTRM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBarbarulo ➡️
the thing is simpler than that, the compressor has no sidechain output but only a sidechain input. You may do a send of your track so the original goes to the compressor IN and the aux goes to compressor's Sidechain IN. On this aux/send you'll use an eq. Both original signal and eqed aux will be time corrected by the daw.
Yep, thought of that scenario as well. Only "issue" with that is the feed to the S/C Input would not have any processing on it that might occur between the DAW and the comp's Input (not that that really matters much) - whereas if I were to take the STC-8 SC Output and send it back into the DAW, that signal would be the same as what's present at the comp's Input. It'll be interesting to experiment....
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #54
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRM ➡️
Yep, thought of that scenario as well. Only "issue" with that is the feed to the S/C Input would not have any processing on it that might occur between the DAW and the comp's Input (not that that really matters much) - whereas if I were to take the STC-8 SC Output and send it back into the DAW, that signal would be the same as what's present at the comp's Input. It'll be interesting to experiment....
no.
1 Take the original track you want to compress and send it through your audio card to compressor's audio input.
2 Make a copy of the original track on another track or create an aux and route to the aux the original uncompressed track.
3 On your copy or aux send put a plugin eq.
4 Route the copy or the aux send to another sound card output and connect it to the sidechain input.

Now you have 2 stereo pairs going out from the daw, 1 is the signal to be compressed and 2 is the pilot/sidechain signal you may want to eq. Both channels are time aligned by the daw.
You need only to capture back the compressor's output using a single stereo AD.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #55
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OTRM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBarbarulo ➡️
1 Take the original track you want to compress and send it through your audio card to compressor's audio input.
2 Make a copy of the original track on another track or create an aux and route to the aux the original uncompressed track.
3 On your copy or aux send put a plugin eq.
4 Route the copy or the aux send to another sound card output and connect it to the sidechain input.
I had actually called Crane Song last week and asked Dave about this exact method. He didn't like it and I didn't quite understand his reasoning why. Seems like it would work to me. Maybe someone here knows why...??

I think I'm going to give it a try and see what happens. Do you need the little jumper between pins 3 and 4 in the STC-8 Side Chain dB15 in order for this to work? Or is that only for when you send signal out of the comp's S/C Output and then back into it's S/C Input?
Thnx
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #56
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Alécio Costa's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by engmix ➡️
Do you find yourself using the STC-8 presets or in variable mode?
VAR and Peak Threshold always off.
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