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Is it me? Or is it my gear? (An endless route to a better mix?)
Old 19th September 2012
  #61
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️

Cool - the only problem you'll find is that if you want your guitars/bass upfront, the kick won't cut through. The reason older records have thuddier kicks is there's little to no low bass end; as soon as you add that bass end in, you lose the kick thud, so need the click to keep it present. It's always a trade-off...

Otherwise, there's not a great deal of point recording a room mic if the room is small and dead. Better to try and fake it with a good sounding room verb. Underheads are just a different way of recording overheads, not really room mics.

All of the above is IMO!
Yea, sure we need some click in the kick, but we still don't want it to stick out as much as alot of modern metal.

When I ask about underheads i didn't think about room sound. More to compensate for a low ceiling over the OH.
Old 19th September 2012
  #62
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
OP,

You ask for mixing advice, but the samples of your song you posted are just drums. It is impossible to create a mix of a band while hearing only one instrument. It is also impossible to advise you on how to create a mix if the only instrument we can hear are drums.

Regarding the samples you posted, the drummer is making mistakes on the kick drum. Bad performance = bad mix. Fix that **** by having him play it right. If he can't play it right then edit it, if possible, to sound like he did. It will make mixing much easier.

Mixing isn't about radically transforming good recordings, it's just balancing them. Balancing volumes, frequencies, etc...
Actually I wanted help in findig the weakest link in my studio, and I only posted the dry drums as a 'should I be able to work with this' q.

When it comes to the faults in playing this has no impact on the actual sound, wich is what you should be listening too if you want to comment. This guy have really no problems with playing 'perfect' to a metronome, this was just a one take one go thing as part of the writing prosses.
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #63
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
Yea, sure we need some click in the kick, but we still don't want it to stick out as much as alot of modern metal.

When I ask about underheads i didn't think about room sound. More to compensate for a low ceiling over the OH.
OK - I'm not sure you'd get enough click from that recorded sound. Maybe you will.

As for underheads, you mentioned "small room" in the same sentence...hence the confusion. No, I think mics pointing up at the ceiling would be worse. I'd stick to cardioids over the kit, and as close as possible, to minimise the small room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
Actually I wanted help in findig the weakest link in my studio, and I only posted the dry drums as a 'should I be able to work with this' q.

When it comes to the faults in playing this has no impact on the actual sound, wich is what you should be listening too if you want to comment. This guy have really no problems with playing 'perfect' to a metronome, this was just a one take one go thing as part of the writing prosses.
mmm...just about every piece of constructive criticism, you seem to have an answer for - are you SURE you're looking for advice? If you're going to post something, don't then spend ages defending it! How are we meant to know what you're looking for if every critique is rebutted with a "how dare you criticise, I wasn't looking for that" type of tone (that "if you want to comment" line would p1ss me off if directed at me - it's not your BBoard, anyone can comment and you don't own a thread just 'cos you started it!).

IMChild is right - the playing here is by far the biggest problem in getting a good mix, IF we were giving an honest critique (which you don't appear to want), and IF we were judging by what you've uploaded (which we're not being asked to do apparently).

I'm not really sure what advice you can be given, so I think I'll sign off here with "good luck"...surely that's positive?!
Old 19th September 2012
  #64
Lives for gear
 
The Elf's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I have to agree with those saying that the performance is ropey. If this were the best I was going to get from the drummer I'd now head for multi-track audio quantise before taking any further steps.

This aside, the first thing I'm thinking is that there may be phase problems killing this drum sound. In the first example the kick is very honky, which is often a sign that there's a phase fight going on somewhere.

Obviously it's impossible to be exacting when presented with an end-result, but if I was faced with this drum sound while the mic's were still set (and assuming this needs to be a 'metal' drum sound - and let's assume the drums are tuned as you like them in the room) I would be:
- adding a kick beater mic (I favour an SM91 near the inside beater point)
- centring the OH mic's
- lowering the OH mic's
- trying alternative snare mic's (I like an SM57, but sometimes an Audix i5, or an MD441 are preferable)
- trying alternative kick mic's (an Audix D6 is my current favourite for rock/metal kicks)
- triple-checking the phase of every mic
- adding hat, ride and under-snare mic's
- adding a couple of distant room mic options

I'm not averse to time-aligning drum mic tracks for metal either. For me the attack is very important and I want to emphasise this for kick, snare and toms, in that order of priority.

Also for metal I get aggressive with HPF on the OH tracks - the close mic's are all-important and the OH's are often little more than cymbal mic's.

All of this rough guides only - it's all about time, place and context.
Old 19th September 2012
  #65
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
OK - I'm not sure you'd get enough click from that recorded sound. Maybe you will.

As for underheads, you mentioned "small room" in the same sentence...hence the confusion. No, I think mics pointing up at the ceiling would be worse. I'd stick to cardioids over the kit, and as close as possible, to minimise the small room.



mmm...just about every piece of constructive criticism, you seem to have an answer for - are you SURE you're looking for advice? If you're going to post something, don't then spend ages defending it! How are we meant to know what you're looking for if every critique is rebutted with a "how dare you criticise, I wasn't looking for that" type of tone (that "if you want to comment" line would p1ss me off if directed at me - it's not your BBoard, anyone can comment and you don't own a thread just 'cos you started it!).

IMChild is right - the playing here is by far the biggest problem in getting a good mix, IF we were giving an honest critique (which you don't appear to want), and IF we were judging by what you've uploaded (which we're not being asked to do apparently).

I'm not really sure what advice you can be given, so I think I'll sign off here with "good luck"...surely that's positive?!
You're right in what you are saying. I see now that the way I formulated myself was rude, but it was really not my intention, so sorry about that, IMChild. What i wanted to explain was that the playing won't be a problem in the future when we do a proper recording. And I wanted more critique of the actuall dry sound, if there are big problems already at that stage.
Old 19th September 2012
  #66
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
OP,

You ask for mixing advice, but the samples of your song you posted are just drums. It is impossible to create a mix of a band while hearing only one instrument. It is also impossible to advise you on how to create a mix if the only instrument we can hear are drums.

Regarding the samples you posted, the drummer is making mistakes on the kick drum. Bad performance = bad mix. Fix that **** by having him play it right. If he can't play it right then edit it, if possible, to sound like he did. It will make mixing much easier.

Mixing isn't about radically transforming good recordings, it's just balancing them. Balancing volumes, frequencies, etc...
I didn't mean to be rude before. I posted 0600 in the morning and I guess I was a little grumpy. Still not a good excuse though. I'm sorry. What i meant to say was that, if you imagine the drums being tight, would the actuall raw sounds be ok? As my problem is that i really don't know what sound I'm looking for when miking. I only realize the problem when I Get to mixing. Thats also why I thought the rest of the mix was not important. Again, sorry for attacking your answer.
Old 19th September 2012
  #67
Gear Maniac
 
k3nnyt4n's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Practical Drum Kit Miking, Part 1
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #68
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elf ➡️
I have to agree with those saying that the performance is ropey. If this were the best I was going to get from the drummer I'd now head for multi-track audio quantise before taking any further steps.

This aside, the first thing I'm thinking is that there may be phase problems killing this drum sound. In the first example the kick is very honky, which is often a sign that there's a phase fight going on somewhere.

Obviously it's impossible to be exacting when presented with an end-result, but if I was faced with this drum sound while the mic's were still set (and assuming this needs to be a 'metal' drum sound - and let's assume the drums are tuned as you like them in the room) I would be:
- adding a kick beater mic (I favour an SM91 near the inside beater point)
- centring the OH mic's
- lowering the OH mic's
- trying alternative snare mic's (I like an SM57, but sometimes an Audix i5, or an MD441 are preferable)
- trying alternative kick mic's (an Audix D6 is my current favourite for rock/metal kicks)
- triple-checking the phase of every mic
- adding hat, ride and under-snare mic's
- adding a couple of distant room mic options

I'm not averse to time-aligning drum mic tracks for metal either. For me the attack is very important and I want to emphasise this for kick, snare and toms, in that order of priority.

Also for metal I get aggressive with HPF on the OH tracks - the close mic's are all-important and the OH's are often little more than cymbal mic's.

All of this rough guides only - it's all about time, place and context.
Yes, I didn't check phase at all when putting up the OHs so I'm guessing things can get much better on that part - and as for the kick being honky I now hope is from the phase issue, that would really help things along
Also the kick mic (D112) was places just inside the sound hole and might have been 'blinded' by the dampening. I have now placed if further in and more to the centre for the next try. Hope this gives a better result when also checking phase. Why I did these mistakes I don't know - got lost in the heat of the moment I guess. :/

Yeserday I actually placed a 57 as a beater mic - looking forward to trying this. Unfortunately I only have 8 ins so I had to get rid of the hat mic - but luckily this is just testing to see how things work out.

When you say "centering' the mic's", what is it that you are hearing as a problem? Cause I'm not sure I would hear the difference without knowing what to listen for. And do you mean actual moving the mic's, or just about angle? I'm going to check this out for myself ofc, just have to wait for my drummer to have the time
I'll also try to lower the mic's.

When I miked the snare I had a 57-top and a 421-bottom - I'll try to make a switch next time.

As for kick mic I used the D112, but I also have a 7B that I'll try next time. The reason I chose the D112 this time was because of the weight of the 7B pulling the stand down. The 7B was placed on the floor tom (20") so I'll just try a switch on those.

And thank you - your info is very informative
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #69
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovenara ➡️
Nice, thanks. SOS always have good stuff.

I think actually I have read this article before - but that was a long time ago, can't seem to remember anything of it except the title. So thanks for the link.
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #70
Lives for gear
 
dxavier's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovenara ➡️
Mixing is byfar the most difficult thing i ever tried,i did lot of things ( singing,writing,playing dr,bass,guitar,piano,lot of sports too).It took me about 2years after i purchased KRK ,now i can say i pass its learning curve now.
The only solution for me when try to pass learning curves of some skills is doit,doit,keep doing it,...

Oh there is one more thing i can suggest ,mixing is about making the BEAUTIFUL recording,we always forget this when we confront with lots of tracks.
Try mixing only one track or 2 first ( only vocal or vocal acoustic guitar)and tweak them,fx them,do whatever to make them beautiful.
It's funny, I really like mixing and hearing the track blossom right in front of you, BUT, there is no fun....EVER, in polishing a turd. The performance itself has to be there.
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #71
Lives for gear
 
The Elf's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
When you say "centering' the mic's", what is it that you are hearing as a problem?
The snare isn't quite centred. I like my OHs to be equidistant from the snare.
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Maniac
 
IdiotManchild's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
I didn't mean to be rude before. I posted 0600 in the morning and I guess I was a little grumpy. Still not a good excuse though. I'm sorry.
No problem, apology accepted. I'm just giving you honest feedback, not trying to pick a fight on teh interwebs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
What i meant to say was that, if you imagine the drums being tight, would the actuall raw sounds be ok?
No. I do not think the raw sound is particularly good. It is not horrible, but could certainly be improved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
As my problem is that i really don't know what sound I'm looking for when miking. I only realize the problem when I Get to mixing.
That is the problem; you don't know what you are looking for when miking. You say you want a specific sound, but you're not recording that sound. There is no life in the clip of raw drums you posted.

The drums sound super dead, the snare barely rings at all and thus will not cut through a wall of metal the way a snare should. The Kick drum is too muffled and dull sounding. The cymbals sound harsh, probably the cymbals themselves. The sound you have going here is the typical sound I hear from inexperienced local metal bands playing live.

You have to fix that stuff before miking. And when you do mic, try one mic at a time, seriously. Get one mono room mic for the whole kit and make sure it sounds very, very good before adding more.

It's metal, so you will really need close mics: inside and outside kick, snare top and possibly bottom, a mic on each tom, hi hat, and ride cymbal.

If you are limited with inputs, get a cheap mixer and make submixes of things like the kick mics and snare mics so you can record them through one input on your interface instead of two. So you can use more mics than you have tracks.
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #73
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
The drums sound super dead
It's a pretty small room, but with not that much treatment, and only on the rear wall - Should I try to take out the panels? I'll try it either way to hear the difference. (Wall hung panels I easily can remove)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
the snare barely rings at all and thus will not cut through a wall of metal the way a snare should.
We actually put moon-gel on the snare to tame it, maybe that was not such a good choice. For me a ringing drum have always been annoying, but maybe it's different when recording?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
The Kick drum is too muffled and dull sounding.
Yes, way to muffled, and crappy heads. But as mentioned in a previous post we're waiting for new heads to arrive (for the whole set). I'll try with new heads and less muffling there as well. And other mic positions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
The cymbals sound harsh, probably the cymbals themselves.
I hope it's not so much the cymbals as it is mic placement. They are hi grade cymbals - but then again, maybe better suited for live - I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
The sound you have going here is the typical sound I hear from inexperienced local metal bands playing live.
Yup, and thats what bugs me - and want to fix. But to me it all sounds good all the way up until I try to mix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
Get one mono room mic for the whole kit and make sure it sounds very, very good before adding more.
Sounds like a good idea, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
If you are limited with inputs, get a cheap mixer and make submixes of things like the kick mics and snare mics so you can record them through one input on your interface instead of two. So you can use more mics than you have tracks.
Won't a cheap mixer with cheap preamps affect the sound in a bad way rather than improving the sound by allowing more mic's?


I'll try to fix these things for next time, and I'll try the mono room mic for listening. Thanks for the tips, man.
Old 19th September 2012
  #74
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The Elf's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The big problem you're facing is that you have:

a) a strong opinion about what you want to hear (which is good)
b) a strong opinion about how you want to achieve it (which is good)

...but you don't yet have sufficient skills in the tracking/mixing process to realise that the two are not necessarily compatible.

I might have the strong opinions that:

a) I want to make a blockbuster 3D movie like Prometheus
b) I want to make it using my mum's 1970s Polaroid camera

My advice is to be open-minded. Some of the guys giving advice here are really trying to help you, but you have to be realistically balanced.
If you're going to stick to your guns about your methods you may need to compromise the results.
If you're going to stick to your guns about the results you may need to compromise your methods.
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #75
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elf ➡️
The big problem you're facing is that you have:

a) a strong opinion about what you want to hear (which is good)
b) a strong opinion about how you want to achieve it (which is good)

...but you don't yet have sufficient skills in the tracking/mixing process to realise that the two are not necessarily compatible.

I might have the strong opinions that:

a) I want to make a blockbuster 3D movie like Prometheus
b) I want to make it using my mum's 1970s Polaroid camera

My advice is to be open-minded. Some of the guys giving advice here are really trying to help you, but you have to be realistically balanced about the results, if you're going to stick to your guns about the method - or the method if you want to achieve the results. You may just need to compromise one for the other.
Yes, I'll just have to keep on going and see how close I can get to my goal before I realize I have to choose another way. (Funny how this thread turned out to be about metal-drums btw).

Another point for me with this is to figure out more about what I can do with the methods I want to use and the gear I have available. Hoping that this will give me an insight in what one can achieve with 'method x'. Thats also why I don't want to jump to for example drum replacement just because I don't really know how to achieve certain sounds when miking a drum kit, thinking that it can make me 'blind' to other options when presented a challenge where one normally wouldn't need to use replacement. If you understand what I mean. I want to get to know what I can do with what I have - by practise - and through that way also get a better understanding of the limitations of different methods.

Like, if it in the end turns out that my room is actually too small to produce a good drum sound, I' still have the chance to get it a little better each time, learning how to cope with different problems. And even though I still wont be able to get a good drum sound in that room I will have learned some things that I might have use for at a later date when presented the same challenge.

This would have been so much easier to explain in norwegian. Hope you understand what I mean :P


edit:
But since this thread have turned into what it is now, and that so many of you seem to have good experience and know what you are talking about, I'll just keep on posting raw drums in hope of feedback that can help me a step further. And if you guys then 'ignore' the metal part of things and comment on it as a more general level I will learn ALOT. Like problem frequencies and the room being to dead. Like before, I heard the kick was to honky, but I could not hear that the room was to dead sounding.

Or maybe there is a raw-drum-thread?
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #76
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Guest
I think I wasn't paying much attention and skipped the part where you was talking about drums LOL!..
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #77
Gear Maniac
 
IdiotManchild's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
It's a pretty small room, but with not that much treatment, and only on the rear wall - Should I try to take out the panels? I'll try it either way to hear the difference. (Wall hung panels I easily can remove)
I can't really comment on the room too much, cuz I've never been in your room. I didn't find the room sound offensive. When I said "the drums sound dead" I was referring to the drum kit, not the room. The room didn't stick out as being a problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
We actually put moon-gel on the snare to tame it, maybe that was not such a good choice. For me a ringing drum have always been annoying, but maybe it's different when recording?
It's tough to damp the drums in this context because you aren't recording all the instruments at once. I usually do some kind of damping when I record, sometimes a tiny bit, sometimes a whole lot. But I do that upon hearing the drums within the context of the whole band playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
I hope it's not so much the cymbals as it is mic placement. They are hi grade cymbals - but then again, maybe better suited for live - I don't know.
Well, if the cymbals sound good to your ears but not the mics, then it's either the mic placement, or the mics themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
Won't a cheap mixer with cheap preamps affect the sound in a bad way rather than improving the sound by allowing more mic's?
Well, this is Gearslutz, home of the Preamp Cult! It is always best to have the best preamp available for the job at hand. However......... an inferior preamp is always better than no preamp. What you gain in flexibility will more than make up for any negative affect that a cheap pre has on the sound. There are some really bad cheap mixers, and some not bad at all. Get the best you can afford. This is "low end theory", so I suggested something low end.heh


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
I'll try to fix these things for next time, and I'll try the mono room mic for listening. Thanks for the tips, man.
No problem, dude. Good luck.

One more thing. Old drum heads are not acceptable for metal!!! Never!
Old 20th September 2012 | Show parent
  #78
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevaso ➡️
You're right in what you are saying. I see now that the way I formulated myself was rude, but it was really not my intention, so sorry about that, IMChild. What i wanted to explain was that the playing won't be a problem in the future when we do a proper recording. And I wanted more critique of the actuall dry sound, if there are big problems already at that stage.


Onwards and upwards!
Old 20th September 2012
  #79
Gear Nut
 
Kevaso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdiotManchild ➡️
Well, this is Gearslutz, home of the Preamp Cult! It is always best to have the best preamp available for the job at hand. However......... an inferior preamp is always better than no preamp. What you gain in flexibility will more than make up for any negative affect that a cheap pre has on the sound. There are some really bad cheap mixers, and some not bad at all. Get the best you can afford. This is "low end theory", so I suggested something low end.heh
Understandable :P I run eight Audient Pres into an Aurora 8 and I do have a STK mixer available. I'll do an A/B test on those and then maybe get the optional AD card for the Audient if I like the sound in the mixer. That would give me 6 new channels (mixer out [main, sub and auxes])
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