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SM7b and Gap Gre-73, Which FMR Comp?
Old 13th September 2012
  #1
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🎧 10 years
SM7b and Gap Gre-73, Which FMR Comp?

Hi I use a SM7b and GAP Pre-73 for Vocals and cabs. This thread focuses on vocals. I have a Baritone Vocal singing voice that is loud and can venture in into the Tenor range at times and also can do a reasonable falsetto. The last two are not as loud as my Baritone. I feel that my combination is nice as it fits in the mix and no problem in the mid range. I just lack a little upper frequency detail
and want just a bit more clarity. No problem with the low end and it doesn't sound muddy. I have had great results tracking with a compressor in the past
so I want a hardware comp. The combo I had before some years back was the FMR RNC & RNC with a SE tube mic and no plug-in has replicated such good resulta. I went with the SM7b as my room isn't treated. I think the RNLA might not be for me as the Pre-73 does add character/color although you can minimize that with the proper settings.
I don't mind spending the cash on FMR PCB-6a but I did like the RNC and it is so much cheaper, but in the end I want killer Vox tracks. I know how to use a mic while sing/recording. so that is no problem. From what I have shared above what are your thoughts and suggestions. Does thePBC-6a clean up or have too much character that might not flatter my vocals as I described them above?
Old 13th September 2012
  #2
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Silent Sound's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahuska ➑️
I just lack a little upper frequency detail
and want just a bit more clarity.
I don't think a compressor is going to fix this problem. It sounds to me like you'd benefit more from a good condenser mic.
Old 13th September 2012
  #3
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🎧 10 years
a compressor is not going to add detail to the high end. But before changing mics, are you using the SM7b with the presence boost engaged?
If you lack "air", you may try another mic or just boosting a high shelf, 10-12k.
Old 13th September 2012
  #4
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Hardtoe's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I have a Pre-73 (fully modded version - caps & trannies) with a SM7 and a PBC - it sounds REALLY good.

I often go to this chain (varying the mic) or my TC Rooster / Drawmer 1968 for lead vox.

Maybe you should step up to the mod - I haven't heard the original Pre-73, but apparently the mod makes a big improvement in detail in the top and bottom octaves.
Old 13th September 2012
  #5
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Thanks for the replies so far. I am not after or I should say don't expect a compressor
to add more detail and clarity. I want to use it mainly to tame the peaks before it hits my Audio interface's AD converters. The RNC worked for that purpose but some say it is rather vanilla and transparent(which isn't a bad thing)
I've just read quite a few threads and replies saying that the FMR PCB-6a it is great on Vocals and a other sources as well. I do want to buy a hardware comp, so am considering these two FMR offerings.Just how good is the PCB-6a and how does it compare with the RNC which I know are different animals
I do have Dynamic plugs in my DAW's, more comps/limiters, EQ Exciter/maximers etc. So I think I could use them w/o major surgery. Today here at Gearslutz out came the SMb7 haters. I do like that mic and a condenser would be problematic in my recording element. I have a friend with a Octavia Modded MXL and a better room he has treat to some extent. I am to do Acoustic Guitars there. So does the PCBa warrant spending the extra cash?
Old 13th September 2012
  #6
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Oh and I should add that I haven't tracked with the foam screen off, I'll give that a go
Old 13th September 2012
  #7
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no one "hated on" the SM7, I use one on basically every record I do. It's a nice mic but not the first thing I would grab if high frequency clarity is what I was after.

If all you are looking to do is tame peaks on the way in, get the RNC, or better yet, a DBX 160x, which is pretty full proof for tracking vocals, guitars, and a staple for punchy drums.
Old 13th September 2012
  #8
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🎧 10 years
RNC to tame peaks - PBC to squash them into cream - the PBC is a thickening tone machine a well as a comp - the RNC is pretty clean - I think it's a no brainer to get the PBC to me - it is near always a welcome tool in my pre73 chain.
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #9
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Sound ➑️
I don't think a compressor is going to fix this problem. It sounds to me like you'd benefit more from a good condenser mic.
I side with that.
Not to piss on the gap parade, but I never liked that pre,
especially when pushed and the SM7 needs quite some gain.
Change preamp, even (keeping the choice in the FMR dept.) an RNP
would sound much better.
Old 13th September 2012
  #10
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Silent Sound's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
It sounds like you want the RNC. It's a great comp, but honestly, I tend to use the compressors that come native with my DAW if I need clean and transparent. So if you want the cleanest, most transparent comp out there, you probably already have it. If you need a clean comp to compress on the way in, the RNC would be a great choice. Otherwise, I'd go with something else.
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #11
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Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahuska ➑️
Thanks for the replies so far. I am not after or I should say don't expect a compressor
to add more detail and clarity. I want to use it mainly to tame the peaks before it hits my Audio interface's AD converters. The RNC worked for that purpose but some say it is rather vanilla and transparent(which isn't a bad thing)
I've just read quite a few threads and replies saying that the FMR PCB-6a it is great on Vocals and a other sources as well. I do want to buy a hardware comp, so am considering these two FMR offerings.Just how good is the PCB-6a and how does it compare with the RNC which I know are different animals
I do have Dynamic plugs in my DAW's, more comps/limiters, EQ Exciter/maximers etc. So I think I could use them w/o major surgery. Today here at Gearslutz out came the SMb7 haters. I do like that mic and a condenser would be problematic in my recording element. I have a friend with a Octavia Modded MXL and a better room he has treat to some extent. I am to do Acoustic Guitars there. So does the PCBa warrant spending the extra cash?
I have the RNLA, RNC, and have used the PBC-6a many times before The PBC-6a is certainly another vibe altogether, from these two, but I'll say I use my RNC and RNLA, on pretty much every session, for something!! and they always come through for me as handy compressor/limiter tools that stay out of my way and sound great. I can't even count how many times I've used the RNC, with the RNP, and a SM7B! This is stuff that works!!!! Anyway;

The PBC-6a is a more purposeful character shaper, which can be really musical/smooth, and take the leading edge off the sound in a helpful manor. Kinda sheer the attack off, but not the depth. Its really a nice mellow sounding compressor, with a great gooier smoothing quality that can sound real nice. Kinda tames the highs and rounds things out for you. I also think it has a very pristine sounding audio path, as it sounds really clear to me.

The RNLA has a slightly "tougher" kind of action and snappier grab, compared to the RNC's really soft, "volume controlling" reduction quality. Its cleaner than the RNLA, and does not impart any apparent character, other than clean limiting, with a really soft sound. Its VERY awesome when you nail the time constants, if you JUST want to tame peaks, control the volume envelope to even things out.

peace
a/b
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #12
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe ➑️
RNC to tame peaks - PBC to squash them into cream - the PBC is a thickening tone machine a well as a comp - the RNC is pretty clean - I think it's a no brainer to get the PBC to me - it is near always a welcome tool in my pre73 chain.
Could you explain further your comment "PCP to squash them into cream"
Would this comp be somewhat muddy and take away clarity and detail?
I forgot to mention I will use a compressor on Bass as well.
Old 14th September 2012
  #13
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
for around $400 used you can pick up a Neumann TLM 102 that sounds great in good and bad environments and would pair well with your Pre73 never assume anything about products you don't have experience with
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #14
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retinal ➑️
I side with that.
Not to piss on the gap parade, but I never liked that pre,
especially when pushed and the SM7 needs quite some gain.
Change preamp, even (keeping the choice in the FMR dept.) an RNP
would sound much better.
This doesn't seem to be the case for me re: the Gap Pre-73. For less "Character" they suggest turning up the knob on the right(output) up quite a bit and the one on the left(mic/line)down to its lowest settings I tried setting the output way up and sometimes full on, then turn down the mic/line to it's lowest setting and had to turn down the output down quite a bit as
even though the SMb7 needs a lot of clean gain, I can surely get that with this Pre .However even with these settings for it to not clip in my DAW . I have to decrease the output knob setting .The more that is turn up left knob up you start hear more color. Just my experience
Old 14th September 2012
  #15
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Well I am going to do a test in a few days. One clip with just Piano and Vocals and absolutely no sweetening or plugs. Another clip with Harder rocking and loud vocals.
and again no plugs. Then I am going to use my plugs to see if I can get even better tracks with both of the above.
What is cool a friend nearby has a stock PRe-73 just like mine only he has one of the Octavia Modded MXL mic. He has the same Daw and he has his room somewhat treated with special kind of blankets.
We can then have a head to head comparison. His mic is a decent enough Condenser and one I could afford. Let's see how this goes.
Also I would like to know what you peeps think of reflection filters, are they worth it and help an untreated room. I guess I could do both blankets and reflection filter as well
Old 14th September 2012
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
The Pre 73 is far from a horrible preamp esp once you mod it, I wouldn't replace it I'd spend that additional money modding it
Old 14th September 2012
  #17
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
And I might add that tracking Bass Guitar is another source I am wanting to tame the peaks with and sound good. That is important as well
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahuska ➑️
Well I am going to do a test in a few days. One clip with just Piano and Vocals and absolutely no sweetening or plugs. Another clip with Harder rocking and loud vocals.
and again no plugs. Then I am going to use my plugs to see if I can get even better tracks with both of the above.
What is cool a friend nearby has a stock PRe-73 just like mine only he has one of the Octavia Modded MXL mic. He has the same Daw and he has his room somewhat treated with special kind of blankets.
We can then have a head to head comparison. His mic is a decent enough Condenser and one I could afford. Let's see how this goes.
Also I would like to know what you peeps think of reflection filters, are they worth it and help an untreated room. I guess I could do both blankets and reflection filter as well
The original SE Reflexion filter is fine but I'd be leary of some of the cost effective competitors products as they tend to color the sound and add reflection points.

I think if you search the DIY acoustic section you could probably get some great budget treatment ideas that will be more effective and won't break the bank

I usually drape a heavy blanket behind a vocalist in an untreated space sometimes hanging another in front of them behind the mic can work well.

I'd really urge you to check out a Neumann TLM 102 though you can find them used for around $400 and they sound great in untreated spaces. I tried the mic out with the Pre73 and was pretty much floored by it on a number of sources male vocals, acoustic guitar, piano, and drum overheads. I have honestly been GAS'ing for one ever since I used it.

If you want to stick with a dynamic and get some more detail perhaps try a Heil PR30 I usually prefer it to the SM7b anyway.
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahuska ➑️
And I might add that tracking Bass Guitar is another source I am wanting to tame the peaks with and sound good. That is important as well
what's wrong with the compression you have ITB? I just don't see the RNC style comps being much different than most plugs
Old 14th September 2012
  #20
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
for vocals, guitar, and bass tracking, I'd go with either a 160x or the FMR PBC-6a. The learning curve will be much steeper on the FMR, but past that it will be more flexible.
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #21
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by indie folk guy ➑️
The Pre 73 is far from a horrible preamp esp once you mod it, I wouldn't replace it I'd spend that additional money modding it
Zen Pro Audio's phone service is not available until next Monday due to shipping and employee vacations. I did shoot them an email and am waiting for a reply. The reason for contacting them is because I don't see anything about the mod options for the first generation Pre-73. Just then next DLX one.

I do want to stress that I do like the SM7b and sometimes I nail my vox and they get a little plug-in love once in awhile. A lot of it is proper mic technique
and performance. But will still do the shoot-out mentioned above. I just noticed from A CD I did back in 2004 when I had the FMR RNP/RNC combo. I used no plugs back them. My Vox really seem to jump out at you more so than the Comp plug-ins I have now which are low-end. I plan on Demoing the Cytomic's "Glue" very soon As I have just Downloaded but not installed yet in a few days I will see if that plug is the ticket as well.
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #22
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by indie folk guy ➑️
The original SE Reflexion filter is fine but I'd be leary of some of the cost effective competitors products as they tend to color the sound and add reflection points.

I think if you search the DIY acoustic section you could probably get some great budget treatment ideas that will be more effective and won't break the bank

I usually drape a heavy blanket behind a vocalist in an untreated space sometimes hanging another in front of them behind the mic can work well.

I'd really urge you to check out a Neumann TLM 102 though you can find them used for around $400 and they sound great in untreated spaces. I tried the mic out with the Pre73 and was pretty much floored by it on a number of sources male vocals, acoustic guitar, piano, and drum overheads. I have honestly been GAS'ing for one ever since I used it.

If you want to stick with a dynamic and get some more detail perhaps try a Heil PR30 I usually prefer it to the SM7b anyway.
Warren suggested the PR40 over the SM7b. I thought that the PR30 was touted as a great guitar cab mic, but here again he recommended something different for cabs the Electro-Voice N/D468.
I am getting killer Rock guitar tracks with the SM7b at least that what many have said. My Pal in Portland that has a real Recording studio does have a nice mic locker. He sold his TLM 102 and really loves his Octavia modded tube mic. Used it primarily on this Female Artist CD. She won 1'st place in the Independent Music awards for best concept album using the Octavia mod.
Different mics for different vocals she chose it over a Newman U87. Go figure
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #23
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by indie folk guy ➑️
what's wrong with the compression you have ITB? I just don't see the RNC style comps being much different than most plugs
I am not sure of the term ITB, does that mean plugs in my DAW? as all though my vocal/mic technique is decent sometimes I have peaks before my Audio interface and good software comps may be good at that I rather not have to do a lot of surgery. This problems is even worse with Bass guitar. Part of the problem is I am not the greatest Bassist as I play guitar as my main instrument.
I want to do the best going in and not have to do surgery just some mild tweaking and enhancements with my plug-ins.
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahuska ➑️
Warren suggested the PR40 over the SM7b. I thought that the PR30 was touted as a great guitar cab mic, but here again he recommended something different for cabs the Electro-Voice N/D468.
I am getting killer Rock guitar tracks with the SM7b at least that what many have said. My Pal in Portland that has a real Recording studio does have a nice mic locker. He sold his TLM 102 and really loves his Octavia modded tube mic. Used it primarily on this Female Artist CD. She won 1'st place in the Independent Music awards for best concept album using the Octavia mod.
Different mics for different vocals she chose it over a Newman U87. Go figure
Warren offers great advice I think the PR30 and PR40 are both fantastic mics. Personally I find that the PR30 tends to be a bit more versatile I can use it on brass, snares, toms, kicks, bass cabs, guitar cabs, most vocals, etc and get at least good results. I find the 40 works better for low frequency stuff like bass cabs and kick drums though it does work great imo for broadcast style voice/spoken word.

E/V makes some fantastic dynamic mics the 868, 767, and 468 are no exceptions for a variety of sources, I know Warren often suggests those to people and for good reason.

If you like what you are using keep using it.

As for what works best for your friend and for you, you need to look at your needs and your situations. If you have an untreated room you'll need a more forgiving mic.

Female and male vocals in general are very different beasts.

I still think it's worth your time to audition a TLM 102.

There are a lot of great "budget" mics that can work wonders. I'd encourage you to look into and try out as many options as you can. Really the best thing you can do is use your ears and do trial and error.

Yes ITB would be referring to plugs as opposed to hardware.
Old 14th September 2012
  #25
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turk sanchez's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahuska ➑️
Hi I use a SM7b and GAP Pre-73 for Vocals and cabs. This thread focuses on vocals. I have a Baritone Vocal singing voice that is loud and can venture in into the Tenor range at times and also can do a reasonable falsetto. The last two are not as loud as my Baritone. I feel that my combination is nice as it fits in the mix and no problem in the mid range. I just lack a little upper frequency detail
and want just a bit more clarity. No problem with the low end and it doesn't sound muddy. I have had great results tracking with a compressor in the past
so I want a hardware comp. The combo I had before some years back was the FMR RNC & RNC with a SE tube mic and no plug-in has replicated such good resulta. I went with the SM7b as my room isn't treated. I think the RNLA might not be for me as the Pre-73 does add character/color although you can minimize that with the proper settings.
I don't mind spending the cash on FMR PCB-6a but I did like the RNC and it is so much cheaper, but in the end I want killer Vox tracks. I know how to use a mic while sing/recording. so that is no problem. From what I have shared above what are your thoughts and suggestions. Does thePBC-6a clean up or have too much character that might not flatter my vocals as I described them above?
Hi Mahuska,

Not sure if this helps, but if you want to hear some vocals I tracked with an sm7 and pbc6a, here is a link for you.

It's my x-girlfriend singing ~ song #4, "An August Day" was tracked w/the sm7 into an Avedis ma5, pbc6a and an Apogee Duet.

If you want to compare, song #2 "take a chance" was an Audio Technica 4047 into the Avedis ma5 and a Drawmer 1968 compressor and Apogee Ensemble.

All the music on these 2 songs is me - guitar and some midi in Logic I programmed.

Hope this helps. You can hear the sound of the pbc6a as I crushed her vocals with it during tracking.

Struck Music | Listen for Free and Download
Old 15th September 2012 | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahuska ➑️
And I might add that tracking Bass Guitar is another source I am wanting to tame the peaks with and sound good. That is important as well
RNC is NOT a good compressor for bass. Do a search. It is well documented as being an achilles heel, exhibiting distorted compression artifacts. RNLA is a bit better for bass and my go-to for vocals with GAP or DAV BG1 pre. I don't use an SM7b so can't vouch for either in that chain. RNLA is more colored and may or may not be what you are looking for since the SM7b and GAP are already pretty colored.

Also, using an RNC or RNLA (both unbalanced) inline after the GAP will require using a 1/4" Un-balanced cable. Otherwise using them with balanced cables will result in 6 db less output.
Old 15th September 2012 | Show parent
  #27
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by turk sanchez ➑️
Hi Mahuska,

Not sure if this helps, but if you want to hear some vocals I tracked with an sm7 and pbc6a, here is a link for you.

It's my x-girlfriend singing ~ song #4, "An August Day" was tracked w/the sm7 into an Avedis ma5, pbc6a and an Apogee Duet.

If you want to compare, song #2 "take a chance" was an Audio Technica 4047 into the Avedis ma5 and a Drawmer 1968 compressor and Apogee Ensemble.

All the music on these 2 songs is me - guitar and some midi in Logic I programmed.

Hope this helps. You can hear the sound of the pbc6a as I crushed her vocals with it during tracking.

Struck Music | Listen for Free and Download
Hey thanks for taking the time for the reply and url's
Impressions. I think the SM7b kills the Audio Technica 4047. WHY:
It sits in the mix better, a more pleasing tonality, and surprisingly while smooth it doesn't lack the detail I was expecting.
I know many love Audio Technica LCD's but I have owned both the 4033 and the 4050. I ended up selling them and bought a SE tube mic(that one is discontinued I forget the model). A Bro of mine sold his 4050 after trying my Se and bought one himself.
Back to the songs. Really cool stuff going on, like the arrangement and the songs are happening. and she is a great Singer. I do want to note that IMHO the Vocals are back in the mix a tad more than I would like. The synths are a little too prominent. Also perhaps a little too wet with Reverb.
I know these comments of mine are subjective and it all comes down to ones personal preferences. You do write and record some pretty good stuff.
Old 15th September 2012 | Show parent
  #28
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mahuska's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John N ➑️
RNC is NOT a good compressor for bass. Do a search. It is well documented as being an achilles heel, exhibiting distorted compression artifacts. RNLA is a bit better for bass and my go-to for vocals with GAP or DAV BG1 pre. I don't use an SM7b so can't vouch for either in that chain. RNLA is more colored and may or may not be what you are looking for since the SM7b and GAP are already pretty colored.

Also, using an RNC or RNLA (both unbalanced) inline after the GAP will require using a 1/4" Un-balanced cable. Otherwise using them with balanced cables will result in 6 db less output.
Thanks for the reply. I am fully aware of the RNC's Achilles heel as far as the
Bass guitar is concerned. That is one reason I am having a hard time while contemplating. Between These FMR products. The reason I am looking at the FMR offering is they seem to be the best bang for the buck. After a thorough
research/Googling etc. I feel the RNLA is out of the running, so it come down to the RNC or the PBC-6a (which I am leaning more to). I thanks all that have reply and appreciate the suggestions and comments. Keep them coming.
Old 15th September 2012 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahuska ➑️
Thanks for the reply. I am fully aware of the RNC's Achilles heel as far as the
Bass guitar is concerned. That is one reason I am having a hard time while contemplating. Between These FMR products. The reason I am looking at the FMR offering is they seem to be the best bang for the buck. After a thorough
research/Googling etc. I feel the RNLA is out of the running, so it come down to the RNC or the PBC-6a (which I am leaning more to). I thanks all that have reply and appreciate the suggestions and comments. Keep them coming.
I have both the RNC and the RNLA and I had 2 PBC-6s
Now, personally I sold the PBCs because I have a decent
collection of hw compressors and those, while built very well
and with a very interesting sound to them, they were never
my first choice for anything.
The PBCs are very unique in the way they compress,
also the attack and rel behave slightly different from what
you'd expect. None of that is a "problem", just something
you need to be aware of if this is gonna be your only compressor.
They always compress the signal, they cannot be transparent,
but they are great for tracking vocals for example (if the color
matches).
The RNC and the RNLA are more versatile in my opinion
and faster to set.
The PBC have some nice "in depth" setting, sidechain filters,
dual mono possibility (if you have 2), and various linking options
but again, I wouldn't advice it as your first or only comp.
Old 15th September 2012
  #30
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TurboJets's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Maybe I'm missing something but the OP says he wants more clarity which leads to the pre IMHO. Someone mentioned earlier they use the 73 with an sm7 and it's a great combo, but the 73 has been modded. Seems to me, therein lies the key. It all kinda starts there really.
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