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Vocal mic recommendations: Hm-7U vs ADK Hamburg, etc..?
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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kidvybes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenchijin2 ➡️
It DOES have a spike in the upper mids
...when did 10-12k qualify as upper mids?...
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #32
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🎧 10 years
Sorry, "highs."

Better?

BTW, I added more comments to my last post if you'd care to quibble with more of my points.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Head
 
MichaelJoly's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidvybes ➡️
...sorry...don't hear "dark & murky" on that track...what I do hear is the edgy (and somewhat buzzy) top-end that is representative of the charted frequency response...

What comes to my mind is the sound of an Aphex Aural Exciter - an edginess that rides along with the program material.

I learned to listen for this sound by working on dbx companding noise reduction systems. There was always an upward expansion of tape hiss caused by out-of-band modulating program material - a low piano note modulating the expander upward and imposing the amplitude envelope of the low piano note on the higher band hiss for example.

In the V69 the effect is not exactly dynamic, but rather it is present at a level that sounds like maybe a consistent 20db below peak level.

re: "spike in the head", hyperbole and description of sound. I think one of the challenges facing us all is lack of reference. The spectral response of most recorded pop music has become very heavily skewed toward rising bass and treble. The "classic" or "vintage" tones so many recordists are chasing manifest as a spectral density that is weighted toward the midrange - bass amplitude down about 7 dB and treble amplitude down about 17 dB relative to the midrange centered at 1 kHz. Again, these figures roll off my tongue because they were the amplitude "level match" points in dbx multi-band expanders designed to be "at rest" when presented with "normal" program material with this statistical spectral density. Daniel Lanois has spoken about the allure of, and makes music with an 'old fashioned' spectral density.

Over the years (I started at dbx in 1980) I've found it amusing to run spectral density curves of pop music. "Normal" is now something that looks like +6 dB in the bass and +8 dB in the treble relative to 1kHz - a huge spectral density shift from 30+ years ago when Dave Blackmer conducted his original program material spectral studies.

So when I say a mic has a "spike in the head" response, I'm referencing my own experience in pro audio when there were widely agreed upon terms for "flat", and "bright". But with the decentralization of the recording industry and explosion of home-based engineering complete with a generation of inexpensive and excessively bright mics, we've largely lost these standards of reference.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJoly ➡️
What comes to my mind is the sound of an Aphex Aural Exciter - an edginess that rides along with the program material.
Now *that* I can relate to. There is a grainy edge to the mic that I never liked, but what I disliked more was the muddiness. That's why I rarely chose the mic vs. the Hamburg and partly why I sold it.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #35
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kidvybes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenchijin2 ➡️
BTW, I added more comments to my last post if you'd care to quibble with more of my points.
...quibbling is what you are doing...what I am doing is trying to advise any of the people reading this thread to be wary of a mic that has some undesireable characteristics (the V69M) and recommend a similarly priced mic that is sonically superior (the Kel HM-7u)...
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidvybes ➡️
...quibbling is what you are doing...what I am doing is trying to advise any of the people reading this thread to be wary of a mic that has some undesireable characteristics (the V69M) and recommend a similarly priced mic that is sonically superior (the Kel HM-7u)...
You're right. Now that they've heard the horrible "ice picks in the head" they will run from the V69. It's obvious. I'll stop quibbling with your level-headed and reasoned criticism of the mic.

How silly of me. Carry on with your warning.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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Heartfelt's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
hmmm...
should I now start a 20 post response to his opininon? nah


Quote:
Originally Posted by kidvybes ➡️
...quibbling is what you are doing...what I am doing is trying to advise any of the people reading this thread to be wary of a mic that has some undesireable characteristics (the V69M) and recommend a similarly priced mic that is sonically superior (the Kel HM-7u)...
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Guru
Listening to the Hamburg and MXL v69me, I don't even want to buy the V69me anymore. You're right, with raw samples, it sounds very muffled, while the hamburg has a much better midrange. the v69me has a slight spike in the 8k range. Am I hallucinating?
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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jaz49's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quibbling? I don't know, but I would imagine 999,999 out of 1,000,000 average folks off the street who buy CD's couldn't hear that treble spike if their life depended upon it. I doubt very much that it would make or break a song. Of course little things add up, but is this really so noticeable to some folks? I must be going a little deaf, cause I can't hear it. I admit that I didn't listen really carefully, but am I the only one who doesn't hear it?
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #40
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jaz49's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislago ➡️
Listening to the Hamburg and MXL v69me, I don't even want to buy the V69me anymore. You're right, with raw samples, it sounds very muffled, while the hamburg has a much better midrange. the v69me has a slight spike in the 8k range. Am I hallucinating?
I thought some of the samples I heard of the kel HM-7U sounded better than either one of those two clips.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaz49 ➡️
I thought some of the samples I heard of the kel HM-7U sounded better than either one of those two clips.
Yeah I know, but it also has to do with the singer :P

But you're right, the average listener can't hear this... Listen to Nickelback's first album (Rode NTK), Hinder's first album (Possibly a U87 or Shure sm7?Dunno), Jim Jones (Anything he raps on)(Sony c800g), all 3 are examples of overly Sibilant singers/rappers and still, Nickelback went more than platinum, Hinder has a smash hit (co-written by Chad Kroeger), and Jim Jones, well ok he's a one-hit wonder .
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #42
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jaz49's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislago ➡️
Yeah I know, but it also has to do with the singer :P

ha ha

But you're right, the average listener can't hear this...

Listening to what sells these days I sometimes think the average listener can't hear at all!
...
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #43
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaz49 ➡️
...
They don't hear, they listen to what people say is cool and hip. That's all. It's mostly about marketing for the mindless drones.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
The V69 sounds warm, muffled and murky in comparison to the Hamburg to my ears. No contest. I'd go with the Hamburg.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenchijin2 ➡️
Sample of male vocal, on hamburg mic unprocessed
www.junglenoisestudio.com/songs/denada/hamburg1.mp3

Exact same take on MXL V69, unprocessed
www.junglenoisestudio.com/songs/denada/v691.mp3

Maybe I'm deaf, but I don't hear a nasty spike in MY V69ME. I know there are others who say they hear it, but perhaps there is some variation in response between these mics?

On this vocalist, with this song, the Hamburg was a little too peaky for me.

Hope that helps somebody.
Well in these clips I do not hear the V69 as being an 'ice pick in the head' but I do hear what Michael is talking about as far as the highs being separate from the mids: the highs are present but vital midrange presentation is lacking making the lower mids seem murky especially on voice. Overall an edgy yet veiled sound. I would guess that's why you kept the Hamburg and sold the V69 - it just sounds less veiled and more present without being edgy.

Anyway the Hamburg sounds very nice and you putting those two raw clips up of the same take was great. There are a couple of sites that have mic comparison clips but I haven't found one yet that has the Hamburg and HM-7U with the the same voice let alone the same take.

Seems like most are recommending the Kel, but it sounds like I probably wouldn't go wrong with the Hamburg either.

Thanks all...
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #46
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🎧 10 years
Well, I'm glad those samples helped out.

That song is a cover of course. The final mix can be found here:
www.junglenoisestudio.com/songs/Demo/babycomeback.mp3

In the final mix the track with the V69 sat better, which is uncommon for me. I applied some EQ, and some compression as well as delays and reverb... it's quite processed but the raw track was good so it wasn't too hard. All the background vocals were done with the Hamburg, in any case.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #47
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jaz49's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If anyone is still interested in the v69M, I found an interesting thread when I was surfing around. MXL V6 Silicon Valve vs. MXL V69ME - Topic Powered by Eve For Enterprise A few knowledgeable folks seem to like it a lot, especially with a tube upgrade. That treble spike in the freq. graph scared me away because I'm a pretty sibilant singer....same with the V6.

It seems that, like with just about everything, taste in mics is very subjective. You get the same divergence of opinion about preamps, monitors, whatever...even women heh. Best to go by your own ears of course...unfortunately we don't all live near a big music shop. Samples like those posted here really help though. Many thanks for those.
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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kidvybes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaz49 ➡️
If anyone is still interested in the v69M, I found an interesting thread when I was surfing around. MXL V6 Silicon Valve vs. MXL V69ME - Topic Powered by Eve For Enterprise A few knowledgeable folks seem to like it a lot, especially with a tube upgrade. That treble spike in the freq. graph scared me away because I'm a pretty sibilant singer....same with the V6.
...keep in mind that the post you're referring to dates back to 2005...there have been some substantial improvements to low-end LDC mics in the past few years...even the newer MXL mics are much improved over the previous models (thus the newer improved V69XM)...IMHO, Kel offers some of the best low-cost options...

***compare the frequency graph for the newer V69XM to the older V69M...notice they greatly reduced the high-end boost exhibited in the previous version...
Attached Thumbnails
Vocal mic recommendations: Hm-7U vs ADK Hamburg, etc..?-polar-pattern.gif  
Old 28th March 2009 | Show parent
  #49
Gear Guru
It's because they added a transformer to the V69.
Old 1st June 2012 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track 7 ➡️
Bought the AT4047 off of ebay. $290. It fits the warmth and non-sibilant desires of the poster. I also use the V69M with Mullard Nos 12AT7 in it and it sounds nothing like what some people are describing here. The stock tube however, does.
did you have to switch any resistors upon dropping in the new tube?
Old 1st June 2012 | Show parent
  #51
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Silent Sound's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuildaFriend ➡️
did you have to switch any resistors upon dropping in the new tube?
Nope. These 12A_7 tubes are all interchangeable without having rewire any circuits.
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