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Joly Ultimate MXL 603 or new SDC's?
Old 3rd February 2009
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Joly Ultimate MXL 603 or new SDC's?

Hey all! First post here (although I've read many threads in this forum).

I'm looking to upgrade/get a new pair of SDCs. I currently have a pair of MXL 603s and I'm not particularly happy with their performance as overheads. To me the lack some low end body that I like to hear in overheads and are a bit harsh. Currently i don't have any outboard pre-amps (I have a MOTU 828mkii).


So I'm looking at few options:
a) give my current 603 pair the "Ultimate MXL 603 Mod" treatment from Michael Joly. Pair this with a ~$400 pre (used RNP?)
b) get a pair of beyerdynamic MC930s, stick with MOTU preamps
c) get a new pair of Joly modded Octava MK-012, stick with MOTU preamps
d) something else?

thoughts, comments, recommendations and suggestions all very much appreciated :D Thanks!
Old 3rd February 2009
  #2
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tINY's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years


Think hard about a pair of ATM-450.



-tINY

Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for considering OktavaMod.

re: ATM450 - This mic does have a unique side-address form factor for an SDC, but it is a back-electret design, not a true externally-polarized condenser. It has higher self noise than an MXL 603, Oktava MK-012 or other externally-polarized condenser SDC as a result. But if your application is OH exclusively, then the higher noise of an electret won't be as serious an issue, though the headroom is typically more restricted as well due to the reduced voltage swing in electrets.

Maybe its just me, but for OH I like a true externally-polarized mic with high headroom to accommodate cymbal peaks and a low noise floor for dramatic emphasis of those peaks.
Old 4th February 2009
  #4
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Marik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scathontiphat ➑️
Hey all! First post here (although I've read many threads in this forum).

I'm looking to upgrade/get a new pair of SDCs. I currently have a pair of MXL 603s and I'm not particularly happy with their performance as overheads. To me the lack some low end body that I like to hear in overheads and are a bit harsh.
I offer capsule modification, which includes complete back chamber re-machining to address this specific problem. This modification rounds up the top end and brings the bass back, and the difference is not subtle. I will post some clips.

Best, M
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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Corran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I've enjoyed 012's on drum OH duty more than 603's, neither modded. But since you own the 603 that mod would surely get you into very good territory, as would a pair of modded 012's, which at that point may be personal preference.

Maybe get the mods now and get the pair of 012's later, since they will be great utility mics anyway.

Hey Marik! Good to see you. Drop me a PM if you've got time to tell me how my mic is going heh.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly ➑️
Maybe its just me, but for OH I like a true externally-polarized mic with high headroom to accommodate cymbal peaks and a low noise floor for dramatic emphasis of those peaks.


This is true for dynamic, acoustic music. For pop and rock and roll, I haven't found it to be an issue. Truth be told, I've used the ATM450 live and for stereo room mics when recording drums to good effect.

The back-electret doesn't seem to be a problem when using my Earthworks mics for recording overheads.




-tINY

Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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Marik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY ➑️


The back-electret doesn't seem to be a problem when using my Earthworks mics for recording overheads.

Indeed, some of the finest mics ever made, like Earthworks or the whole range of DPAs happend to be back electrets.

Best, M
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY ➑️
...The back-electret doesn't seem to be a problem when using my Earthworks mics for recording overheads.
That would be true of Earthworks mics - they use custom designed and manufactured capsules that don't have the limitations found in stock Panasonic or Transsound electret capsules used in low-cost mics. In 1992 while working for Dave Blackmer (dbx Inc. and Earthworks founder) he and I hacked apart Panasonic electret capsules and found the internal FETs and acoustic properties of the stock capsules needed improvement. We then sketched out upgraded capsule and electronic designs for what eventually became the first Earthworks mics. I never joined Dave at Earthworks but remained at dbx / Kintek working on compressor / expander noise reduction products and loudspeakers for motion picture sound.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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A LaMere's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Michael can comment better than me...
but if the choice is between 603's and mc012's for drum overheads...

I'm picking the mc012's every single time...

The mod's don't completely change the voice of the mic, they just improve upon what is already there. The 603 is a cool mic on acoustic guitars in my opinion...
or percussion... but it isn't great on drum overheads due to it's brightness in my opinion.
It seems to be a 'faster' mic than the mc012 to me...

Whereas the pillowy and more dark sound of the Oktava's works for overheads a bit better.

Just my .02...

Don't have enough experience on the other mics to comment...
Though I have yet to hear a beyer mic that I didn't like the sound of...
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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🎧 15 years
Actually I've never heard a direct comparison of modified 603 and '012 mics on OH so I can't comment. But Texas-based drummer Alan Dossett has a lot of my modified mics and is doing OH tests, he'll send audio soon. Folks will be able to compare them being demo'd by a great drummer on a great kit.

re: 603 brightness relative to '012 - that is true with the stock mics. But the "Ultimate 603 mod" reduces brightness by means of a vent modification. Neumann used vent modification to make the KM-184 brighter than the KM-84 even though both mics use the same capsule. (see the "Acoustic features" paragraph). I do the reverse - enlarge the 603's body vent opening to reduce HF rise.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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tINY's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly ➑️
That would be true of Earthworks mics - they use custom designed and manufactured capsules that don't have the limitations found in stock Panasonic or Transsound electret capsules used in low-cost mics.

Well, I don't know the details of the Audio Technica lines, but I have to imagine someone there did a decent design for the ATM-450. It is not the standard SDC capsule that gets used in the Unipoint or 40 series, but it's no panasonic capsule either.

The ATM-450 does say Hencho en China on it, so I imagine it's a capsule made to AT specs somewhere....

I was thinking about getting an extra one to play around with - add multi-pattern circuitry and change the shape of the headshell a bit. But I have more projects than is healthy already.



-tINY

Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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pauloticks's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
+1 atm-450
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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Marik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by A LaMere ➑️
The mod's don't completely change the voice of the mic, they just improve upon what is already there. The 603 is a cool mic on acoustic guitars in my opinion...
or percussion... but it isn't great on drum overheads due to it's brightness in my opinion.
Actually, the mods CAN completely change the voice of the mic.
Here are a couple tracks of original MXL603 capsule and with my modification. Please note, both are on the same body, so you hear only capsule differences:

http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLStockCap.wav

http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLModdedCap.wav

Best, M
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 15 years
Very impressive!
Much more "air" and the low mid mud is completly gone and replaced with a more natural bass.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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kidvybes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
...I believe the KEL HM-1s share the same capsule design as the 603, but are much nicer sounding and get great respect here on GS as overheads...check 'em out here:

hm1
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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Michael_Joly's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
"Ultimate MXL 603 Mod" vs. Neumann KM 184 as OH

To the OPs question...

Just got some drum OH sound files back from Alan Dossett.

Separate takes, slightly different mic positioning in each take (he's a monster drummer, not an engineer). So just ignore the stereo separation difference and concentrate on the bass extension, mid range impact and cymbal purity. Alan says the "Ultimate MXL 603 mod" kicks major booty.

SOUND FILE: Neumann KM-184 drum OH pair
SOUND FILE: OktavaMod "Ultimate MXL 603 Mod"
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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Marik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Joly ➑️
To the OPs question...

Just got some drum OH sound files back from Alan Dossett.

Separate takes, slightly different mic positioning in each take (he's a monster drummer, not an engineer). So just ignore the stereo separation difference and concentrate on the bass extension, mid range impact and cymbal purity. Alan says the "Ultimate MXL 603 mod" kicks major booty.

SOUND FILE: Neumann KM-184 drum OH pair
SOUND FILE: OktavaMod "Ultimate MXL 603 Mod"
Well, to be honest, I'd much prefer "before and after" samples, rather than some cheesy comparisons to well known mics, which to me sound more like marketing plug-ins.
You see, when I hear samples of such different mics like UM57 on one hand, and U47FET KH edition on another against your modification, but in the end sounding surprisingly similar, it makes one wondering.

On the other hand, if you claim what kind of freaking difference the edge treatment your modification does, then it would be nice to actually hear this difference with ears, rather than talks, which everyone here awares you can do beautifully. So why would not you post that one?

Best, M
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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DamnYankee's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marik ➑️
Actually, the mods CAN completely change the voice of the mic.
Here are a couple tracks of original MXL603 capsule and with my modification. Please note, both are on the same body, so you hear only capsule differences:

http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLStockCap.wav

http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLModdedCap.wav

Best, M
Actually, I didn't hear the voice of mic changed. What I did hear is the mic is SIGNIFICANTLY cleaner/clearer and what's amazing is, you did it without actually changing the tonality of the mic. VERY impressive and well done, Sir!
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I 100% agree DamnYankee!

Caveat before I continue though: please Marik and Mr. Joly remember that I do admire what you're doing and feel it's some of the best modding being done, just that I believe that mic modders sometimes get so involved in what they do that they forget that their prospective customers might actually be looking for a different mic tone completely. the Neumann isn't IMHO the best mic for many applications, old version or new version, and if a 603 user doesn't like the 603 then he may simply not like the tone of that design of mic. The 603 IS a neumann knock off after all, but it's missing SO much of what the neumann could reproduce... well you guys all know what I mean I hope :-). After all is said and done it still resembles that type of mic tone though. If you want warm, the 603 ain't it (just an example here IMHO).

sorry if I sound like I'm lecturing - I will try not to, I'm just really wordy. I don't like to be misinterpreted on here so I've learned to explain things in many ways so I'm 100% clear and not flamed LoL

I've said that same thing on another forum about these excellent mods as well. I'm VERY impressed with the knowledge, work and sonic outcome of your mods Marik based on your clips alone, but as I've personally found - modding a mic without swapping the capsule for a different design will result in a much cleaner and improved version of the mic that still has fundamentally the same frequency response curve.

apex 460, mxl 603, etc, they can be improved, but they still sound like the same mic design just with fewer nasty artifacts. if you don't like your mic, sell it and get something you do like.

It isn't an insult to Marik's work, I'm blown away with it, but the two mics samples are obviously the same mic capsule fewer small irregularites in the output at different frequencies and from the sounds of it better phase consistency and less crap in the low end, more accuracy.

And to me the tone of the 603, before and after, is bright, a little bit thin, and with a very uneven frequency response curve that doesn't suit most of my recording needs.

All that being said, if you like the 603's frequency response curve but find it gritty and hard up high and uncomplementary in the bass then this mod really does improve it.

Would I mod them if I had them? nope. But I don't like the 603 curve at all. If you do, then the mod is a kewl improvement. It does add "air". it is better. the bass is much cleaner. sounds quieter in the bass but that's I expect because of less distorted crap and more true fundamental bass sound without artificially added harmonics as in the original design.

but if you want a different TONE to your recordings, please consider different mics (like the akg c535eb, my fav sdc for so many things, more complementary to more sources than modern neumanns to my ears, although there are some situations when the opposite is true of course).

Cheers,
Don
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
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🎧 10 years
Yesterday, I did an interesting test :

I get a 603 (I have 6 available at the moment and made the test with several) and my MC930s. I aligned the levels (the 930 has a so high output level !), and I made some noise with a plastic bag at 50cm from the mics. Hooow... Here you can see how the 603 is harsh comparing the real sound with what is coming from the mics.

My plastic bag produces a lot of harmonics around 5-7k . The 603 give more here, but it's not only more level, it's more distortion, far from the real sound. So I imagine what it could be in OH (I never used them as OH myself). The 930 just sound natural.

This week I take part in a Mozart orchestra recording. Comparing the violins thru the 603 and the 930 is night and day. And if you like to have some bottoms at a distance, the 930 are also for you.

The man who own the 603s will have some to sell

JMM
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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Marik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkelley ➑️

I've said that same thing on another forum about these excellent mods as well. I'm VERY impressed with the knowledge, work and sonic outcome of your mods Marik based on your clips alone, but as I've personally found - modding a mic without swapping the capsule for a different design will result in a much cleaner and improved version of the mic that still has fundamentally the same frequency response curve.
Dear Don,

Thank you very much for taking time to listen to the samples and respond. I really appreciate this kind of feedback, as it greatly helps to know what people expect of microphones and shows me ways to improve what I do.

The thing is... what I do with this capsule in fact, does turn it into a different capsule and the three chambered design I was developing for this capsule for over a year actually gives the flexibility of tuning the capsule hundreds different ways--from very rich ribbon-like sound with thick low end and rolled off top, through the middle honk type of sound, to ruler flat response, i.e. it is manipulate with any range of interest.

Maybe the posted above clips did not show this, as that was the custom tuned mic to the particular customer's instrument. The guitarist liked and wanted that top "shimmer", but just wanted to add some guitar body.

Here is another set of samples, which shows just a few different possibile ways of capsule tuning. The first sample is original, unmodified MXL603 with stock electronic circuit and parts, the other ones are with modified electronics and capsules:

http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLStockMic.wav
http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman...iedCapsule.wav
http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman...dCapsuleII.wav
http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman...CapsuleIII.wav

Best, Mark
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm ➑️
Yesterday, I did an interesting test :

I get a 603 (I have 6 available at the moment and made the test with several) and my MC930s. I aligned the levels (the 930 has a so high output level !), and I made some noise with a plastic bag at 50cm from the mics. Hooow... Here you can see how the 603 is harsh comparing the real sound with what is coming from the mics.

My plastic bag produces a lot of harmonics around 5-7k . The 603 give more here, but it's not only more level, it's more distortion, far from the real sound. So I imagine what it could be in OH (I never used them as OH myself). The 930 just sound natural.

This week I take part in a Mozart orchestra recording. Comparing the violins thru the 603 and the 930 is night and day. And if you like to have some bottoms at a distance, the 930 are also for you.

The man who own the 603s will have some to sell

JMM
Wait - a stereo pair with a street price 800 dollars more far outshined the lesser pair? Where's that "shocked" smiley now?
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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SANDS's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Get a good pair of pre's, you already have some mics that work, can't go wrong with a good preamp.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Hi Marik :-),

Thanks for the note. Very interesting changes. Without using them myself (your modded versions) in my collection to see how they really work I have only a limited bit of aural data from you to work with, so I can't definitively say that I'm right here, but here are my impressions:

- your new clips do showcase the differences a little more clearly
- I like version II best but version I (of the three modded samples) is nice too. I like II since it has more low end AND adds some presence to the tone that the 603 doesn't have (which is one of my big complaints about it in general). version I is very smooth but slightly too clean/scooped for me compared to version II. version III is forgettable to me (like the original).
- the differences are still subtle and it still has the same general high end frequency response curve that I'm used to hearing from the 603 family, but vastly improved, but now at least the rest of the mic's output is nearing the output level of the high end (db-wise) so I'm starting to hear the actual instrument coming through instead of all right hand noise.
- OVERALL I do like these samples better, they show greater improvements in the tone and I would say the flavour of the mic has changed (and improved) some.
- these are the biggest changes (and all of them are improvements) I've heard in a mic through modding without actually swapping the capsule for an entirely different design.

if I were to listen in a blind test shootout (like the questionable "listening sessions" website) I doubt I'd end up coming to the conclusion that sample II and the original unmodded 603 are the same mic. You've proven your point well :-)

Good work - and I am again (as always) impressed.

Just for what it's worth, I still feel that there are often more dramatically different changes between otherwise still useful and good mics (stock here just different mic brands/designs) and that may possibly be what the original poster is looking for (but who knows for sure right? it's subjective AND very hard to describe). This might be just what he wants. For example (cheap to cheap) apex 205/stock mxl 603/cad m179/stock apex 460. all very different sounds. Like them or not, they are much more varied than any of your mods change the fundamental tone of the 603. So maybe he's looking for even more dramatic changes than your mods can provide. That's just food for thought - not a criticism and I may well be wrong about what this guy is looking for of course.

What I would recommend that you post (just because it would be more helpful to me, personally, to hear something familiar) is to add a clip of something most people who own 603s might be familiar with, such as a v67 on the same acoustic guitar (yes I know it's a ldc with different tone completely, but it's in the same price range and same make so one possible good choice) or some other good cheap ldc (m177/179, sp b1, se 2200, what have you) and maybe one other mic that is quite different sounding (my long standing 3rd love (after my wife and my amati violin LoL) the akg c535eb), an apex 205 (warm bass heavy but very good sounding ribbon). just kidding about it being my 3rd love, but I do go on about it... haha

Anyway, great work. If I wanted a good tone from a 603 I would so far have to lean to however you miced up that II example. is the micing/eq different between sample I/II/III or is that mic modding differences (basically 3 different 603 modded mics) of yours?

Cheers and congrats - you've done excellent work and I wouldn't mind those in my studio. I wouldn't buy them, but that's because I already get great sound from what I have. But if they appeared on my doorstep with a reasonable cod I might go for it (no, please don't do that to me LoL, I woulnd't actually pay for something COD :-)

I have never heard a chinese sdc that I have managed to use on acoustic guitar with good tone. That worked for me though, both I and II but II specially so. Very mix friendly I think.

Don

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marik ➑️
Dear Don,

Thank you very much for taking time to listen to the samples and respond. I really appreciate this kind of feedback, as it greatly helps to know what people expect of microphones and shows me ways to improve what I do.

The thing is... what I do with this capsule in fact, does turn it into a different capsule and the three chambered design I was developing for this capsule for over a year actually gives the flexibility of tuning the capsule hundreds different ways--from very rich ribbon-like sound with thick low end and rolled off top, through the middle honk type of sound, to ruler flat response, i.e. it is manipulate with any range of interest.

Maybe the posted above clips did not show this, as that was the custom tuned mic to the particular customer's instrument. The guitarist liked and wanted that top "shimmer", but just wanted to add some guitar body.

Here is another set of samples, which shows just a few different possibile ways of capsule tuning. The first sample is original, unmodified MXL603 with stock electronic circuit and parts, the other ones are with modified electronics and capsules:

http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLStockMic.wav
http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLmodifiedCapsule.wav
http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLmodifiedCapsuleII.wav
http://home.comcast.net/~markfuksman/MXLmodifiedCapsuleIII.wav

Best, Mark
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY ➑️


Think hard about a pair of ATM-450.



-tINY


+1 ATM450'S on overheads thumbsup love em
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #26
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SANDS ➑️
Get a good pair of pre's, you already have some mics that work, can't go wrong with a good preamp.
Not that Sands is wrong, but I'm pretty certain that you will hear bigger differences from changes in mics than from better preamps. if money is no object (like you have $1000 to kill) then he's right, but I think money does matter. get some GOOD sounding sdcs.

I believe I'm correct here, but if I'm wrong then so be it (but as an engineer with decent circuit design experience I'm fairly confident that I'm on the right track here... but you're welcome to ask around):
imho a good pair of pres won't change much with condensor mics unless the mics are at a very low or very high output level (super quiet recording or very loud) where the s/n ratio (quiet) or the overdrive characteristics (loud) of the pre will affect things. a db or two of change in frequency response in the preamp (which many different pres exhibit, trakmaster pro vs. mpa gold vs. api vs. chandler for example sound different but not by much) will not make anywhere near as much difference as a new pair of mics (ok.... or a well modded very different sounding mod on mics).

Great preamps are great to have. cheap preamps basically all do the same thing - they make stuff louder, maybe with a subtle difference in tone between designs and certain other options (phase reversal, impedence controls, rolloffs etc). With dynamic or ribbon mics you get much stronger differences in how a preamp affects the load and tone.

with SDC mics you should change them or get them modded so much that they don't sound like that harsh thin crap any more (been a long day LoL). no preamp can fix that...

cheers
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #27
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track 7 ➑️
+1 ATM450'S on overheads thumbsup love em
+2, also very good mics. don't let anyone tell you that electret mics suck (or whatever the design of the 450 is, I know it's something like that). Those are very good mics compared to stock 603s
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #28
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkelley ➑️
Not that Sands is wrong, but I'm pretty certain that you will hear bigger differences from changes in mics than from better preamps. if money is no object (like you have $1000 to kill) then he's right, but I think money does matter. get some GOOD sounding sdcs.

I believe I'm correct here, but if I'm wrong then so be it (but as an engineer with decent circuit design experience I'm fairly confident that I'm on the right track here... but you're welcome to ask around):
imho a good pair of pres won't change much with condensor mics unless the mics are at a very low or very high output level (super quiet recording or very loud) where the s/n ratio (quiet) or the overdrive characteristics (loud) of the pre will affect things. a db or two of change in frequency response in the preamp (which many different pres exhibit, trakmaster pro vs. mpa gold vs. api vs. chandler for example sound different but not by much) will not make anywhere near as much difference as a new pair of mics (ok.... or a well modded very different sounding mod on mics).

Great preamps are great to have. cheap preamps basically all do the same thing - they make stuff louder, maybe with a subtle difference in tone between designs and certain other options (phase reversal, impedence controls, rolloffs etc). With dynamic or ribbon mics you get much stronger differences in how a preamp affects the load and tone.

with SDC mics you should change them or get them modded so much that they don't sound like that harsh thin crap any more (been a long day LoL). no preamp can fix that...

cheers
Yes it's very hard to say for certain. A good pre really does it's magic with a good a/d. Same for mixing and listening back with a good d/a. My intention here was that he stated he did not have any pre's, so I figured he was probably building a system with baby steps as most of us are. Since he already has mics that work, a good pre can never hurt. Good mics as any hardware including a pre are all in the same boat really, they are always good to have and they never outdate like the software side of things. You gotta have a good performance along with good mics, pre's, converters, speakers etc... I neglected to think though that he does have a pre, actually two of them on that motu unit, and even if they aren't the best they work. But I agree a good mic is second in the path, pre beging third, and having a good mic first will show noticable differences compared to a shrill mic with a good pre, that would only make things worse.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #29
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
cool Sands, cool.

good to meet ya btw :-)

Cheers,
Don
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Question perhaps off topic?

how do you remove the mic diaphragm from the 603/991 etc.
so you can work with the head assembly to mill it down to much like the ultimate 603 mod
πŸ“ Reply

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