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Importance of pitch recognition skills in AE?
Old 8th February 2003
  #31
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
arent horn sections tuned different to 440 hz ???

i never met somebody who had " perfect pitch " , i met some who told they have but testing em with chords showed they didnt have perfect pitch . i saw a chinese kid once on tv , a guy was hitting 10 tones on the piano , the chinese boy simply pressed the same notes ... thats PERFECT and close to unbelievable .


most times my brain gets confused with short intervals ( is that the way you call it , too ??? ) .
i guess you cant train perfect pitch . probably you can but you need to start real early .

Old 11th February 2003
  #32
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
I belive differently, i think that you CAN develop your awereness of pitch, i did buy David L.Burge course when i was younger, i have always had a good sence of pitch but after i trained it by the way he recommended i noticed a huge difference in the way i was able to tell what note that was played.
And i also noticed that that since the ear can be trained like say a muscle, you will have to keep up training and listen in that kind of way not to loose the ability.

Its kind of like when you started out mixing and listen to frequency, you got better at that after a while, you could focus your ear to listen very narrow to an area near 6 K for example or anywhere else for that matter. That you have learned you ear in the same way you can develop your pitch recognition.

/M
Old 11th February 2003
  #33
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
of course you can train your ears mandill .

i just was saying , that you might not reach the level called
" PERFECT pitch " . you can train notes and their relations .

same thing with remembering sound as an image .
you may sit in another studio and think " wow , it sounds great "
checking it at home let you go " it SUCKS " .

it depends a lot on what you and your ears are used to .
Old 11th February 2003
  #34
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Just another thing, kind off topic but i heard this long ago from an respected swedish engineer.
That your ears dont have a memory, you can try this at your own studio, let someone else set the monitor volume and listen to it not seeing any faders, then walk out of the room and have that other guy turn down the volume, then walk back in and try to see if you can set the same volume that just you listened to for about 30 sec ago.
I bet you cant.

/M
Old 12th February 2003
  #35
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
No, but you could probably get it in the ballpark. It's pretty widely known that the typical audio memory is rather short.
Old 30th March 2006
  #36
Gear Head
 
the247s's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Importance of frequency!

Surely being conscious of frequency is absolutely core to being an audio engineer, rather than pitch.

Awareness of frequencies where they are, and what frequency ranges have what effect on which types of sounds is important.

There are all sorts of devices and techniques for establishing the frequency, but if you are recording music, I would have thought that pitch awareness and being able to tell whether something is in tune with something else is fairly crucial.

Say getting the drums in key with themselves and with the music say is nice and can lead to a better recording. Being able to hear that something is horribly out of tune, is certainly important for a producer and the artist. But also good for an AE who often does some production on the side.

Smiles
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #37
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moon_unit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Just curious about something. I don't understand the difference between perfect and relative pitch and all that.

All I know is that, if someone was to give me a random song, I could start singing it, and all the notes would be perfect and in the right key ... and I could do it just out of the blue, without any assistance or any instruments on hand.

If someone was to ask me to sing the first note in the first verse of the song "Layla" or "Dancing Days," I could do it no problem, and the note would be spot-on. Similarly, if I was in a room with someone, and they started to sing "Layla" a capella, and they were just a hair sharp or flat ... I would be able to identify that, also, and could correct them.

If someone was to tell me: "Sing me a C," I could figure it out pretty easy, because I know that "C" is just "dough" in "doug-ray-me." Or if someone was to tell me to sing an E or an A, I could do that, because I know that those are the first two strings on a Guitar, etc. Speaking of which, you could give me a guitar with no strings and I could string it and tune it without aid (no tuning forks or reference notes, etc.).

Does that mean I have perfect pitch or something like it?
.
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
I think it pretty much matters on what you primarily do. As a performing cellist, I get quite annoyed, if an engeneer does not recognize that I am out of tune, since I quickly doubt, that he/she has any "feeling" for the music I play. But I also know a professional concert master, who is undoubtely ignorant or whatever to the intonation that the bass group does sometimes...

You can work out your intonation. And I think, any recording engineer should be able to hear any intonation problems and let the musicians know. But one should always listen to it in the context of the whole music. We all know that a little out of tune sometimes makes things sound great or special; in case you know, imagine Cypress Hill being in tune when singing "I want to be high, so high..."

You don't need perfect pitch at all; having talked to several professional musicians and students, I suppose it is more often annoying than helpful. At our local conservatory, it has now become the new habit to tune pianos to a=445, because it makes the steinway highly significant sound better or some other whatever kind of crazy argument... however, in fact, it drives most students and teachers (especially woodwind player) crazy, since they are either completely lost form an intonation point of view of even, because their instruments can't handle this at all.

BTW.: most people having perfect pitch can not recognize the absolute frequency but do recognize the complex "sound" of a specific note. Therefore, like my cello teacher, who could tell me any pitch at the cello, folks get hopelessly fooled on the piano or any other instrument. Anyone playing any of the classical string instruments knows, that you can hear a note and know, where to find it on the instrument; that is also a form of perfect pitch I guess.

And to the orchestra tuning, most countries in the world tend to tune to 440; Germans usually tune at 443, historic ensembles even down to 415 sometimes...

To sum it up: any recording engineer seriously working in the field of classcial music will have to have a sense for intonation; speaking from a musicians point of view, I expect any engineer to recognize intonation in the context of the music being played and the overall performance of the take.
But above all, I expect the engineer also to help me to perform as good as I can, since this will matter in the long run most, and makes a lot of pitch discussion unnecessary.

Best

Leif
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_unit
Does that mean I have perfect pitch or something like it?
.

Since I am German, and our term is "absolutes Gehör" (absolutely hearing) I would guess, that being able to tune a guitar without any tuner to the correct pitch relative to your definition of an A (probably 440) what we would understand to be "absolutes Gehör"... and I suppose that the translation is perfect pitch.

So I think, you have. Enjoy heh

Best would be, if you have a for example a brass or wood wind section, they play any chord a little out of tune you can tell who is on an absolute scale out of tune and correct (really good conductors can, but I have only met two so far who really can...). That would be my definition of perfect pitch; knowing how many cents you are of to a theoretical ideal scale (12th root of 2 increment between a half tone) or to any reference scale ( like werckmeister)

best

leif
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by leifislive
I think it pretty much matters on what you primarily do. As a performing cellist, I get quite annoyed, if an engeneer does not recognize that I am out of tune, since I quickly doubt, that he/she has any "feeling" for the music I play. But I also know a professional concert master, who is undoubtely ignorant or whatever to the intonation that the bass group does sometimes...

You can work out your intonation. And I think, any recording engineer should be able to hear any intonation problems and let the musicians know. But one should always listen to it in the context of the whole music. We all know that a little out of tune sometimes makes things sound great or special; in case you know, imagine Cypress Hill being in tune when singing "I want to be high, so high..."

You don't need perfect pitch at all; having talked to several professional musicians and students, I suppose it is more often annoying than helpful. At our local conservatory, it has now become the new habit to tune pianos to a=445, because it makes the steinway highly significant sound better or some other whatever kind of crazy argument... however, in fact, it drives most students and teachers (especially woodwind player) crazy, since they are either completely lost form an intonation point of view of even, because their instruments can't handle this at all.

BTW.: most people having perfect pitch can not recognize the absolute frequency but do recognize the complex "sound" of a specific note. Therefore, like my cello teacher, who could tell me any pitch at the cello, folks get hopelessly fooled on the piano or any other instrument. Anyone playing any of the classical string instruments knows, that you can hear a note and know, where to find it on the instrument; that is also a form of perfect pitch I guess.

And to the orchestra tuning, most countries in the world tend to tune to 440; Germans usually tune at 443, historic ensembles even down to 415 sometimes...

To sum it up: any recording engineer seriously working in the field of classcial music will have to have a sense for intonation; speaking from a musicians point of view, I expect any engineer to recognize intonation in the context of the music being played and the overall performance of the take.
But above all, I expect the engineer also to help me to perform as good as I can, since this will matter in the long run most, and makes a lot of pitch discussion unnecessary.

Best

Leif

If you can do what you say you can, that is perfect pitch. Also if when other people perform/sing you can tell if they are "at pitch" without any external reference that is perfect pitch.

Relative pitch is that. Hearing two or more notes together and knowing if they are in tune/sharp/flat. Being able to hear if a note or chord is in tune "related" to another.

Regards

Roland
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #41
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Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
My apologies to lief for the above post, I included the wrong quote by accident.

Regards


Roland
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
no problemo that's makes life funny...
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #43
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PlugHead's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I also consider it an assett to have good pitch recognition (I'm another one with perfect pitch and - yeah - it can freak out clients ) - IMO, it only helps in being able to communicate with the muso's, and often lead to getting better voicings, altered chords, etc if the player can smell what you're cooking.

Also, it can speed things up when you can tell the bassist/guitarist "uh - you're D string is a bit flat - tune it up a bit, OK?" heh

BTW - where's Slipperman's text?
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #44
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moon_unit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland
If you can do what you say you can, that is perfect pitch.

Cool. Alright then, as an AE who has something akin to perfect pitch, I can speak from experience that it helps tremendously, but it is by no means crucial to the job at hand. Any time you can prevent a re-take of something, just by telling the bassist: "Your E string is flat," ... that's always a good thing.

Time is money in the studio, and if you can save the client from having to plug in to a tuner, or from re-taking something, because you were on your toes and alerted someone to a tuning issue in advance ... the client can appreciate it.

It's also good in the sense that it can really impress some clients. If someone tells you they need to fix an errant note ... and you, as the engineer, already have an idea where it is, and can just zoom in on it and pitch-bend it in a matter of seconds, and it's in tune, then you'll see a few jaws drop now and then. This can build a sense of trust with some clients, as they figure you must know what you're doing.

But in the overall scheme of things, none of this stuff is really crucial. The most important thing a recording engineer can do is select the right microphones and set them up at proper distances, and all that fun stuff related to sound quality and achieving the best possible audio fidelity. That's what's going to matter in the end.
.
Old 30th March 2006 | Show parent
  #45
Gear Guru
 
Musiclab's Avatar
I think having a strong sense of pitch and knowing music is a requirement these days. It certainly is to work in my place. Most of the tuning I do is not done with autotune or melodyne, its done manually by ear. I do it with Logic using the digital factory. I can usually tune a vocal in the time it takes to be in graphic mode in auto tune. Here I'm often required to program for my clients, so if I didn't know music it would be no go. Not to mention when I'm producing, how do you do that and not know anything?
Also I haven't seen the text either of any of Slipperman's posts
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