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Tuning the Room/System- The Right Way, The Wrong Way and Our Way
Old 19th January 2013 | Show parent
  #31
Gear Nut
 
elharley's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc ➡️
In my opinion it's the experience and knowledge of the person doing the tuning that's most important...The tools etc come second, because in the wrong hands they won't do much.
That says it all.
I know guys who simply dig themselves in a hole using all sorts of tools and technology. Just because you own a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

Back when KT DN360s in FOH racks were easily visibile I would often see guys hack away because thats what the analyzer said to do.

Many in our business spend more time looking than listening.
Old 21st January 2013 | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elharley ➡️
That says it all.
I know guys who simply dig themselves in a hole using all sorts of tools and technology. Just because you own a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

Back when KT DN360s in FOH racks were easily visibile I would often see guys hack away because thats what the analyzer said to do.

Many in our business spend more time looking than listening.
True, but I've also seen people spend hours trying to address a problem that they don't understand and don't recognize can't be corrected with the tools available. But my point was really simply that the tools, physical and intellectual, available will likely affect how one tunes a system. For example, whether you can add signal delay/all pass filter/etc., physically move devices or can't really do anything about them may affect how you approach any time/phase related issues.

RTAs, FFTs, dual channel analyzers, etc. can't tell you what you hear or if it sounds good but they can offer insights into why you hear what you do and what may or may not be the cause of anything undesired. A good example was a recent experience with a pair of speakers one of which everyone agreed did not sound right. Looking at the frequency responses the one that sounded bad did indeed show a couple of significant dips in the response and if that is all the information one had you might try to correct it with equalization. However, combining what we heard and the amplitude response with a phase trace made it pretty obvious that the polarity of one driver was inverted. It was hearing the problem that identified something was wrong and listening that later verified the problem had been corrected but it was the tools available that made it possible to effectively identify the underlying issue and how to correct it.
Old 21st January 2013 | Show parent
  #33
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by museAV ➡️
A good example was a recent experience with a pair of speakers one of which everyone agreed did not sound right. Looking at the frequency responses the one that sounded bad did indeed show a couple of significant dips in the response and if that is all the information one had you might try to correct it with equalization.
Unfortunately it is usually the first response of the amateur to fiddle with the EQ or other processing in every situations.

If there is a stereo signal or if there is the same signal going to both loudspeakers and the EQ is flat on both sides then it couldn't be an EQ problem...

Quote:
However, combining what we heard and the amplitude response with a phase trace made it pretty obvious that the polarity of one driver was inverted. It was hearing the problem that identified something was wrong and listening that later verified the problem had been corrected but it was the tools available that made it possible to effectively identify the underlying issue and how to correct it.
An experienced and knowledgeable engineer should be able to recognize and solve this problem without electronic aids. Just changing the polarity of a single loudspeaker shouldn't make it sound 'bad' per say.
Old 21st January 2013 | Show parent
  #34
S21
Lives for gear
 
S21's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc ➡️
An experienced and knowledgeable engineer should be able to recognize and solve this problem without electronic aids. Just changing the polarity of a single loudspeaker shouldn't make it sound 'bad' per say.
A polarity error on one driver would make things sound bad with a pair of two-ways. Say it was one of the LF drivers with the wrong polarity. As you got to the mid-point between the speakers you'ld hear an in-phase HF peak and at the same time a phase-cancelled LF dip. At that point in the middle it would be painfully trebbly.

Neither your ears nor a gadget are the complete answer. You need a willingness to listen (or look at the measurements) and understand what could be causing what you are experiencing.
Old 21st January 2013 | Show parent
  #35
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc ➡️
Unfortunately it is usually the first response of the amateur to fiddle with the EQ or other processing in every situations.

If there is a stereo signal or if there is the same signal going to both loudspeakers and the EQ is flat on both sides then it couldn't be an EQ problem...
I was actually referring to people trying to equalize out room modes, driver misalignment, combfiltering, boundary cancellation, etc., things you can't really fix with EQ. Understanding the relevance of time/phase in addition to amplitude and frequency is a huge step and open up a whole new world in understanding what is happening and why you may be hearing what you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc ➡️
An experienced and knowledgeable engineer should be able to recognize and solve this problem without electronic aids. Just changing the polarity of a single loudspeaker shouldn't make it sound 'bad' per say.
It was one driver in a three-way speaker that was out of polarity and the primary result was a big dip through crossover with an accompanying 180 degree phase wrap.
Old 21st January 2013 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
The above are classic examples of when FFT measurement (correctly depolyed), can help out.
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