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GLD 112 or Si Performer 2
Old 1 week ago
  #31
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse ➡️
I am trying to understand the conditional preferences driving the subject "new desk decision". If the desk does not need to be "user friendly" why is a 20 fader count so important. Perhaps the band would prefer the world class sonic quality of 21century 24/96K processing of a pair of DX168 expansion stage boxes and a SQ5 controller. the 16 faders of the SQ5 can be assigned to different different layers: and the layer access only requires pushing it's button on the fader section's left side. This ain't rocket science pinky: managing 32 channels with 16 active faders with grouping and/or DCA's is on the first page of todays digital desk workflow.

When I contemplate new or replacement gear I have learned, the hard way, the importance of putting aside the "nice if I can work it out" considerations and concentrating on the "Vital & Should Do" priorities. Perhaps it is time to take the training wheel priority of 20 faders off of your new single purpose desk and join todays advanced digital desk world.
Hugh
Hello Hugh

"Perhaps it is time to take the training wheel priority of 20 faders off of your new single purpose desk and join todays advanced digital desk world"
With respect Hugh, you are aiming that at the wrong person..let me explain:
I've been mixing at the highest level in virtually every scenario for 30 years Hugh - this is a very specific item for a particular band in a fly and play scenario.

Maybe I didn't explain myself. Ergonomics are very important to me. Believe me when I say I understand layers. The challenge in this process was to avoid at all costs 16 faders. IMHO 16 faders is a joke for any professional job, but anyway a personal preference line I will not cross.
When I said the desk does not need to be use friendly I meant it will not be being hired out to other engineers. It is only for me with this one band. So my "conditional preferences" as you say, are the ones that matter!
SQ range is a non starter for me as I explained. The GLD I have never used before as I've always been on Studers, Rivages and S6L's and I became intrigued by it. The band have a very limited budget. And 32Kg is the maximum weight with case that I'm working to.
I'm demoing it today so I'll report back later.
Thanks!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #32
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
one cannot argue with preferences...

[me thinks too that it isn't much of an issue (if any) to hide a few channels on another layer and i almost always opt for a smaller desk, unless i have to mix several dozens of channels]

...but the op's quest for suitable desk points to a problem that already existed in analog days and is now simply being perpetuated in the digital age:

with the exception of the waves lv1, digico sd11, calrec brio or lawo mc2-36 (and prototypes of the studer vista5 which were shortened to one section), there are simply no small desks with all the features we know from the big desks - at the latest when it comes to the requirement that they should also have an operating concept that would allow a large number of channels/busses to be addressed quickly, it becomes very, very difficult and the (rather prohibitive) costs of these systems are a further obstacle.

___


[i'm glad i found my bonsai dream rig: a studer compact remote, controlling a studer infinity core to which a d23m hub and a d21m stagebox are hooked up... - didn't i just mention the costs?!]
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #33
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
one cannot argue with preferences...

[me thinks too that it isn't much of an issue (if any) to hide a few channels on another layer and i almost always opt for a smaller desk, unless i have to mix several dozens of channels]

...but the op's quest for suitable desk points to a problem that already existed in analog days and is now simply being perpetuated in the digital age:

with the exception of the waves lv1, digico sd11, calrec brio or lawo mc2-36 (and prototypes of the studer vista5 which were shortened to one section), there are simply no small desks with all the features we know from the big desks - at the latest when it comes to the requirement that they should also have an operating concept that would allow a large number of channels/busses to be addressed quickly, it becomes very, very difficult and the (rather prohibitive) costs of these systems are a further obstacle.

___


[i'm glad i found my bonsai dream rig: a studer compact remote, controlling a studer infinity core to which a d23m hub and a d21m stagebox are hooked up... - didn't i just mention the costs?!]


The dLive CTi1500 is the industry standard for fly gigs here in Europe but my aim was to get this in on a budget and have more than 12 faders (the fader thing- it's deeply personal but fader flipping is my bette noire)

I am not one to always believe that latest equals greatest and in this case one generation back gives us the GLD-80.
It's great! It ticks a LOT of boxes. In my shoot out the Si Performer gained only on size and the gain reduction meters above every channel. The pots are in fact OK (not wobbly) but the selected channel area is indecipherable at a glance and the pots are so tall they hide the -very illegible- readouts.

The GLD-80 has so many plus points. I was worried it would not fit in a Peli case but have just figured it out..it will, just.

Here are the GLD-80 highlights:

Scribble Strips- big and full of useful info
Scene recall layouts
Variable HPF slope
2 x assignable knob functions on each channel on top of gain and pan
Has Songs and Set Lists i.e Scenes and Presets
Parallel Compression
More FX

All in all for a desk that can still be bought brand new here in the UK, it's the one I'm going with.

(for anyone reading this who is not concerned about having a multi-function knob on each channel, the SQ6 will obviously do all of the above and more)
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #34
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinki ➡️
The dLive CTi1500 is the industry standard for fly gigs here in Europe (...)
i cannot share this view but then, i guess it depends on where in europe you're touring, in what venues you're playing and in what circuit you're participating - in those places/situations/circles i get to work, yamaha and (to a lesser degree) digico rule as house desk...

that said, i just recently came across an old innovason and got immediately reminded of a feature which once drove me nuts: the solo/pfl can get stored with scences?!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #35
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
i cannot share this view but then, i guess it depends on where in europe you're touring, in what venues you're playing and in what circuit you're participating - in those places/situations/circles i get to work, yamaha and (to a lesser degree) digico rule as house desk...

that said, i just recently came across an old innovason and got immediately reminded of a feature which once drove me nuts: the solo/pfl can get stored with scences?!
Ah what I meant was a desk that goes in the hold of a plane, not a house desk.
Absolutely Digico and Yamaha and Profile are industry standard in that regards.
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
Nielsbeard's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I recently sold my Qu for a GLD 80 with a Dante card. I already had a AR2412 and added a AR84 and AB168. couldn't be happier. Workflow is a dream and I really like the preamps, EQ, dynamics and on-board effects.

For the channel compression, all the different choices are great but the DBX 160VU model is surprisingly good and you get a wet/dry mix knob on all the comps and the 8 FX slots too.

For less than $2k... its a no brainer
Old 1 week ago
  #37
Lives for gear
 
Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
sounds like you pretty much have an answer to which desk to go for
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #38
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsbeard ➡️
I recently sold my Qu for a GLD 80 with a Dante card. I already had a AR2412 and added a AR84 and AB168. couldn't be happier. Workflow is a dream and I really like the preamps, EQ, dynamics and on-board effects.

For the channel compression, all the different choices are great but the DBX 160VU model is surprisingly good and you get a wet/dry mix knob on all the comps and the 8 FX slots too.

For less than $2k... its a no brainer
Great to hear and top tip regarding the comp models.

I have to agree about the workflow- seems better than the more recent low end AH desks. But then the GLD is more of a precursor to the Avantis than an 'older' SQ or QU.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #39
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
The OP quantified the question to the subject pair of digital desks. I did sub divert the discussion to question the reasoning after he ruled out the SQ option supporting the GLD over a SQ5. It is abundantly clear to me the OP considers surface ergonomics more important, in this case, than the world class processing advances offered with the SQ's XCIV core code using FPGA chips. It is a question of tactile familiarity VS world class sonic quality.
I now and always have held A&H and their consoles in high regard, however the real question is whether or not the subject processing advances in the SQ offers substantial improvement in sonic quality and footprint limitations. If the OP plans to use the GLD inputs, 32 copper snake input lines + the requisite returns to the stage for SR stacks and monitoring will weigh a lot. This is why I always make a strong multi-reason argument for expansion stage boxes. ( I would love to sell a like new 24 channel whirlwind snake that I have not used in years )

The OP certainly has every right to buy what ever he wants to use for what ever reason: however, The fact that the GLD is yesterdays 24/48K big deal and it has been replaced by A&H in todays 24/96K processing order of preference. It is very important to me for the readers of these threads to comprehend the various concessions we make in our gear buying advice and the real investment exposure involved.
Hugh
Old 1 week ago
  #40
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Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
well, the gld has very limited local i/o so you have to run digital stageboxes with it. unless you're doing a show with 4 mic pres and a couple of stereo rca sources.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #41
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Thank you Sebastian for the INFO: I obviously am not familiar with the particulars of the GLD I/Os. Now that the necessity of 32 channels of stage box connectivity will be necessary for the OP to get where he needs to go the picture becomes much more clear. Other that the ergonomic familiarity of the GLD surface, the SQ5, IMO, in most every way is a superior controlling desk.
HUGH
Old 6 days ago
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
one option i haven't considered is that all these desks have remote control. either via midi or just an ipad. depending on what the op needs those few extra faders for, this might be a solution (and one that would open his options to other desks mentioned like sq or midas pro). i mean, if it's just some return levels or something that doesn't need a lot of tweaking during a performance but good to keep an eye on, than why not just have them on a remote.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #43
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
At the risk of redundancy lets consider the following: The SQ offers 16 faders X 4 layers for a total of 64 faders available for any function you assign from the patching page. ( For all input channels and outputs including LR, AUX, FX returns, Group & Matrix) All it requires is a a one button touch to select the desired bank of faders.
THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!
The remote possibilities with WIFI certainly play an important role in remote controlled minor adjustments. However, for several very important reasons, they are seldom if ever a suitable replacement for tactile controllers.
Hugh
Old 6 days ago
  #44
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Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
well, at this point the op wants what he wants. but it's a nice discussion to have. i wouldn't really rely on touch controls for everything. but one thing that would be interesting though is custom touch controls. often the apps are ok but i udnerstand that they have to cram a lot of stuff on a screen. but if you approach the touch control as a surface expander, using something like an app for custom fader/knobs would be cool for some of the important things you would want to control. vocal comp threshold, upper mid boost on a guitar channel or whatever. nowadays i think they are a lot easier to program. i remeber using the lemur controllers around 08 09 and it wasn't the most enjoyable thing to setup. but something like touch osc or the new lemur software would be something to look into. but this would make sense for setups that are dedicated to certain bands/artists. because such a granular approach would benefit very specific cases, rather than whatever act one would mix on a random gig
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #45
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian N ➡️
(...)a granular approach would benefit very specific cases, rather than whatever act one would mix on a random gig
not sure sub-atomic tweaking is ever needed (if it is recognizeable at all)?
i do quite regularly use a channel strip (and occasionally some additional toys) to have immediate access to all functions of the money channel at any time; works well regardless of the desk i'm using or the situation...
Old 6 days ago
  #46
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Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
i'll give you an example. one blues player i often worked with would use these 2 vintage amps. a blackface and a small marshall. his overall tone was really sweet sounding. however, there were certain tracks/passages where the combination of the bass player's driven tone, his tone tweaking during playing would require a slight push on the upper mid (hence my brief mentioning of this use case) to make the tone cut through a bit more. in a trio where the main focus is the guitar playing (and that's the reason 90% of the audience is there) it's noticeble. i'm not talking 0.5 db up down every 14th beat in every odd measure. or on a drummer that regularly switches between brushes and sticks or even hand drumming on the snare. again, certain moments might need push or specific tweak which might be easily achieved by having a custom fader or button to achieve this. usually the customisable buttons are not very specific on most desks but adress usual suspects.

your idea of a dedicated channel strip is of course great. but when one is lazy to carry extra equipment? i used to travel at club shows with distressors 10-12 years ago because in certain places (russia for example) you would get whatever was available locally. in siberia somewhere. so it was cheaper for us to travel with a few key pieces of kit.

otoh i've been ok so far without these kind of setups and it's not unlikely that i would spend the time and effort to go through this as maybe a pure exercise of customisability and not use it more than a couple of times because it's not worth the hassle. especially when the parameters would have to be tweaked in the app because they would have to be room specific (if it's eq) or other external factors influence the range of such controls.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #47
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian N ➡️
i'll give you an example. one blues player i often worked with would use these 2 vintage amps. a blackface and a small marshall. his overall tone was really sweet sounding. however, there were certain tracks/passages where the combination of the bass player's driven tone, his tone tweaking during playing would require a slight push on the upper mid (hence my brief mentioning of this use case) to make the tone cut through a bit more. in a trio where the main focus is the guitar playing (and that's the reason 90% of the audience is there) it's noticeble. i'm not talking 0.5 db up down every 14th beat in every odd measure. or on a drummer that regularly switches between brushes and sticks or even hand drumming on the snare. again, certain moments might need push or specific tweak which might be easily achieved by having a custom fader or button to achieve this. usually the customisable buttons are not very specific on most desks but adress usual suspects.

your idea of a dedicated channel strip is of course great. but when one is lazy to carry extra equipment? i used to travel at club shows with distressors 10-12 years ago because in certain places (russia for example) you would get whatever was available locally. in siberia somewhere. so it was cheaper for us to travel with a few key pieces of kit.

otoh i've been ok so far without these kind of setups and it's not unlikely that i would spend the time and effort to go through this as maybe a pure exercise of customisability and not use it more than a couple of times because it's not worth the hassle. especially when the parameters would have to be tweaked in the app because they would have to be room specific (if it's eq) or other external factors influence the range of such controls.
if i got you correctly, the new midas - if it ever gets fully developed?! - can do what you're looking for and regarding your example, i'd rather talk to the guitar player and ask him to try a different voicing before tweaking an eq...
Old 6 days ago
  #48
Lives for gear
 
Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
yeah, the new midas has some cool features for sure. whenever it gets out in the wild properly. would love to have a go on one.
i totally agree with you about balancing the source. but some dudes (especially guitar players) are very stubborn about their ways. but i did manage to get things better from changing out some of the pedals, fixing some phasing issues between the amp switching, adding voltage regulators to keep the amps working properly all the time and be less reliant on whether or not the venue has nice clean power and so on. but there's only so much to do before it "messes with the tone". and there's always that weird resonance that shows up on the random power chord in the 5th track of the set no matter how long you spent during soundcheck dialling things in
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #49
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
...which brings us back to our starting point: what equipment allows us to react quickly?

that depends on the manufacturer and the desk's user interface, which can be expanded with a tablet or channel strip to include exactly what the surface does not offer!
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #50
Gear Maniac
 
Nielsbeard's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinki ➡️
Great to hear and top tip regarding the comp models.

I have to agree about the workflow- seems better than the more recent low end AH desks. But then the GLD is more of a precursor to the Avantis than an 'older' SQ or QU.
Exactly right! The Sq is great but it’s not as good as GLD. Avantis is the GLD’s replacement. I’d love to get an Avantis but they cost a bit more than 2 grand… lol.
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #51
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsbeard ➡️
Exactly right! The Sq is great but it’s not as good as GLD. Avantis is the GLD’s replacement. I’d love to get an Avantis but they cost a bit more than 2 grand… lol.
Totally agree.

Avantis would be the one to go for, not any of the SQ's, which I find very limited in terms of workflow (for me, personal etc)

But the SQ does have an undeniable list of features to sway, such as the 32 track recording and the midi implementation...I will have to buy a Dante card for recording with GLD (though I'm also looking at Waves Soundgrid Studio as an alternative).

BTW the Soundcraft Si does not have Recall Safes (or Scope as I prefer to call it) per scene, so is really not a contender for prime time live work. Glad I auditioned it to find that out.
Old 5 days ago
  #52
Lives for gear
 
Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
tha avantis has just a little hands-on control over channel strips as the sq. you get 3 knobs plus the touch and turn. although you get the same channel pot control as on gld with 3 customs and usual suspects like gain and pan.
Old 5 days ago
  #53
Gear Head
 
The Avantis has a per channel touch-screen and a channel pot per channel. SQ has neither. GLD is in-between i.e pot but no per channel touchscreen.
Old 5 days ago
  #54
Lives for gear
 
Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
you do have a physical channel strip on the gld available as soon as you select a channel. tbh i think it's a wash between them. they are all as fast to work with. avantis is nice with having 2 independent screens for 2 ppl to operate or have separate info/access.
Old 5 days ago
  #55
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I am not a fan of the Si Performer for a number of reasons, most of which have already been discussed.

I do believe that the SQ is a MUCH better mixer than the GLD for a purchase today. No doubt that the GLD was a GREAT mixer in its time; however, its time is over.

I also believe that the focus on a gain control per channel is misplaced. Sure. Analog consoles were great that way as is the GLD; however, you still have to locate the source of the distortion via the VU meters, then adjust. It actually isn't that hard to grab the WRONG gain knob in this arrangement either. Good Lord knows I have done it a few times. On the other hand, the VU meter is directly next to the channel select button making it very unlikely that you grab the wrong gain knob. Reguardless, I think that there are MANY other features of a console that outweigh this one feature.

1) The GLD is OLD, unsupported, and soon to be impossible to get parts for.
2) The GLD does not have multi-track recording
3) The GLD does have an off-line editor; however, it wont be supported on new operating systems moving forward.
4) The GLD does have an app; however, it won't be supported on new tablet operating systems moving forward .... so no remote mixing unless you can keep an old tablet alive as well.

Hugh already covered the processing and sound quality improvements the SQ would provide, so I wont duplicate his efforts.

The one thing a used GLD has over a new SQ5 is apparently the price. You won't get an SQ5 for 2K.

Don't get me wrong, I really LIKED the GLD, but I think it is a bad buying decision in 2022.

Last edited by OneEng; 5 days ago at 04:45 PM..
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #56
Gear Maniac
 
Nielsbeard's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng ➡️
I am not a fan of the Si Performer for a number of reasons, most of which have already been discussed.

I do believe that the SQ is a MUCH better mixer than the GLD for a purchase today. No doubt that the GLD was a GREAT mixer in its time; however, its time is over.

I also believe that the focus on a gain control per channel is misplaced. Sure. Analog consoles were great that way as is the GLD; however, you still have to locate the source of the distortion via the VU meters, then adjust. It actually isn't that hard to grab the WRONG gain knob in this arrangement either. Good Lord knows I have done it a few times. On the other hand, the VU meter is directly next to the channel select button making it very unlikely that you grab the wrong gain knob. Reguardless, I think that there are MANY other features of a console that outweigh this one feature.

1) The GLD is OLD, unsupported, and soon to be impossible to get parts for.
2) The GLD does not have multi-track recording
3) The GLD does have an off-line editor; however, it wont be supported on new operating systems moving forward.
4) The GLD does have an app; however, it won't be supported on new tablet operating systems moving forward .... so no remote mixing unless you can keep an old tablet alive as well.

Hugh already covered the processing and sound quality improvements the SQ would provide, so I wont duplicate his efforts.

The one thing a used GLD has over a new SQ5 is apparently the price. You won't get an SQ5 for 2K.

Don't get me wrong, I really LIKED the GLD, but I think it is a bad buying decision in 2022.
True, GLD won’t do multi-track without a dante card
If you’ve ever owned the iPad app, you can get it on new devices
You might be right about the offline editor not being available for OS’s in the future, but prob will still be fine for some time, but most folks I know don’t use it anyway though.
As for parts, if they aren’t available, you could just buy another console and still come out less money than the SQ.

I disagree about the SQ being much better. There are some things that SQ is better at like patching for example, but there are other things the GLD is better at. All things considered they are really pretty close, except in price…
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #57
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng ➡️

I also believe that the focus on a gain control per channel is misplaced. Sure. Analog consoles were great that way as is the GLD; however, you still have to locate the source of the distortion via the VU meters, then adjust. It actually isn't that hard to grab the WRONG gain knob in this arrangement either. Good Lord knows I have done it a few times. On the other hand, the VU meter is directly next to the channel select button making it very unlikely that you grab the wrong gain knob. Regardless, I think that there are MANY other features of a console that outweigh this one feature.

1) The GLD is OLD, unsupported, and soon to be impossible to get parts for.
2) The GLD does not have multi-track recording
3) The GLD does have an off-line editor; however, it wont be supported on new operating systems moving forward.
4) The GLD does have an app; however, it won't be supported on new tablet operating systems moving forward .... so no remote mixing unless you can keep an old tablet alive as well.
Don't get me wrong, I really LIKED the GLD, but I think it is a bad buying decision in 2022.
Thanks One Eng for your strong arguments against a GLD!
I'm not sure I follow your discussion when you discuss the one knob per channel. Most higher end consoles have this so it's not a harking back to analogue days, rather a sine qua non of super fast mixing. The "selected channel" modus operandi is just slower. There are meters and a knob on every channel on the GLD or Avantis for a reason.. In 'extreme pressure' moments- and lets face it that's what we deal with- those knobs are a life saver. Anyhow we can agree to disagree on that but I'm glad you bought it up because if I let go of that, then yes, the SQ range is better!

Your arguments about how old and unsupported the GLD is...I'm not sure about this either. They are still for sale new here in the UK so I think they'll work for a few years yet!

Thanks
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinki ➡️
Thanks One Eng for your strong arguments against a GLD!
I'm not sure I follow your discussion when you discuss the one knob per channel. Most higher end consoles have this so it's not a harking back to analogue days, rather a sine qua non of super fast mixing. The "selected channel" modus operandi is just slower. There are meters and a knob on every channel on the GLD or Avantis for a reason.. In 'extreme pressure' moments- and lets face it that's what we deal with- those knobs are a life saver. Anyhow we can agree to disagree on that but I'm glad you bought it up because if I let go of that, then yes, the SQ range is better!

Your arguments about how old and unsupported the GLD is...I'm not sure about this either. They are still for sale new here in the UK so I think they'll work for a few years yet!

Thanks
Fair enough. I guess my argument on the gain knobs is more about how far they are from the channel fader and meter that is indicating it needs adjustment. If they are located pretty close to the meter (as they are so tactically set in the GLD), I see your point.

As for the age discussion, it was announced in early 2012 and the last update to the product line was the middle of 2013 with the GLD112. In 2015 a new firmware was released to update the platform. I can't seem to find any for sale here in the US. I am only seeing them for sale used.

Still, old as it is, at 2K, it is a very powerful mixer with some pretty awesome functional capabilities. I seriously doubt you will be disappointed with it
Old 4 days ago
  #59
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Sebastian N's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
gld does have better matrix/bus support and i find patching more intuitive than the grid style of the sq. but this is just personal preference.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #60
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
to those more familiar with earlier digital desks from a&h than me: wasn't the protocol ethersound? up to which model?


and regarding 'unsupported' gear: i'm operating about a dozen of digital desks long out of production and up to ca. 100 pieces of outboard, some of which are 'unsupported' for decades now, without issues - fact is that unless you're a major rental company or other high-profile client, you canot expect much support anyway, certainly not from companies that got sold and have effectively ceased to exist: if you're lucky, your country's distributor has bought some spare parts or you find a specialized gear gecko...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4 days ago at 11:28 AM..
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