what about make programmes dependant on downloading components (this only goes for actual daw programmes not plugins i concede)

the core programme is crackable (as it always is lets face it), so crack users either blunder on with most of the cool features missing or pony-up and get download updates to complete the programme features.

i dunno how else you can solve it otherwise, but think of it like printer manufacturers etc - the money is in the regularly purchased accessories (carts), not the actual core-product printer

i also think companies should look at monthly 'payment clubs' for users to bring illegal users into the fold which could tie in easily with the download programme components theme - it's probably about offering cool monthly things which makes it worthwhile joining - you pay a montly small fee which pays for the s/w over a year or so and you get cool free sample packs or whatever each month as well as access to download the full set of components to make the s/w 'full' - this would be not dis-similar to updating a free cut-down s/w version given away with a soundcard


so, subscription sales with bonus's basicaly.

I dont use cubase for example - it would be useful from time to time to have it, but my monthly expenditure specifies always more important purchases. However, if i could join a 'steinberg cubase club' for a monthly pitance via direct debit or other bank debit which i'd not notice, sure i'd join and always have up to date programme and extras if i chose to grab them.

after all lets face it, with companies like steinberg they are selling dongles and thats all right now.

also such a monthly-membership system could capture people early who may become loyal users for the long haul.

every other retailer of goods from kitchens to sofas to tv's etc employ such payment/club methods (or zero % finance) or stores employ store credit cards etc, so why not s/w makers?

to sell in todays climate you need such payment plans imo. everyone does it, thats the key. people want stuff now/today and we have to concede that people 'saving' for things is almost dead as a concept nowadays.

pro users get business loans so they have a route to finance (my company bought 8 grand's worth of music-tech gear for example a few months ago thru the ease of business banking & cashflow) but the problem is people outside of such systems.


i dunno, just thinking on my feet... there are so many porogrammes i'm sure users turn to now and again, but not enuff to encourage them to pay outright in a single lump sum



also is there any way a system could be used where plugins search for a licence key in the host DAW or they wont activate in the host? and that licence key part of the host sequencer is ONLY possible via a connected download which can be cross checked, NOT as a standalone install?


having said that NI's web activation is a nightmare if you find u have to re-install s/w after a h/d crash or whatever - so it doesnt want to be a really difficult update/activate system or that'll simply encourage users to go for the fake version.


and on the same tip, Sony Vegas is so easy to crack the legal demo download & it's probably widely used because of that - in that instance the casual user probaly uses just the absolute basics of the programme, so the download components' solution might work, in that users who try it and want to get more power join-up and download and see a small debit on their bank account monthly until it is paid off - in return they get all the extra components and a licence.


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also i beleive it's time the s/w industry started valueing independant local pc makers/repairers who cannot get any decent discounts to legaly retail s/w to end users when they build and maintain custom machines - typicaly an indie would find purchasing such s/w to sell on to the user would cost them more per unit at TRADE PRICE than the user could buy it for at a big web store RETAIL price - which ='s no incentive

so the typical custom builder supplies bespoke DAW machines but cant offer any good price on adding legal s/w - so the end user tends to either buy it elsewhere online or go illegal (or the builder supplies the s/w at a loss).

if builders could be used as a network to supply point of build OEM music s/w installs this could help (and establish a bona-fide network of local maintainance technicians)

perhaps it's time the music s/w industry established a database of reliable local builder/techs anyways? - the reason i say that is i believe such local pc builders account for the source of a good 50% of all DAW's in use
viously mentioed 'monthly payment club' existed, such local builders could sign people up to it for a commision etc. anything to encourage a network of legal users and support for said users.

the troube is now, local stores have evaporated and most people buy online distant from the retailer often by an actual country border. if legal s/w was tied in with some local support network this could be advantageous?


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lastly why cant websites which service s/w q&a's sell club-membership and actualy get something back for all the work they do supporting manufacturers products (for no pay or even recognition alot of the time.)

like if someone spends alot of time building and supporting a website which is a basic support site for the s/w title, why cant they participate in some web setup where they can get a commission for getting users signed up for a monthly 'ownership' scheme?


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sorry for rambling - just ideas based on observing this debacle for over 15 years non stop rather than an actual question



anyways, some sort of s/w manufacturers network is required i think, whatever form it takes. s/w nowadays doesnt need 'hard-copy' boxes and manuals etc and thus distribution costs are miniscule and a s/w users monthly payment club/system could work very well & be cost effective if all manufacturers/authors participated.

Hi
Lot's of info here !
I am not a coder, but it seems that a application that built upon itself would be a useful thing...and that new components with new features would not run inside a kracked "frame"

Michael

Apart from technological solutions to piracy which are valid and will always be on-going, we should also think about how to make people choose to buy out of self-interest. There is a basic self-interest of computer musicians that is served by purchasing.

I know of music software companies that have great ideas for products that may never see the light of day unless they can find a way to survive. Some software companies have been 'acquired' by larger companies for their core technologies. Sometimes dozens of projects on the table are shelved and never make it into the music software realm. This is a net-loss for everyone. If you think everything has been invented, fine. But if you want to benefit from the ideas in the heads of music software companies, we all win when you buy software. That's why we feel piracy education is so important.

Ray Williams
Music Marketing Inc.

Hi 7161 -

Some great ideas. All of this is actually quite possible. It could be done with software or dongle based solutions. In fact, one of our customers outside of this industry has done something similar with an online store. Rental, subscription and referrals are all things that can be achieved by building a solid license management platform. We support that now. With or without the dongle.

The online component is a great idea and some vendors are offering content (samples and instruments) in similar methods. Try before you buy. There is nothing from stopping them from taking this to the next level and adding the loyalty rewards and other benefits for long term paying customers. The issues arise when vendors have to support non-paying customers.

Our goal at PACE is to provide the tools that allow software publishers to easily create a system for license management that their customers (you) can leverage. We want to add more benefits for end users and give publishers visibility into how their products are being used.

I know I am not alone in that my music computers never go anywhere near the net.

thumbsup same here.

i just installed live 8 on my notebook and my studio daw.
very easy - just a serial and c&r.
seems to work - for both sites ...

a good thing would be to have the choice to use syncrosoft or ilok.
if i.e. softube.com would offer syncrosoft protection as well i would have bought
there stuff - but it's ilok only. so i won't.
since i allready have syncrosoft for cubase i will not get a second dongle ...

cheers!

+1000

It is beyond me why ANYONE would put their DAW on the NET and equally confusing and frustrating that vendors would assume we do or should.

This might be an interesting marketing scheme but I don't see how this is a solution to warez and/or piracy: Either the company has access to uncrackable software protection in which case they can use that for the core programme or they don't which means they can't protect the downloadable content any more than they can the core programme.

...

Manufacturers don't offer credit. Shops do. Just as in other industries, financing is available for audio equipment/software.

Physical shops often offer credit and so do some online shops. Sweetwater for instance accepts many payment methods including some that are financed. (Financing Options | Sweetwater.com)

In Europe things are more complicated. For instance a shop like Music Store Koln offers financing (Finanzierung) but only to German customers. (Just change the country setting and you lose the financing option). So it is back to your local store if there are no "audio supermarkets" in the country you live in.

I don't think it is either practical or advisable for software developers to start offering credit (neither individually nor as a group).

Alistair

Getting licenses delivered to your iLok (in order to run software) does not require the DAW to be connected to the Internet. You can simply unplug your iLok, got to the front office, home machine, friends machine etc... login and get the licenses you want from your iLok.com account. It is free to use iLok.com.

So, yes, it requires the network, but not for your DAW or the system you are trying to run the software on. I hope this clarifies.

That said, for some markets, the online method works great. Games, tools that are updated often with new content are just a few examples.

Can i just say anyone who doesnt put their DAWonline out of some false fear of infection is totaly nuts. i've had all mine online for the last 10 years with never a problem. all the connection does is update the AV and any OS updates, you dont have to ever run a browser or email program or anything, just connect, update, and thats that, and it's 100% safe.

i just think any key/dongle style protection is crackable and the only way to combat the issue is live updates direct from host company server, like apple updates work y'know?

i'd much prefer that to faffing around with crappy longwinded authorisation sketches such as with NI.

and lets face it, the majority of people ARE connected, and it's the majority we need to bring onboard as PAYING clients, not a handful of pro studios with isolated machines which never connect.



interestingly Ohmforce today sent a newsletter announcing they are doing 3 staged payments for their s/w


mebbe the music s/w association or whatever they are called can start a shared system where users register, agree to a monthly payment plan as a 'member' and this is debited monthly same as for your car roadside assistance or whatever

then you can use the 'credits' to 'buy' s/w from any vendor who has joined the scheme

your totals are added to your account and your payments just continue, funding the s/w companies monthly via a central 'membership-fees' distribution system

members can pick up s/w anytime they need it without worrying about having the full price there and then

i base this on the old british working-class survival system of buying from the catalog on montly payments

it works thats for sure. and the best thing about catalog clubs is, when the economy is depressed your business goes UP!

Would I be right in assuming you are a Mac user? I've been a loyal PC user forever, but it's reached a point where I have to admit i've been wrong and I need to switch. Microsoft products are hopelessy broken, as part of their marketing strategy, and the fear of infection is not "false" at all for PC users.

I'm at a point where I am returning big time to hardware, and trying to avoid software, because the hassles are outweighing the advantages. Unfortunately, I can never avoid software, but my experiences with PACE have been so offputting that I have paid thousands of dollars for software that I can't use, and this pisses me off. It tends to make me want to consider cracked software - something I just don't do, but being honest and paying for software has not worked out very well for me.

What I would love to see? I would love to see more hardware dsp boxes that I can just plug in (e.g. USB) and enjoy and use them without having to jump through hoops. Being able to endlessly update stuff doesn't appeal anymore - I don't have the time. Get it right first time or don't waste my time.

I could imagine a range of cheap USB boxes (dongle sized perhaps) that could be used like stompboxes - collect them all, buy them, sell them, hassle free ... why not?

Moving stuff between computers or projects would be so much easier. Sure - this won't please a lot of people - lack of future recall etc, etc. But dependence on multiple buggy, relentlessy revised softwares is certainly not future proof either. If you want to remix a project later on, save the raw audio files, and the processed audio files.

I would love to be able to buy DAWs, high-end synths, or sample libraries, or plugins etc as a small dongle-sized or iPOD-sized device. Complete with the processing power - so the software could not simply be pirated.

I won't ever put my home DAW on the net. And infections are only part of the reason. The fact you run Antivirus, Firewall, and 20 other unnecessary processes eating up your precious resources is reason in itself. Not to mention driver conflicts with said programs. Infections are just a symptom of the disease (or vice versa) I can think of 100 reasons not to have my DAW on the net... can't think of one good one to have it on. I have a seperate computer for surfing...

AwwDeOhh - what?

conflicts between a/v & hardware 'drivers' ?

20 programmes added to protect a pc??

a/v and a firewall is all u need - and that gives no problems AT ALL - and i can tell you 1000% after testing this across multiple machines over more than 10 years - that running A/V and firewall on a machine doesnt make the slightest difference to the ability of the daw
- not a single scrap



one thing to consider... if people bring you any media on any form of storage you can get a virus from that. So unless you NEVER work with anybody who wants to bring song files, audio files, samples etc to the studio via cd or usb device etc, then you stand just as much a chance of getting a virus as you would if your machine was online


how do you think mac users do it? admittedly there are few virus's for macs, but your paranoia is really unfounded mate.

really? not in my experience ...

then you must be running norton

actually my windows xp installation over the last two years has been more stable than my osx installation of the last 4 months.

regardless, any sort of requirements such as having to be online to authorize (i realize that youu can authorize your ilok from another computer and then use your ilok to authorize plugins on your daw) is absurd, i think the subscription idea could work some, but i'm not too sure about op's approach(tl;dr) in the official software only thread i mentioned having a subscription that got you discounts on different pieces of software for being part of the club.

exactly - people use that aweful norton crap then wonder why their pc is hijacked.