I feel your pain...and it's one of the MANY reasons I don't use Waves plugins anymore.

At megatrax we have 3 studios and 6 editing bays all using different plugins, each system with it's own ilok. For us the iLok is INVALUABLE. Being able to move plugins from one room to the next just buy unplugging and plugging the ilok is extremely useful.

Being able to rent plugins with the ilok is extremely useful.

being able to transfer the licenses between iloks is extremely useful

Being able to wipe out each computer (which we do once a year) and install everything from scratch and NOT have to reauthorize everything is AMAZING! Ever used Native Instruments? Talk about a PITA. If you wipe out your computer and forgot to "Unauthorize" their plugins it can take days of emails with tech support to get them authorized again.

As a producer and engineer, I also have my own ilok with my own software on it that I like. Being able to take that with me from studio to studio for tracking and mixing is invaluable.

There are so many Pros for the iLok, it seriously out-weighs the few minor cons. And personally I don't find registering on ilok.com, installing the ilok software and driver, and downloading the licenses to be such a huge pain in the butt... Maybe if I was using dial-up or something it would be. But with a cable modem it literally takes about 10 seconds for each download.

If they could make the iLok smaller, that would be great! And also more sturdy. I've had a couple crack/break. But luckily I was able to transfer the assests over to a new ilok before the broken one stopped working.

I also think their "zero-downtime" system is a pretty good idea for people that need to have access to their plugins at a moments notice, in the event one breaks. Since Ilok.com has a record of all the plugins on your ilok, they will give you temporary authorizations for eveything that you put on a brand new ilok. You send the broken ilok back and once they get it, they switch your temp auth's to permanent ones.

I'm a big fan of the ilok. I get annoyed when I have to do challenge/response because I know it's going to be a pain in the butt later. I wish all my plugins were ilok, or at least had that option available.

First of all, I feel your pain. When I was building my current rig and shopping for plugins, I wanted to demo some of the waves stuff. After the first few sets of hoops, I just got pissed and refused to deal with it. Waves makes it difficult for the end users, no doubt about it.

Having said that, I own probably 40-50 different Ilok'd plugins and not once have I had any issues.

1. request a licence
2. Install plugins
3. download license.
4. get to work.

Maybe twice in 2 years I've had to update the ilok driver, which was a simple and painless procedure.

I don't mean to be a dick but IMO, you are making this a much bigger deal than it needs to be. I've never spent more than 10 minutes at a time dealing with ilok. I just can't understand why your experience has been so painful other than the fact that you're dealing with Waves.

Have you tried other companies Ilok'd products? If so, was it difficult or time consuming?

Hi pianodano,

EW products use the iLok.com back end but do a direct delivery to the iLok via iLok.com account deposit. It does not go through any account. If you wish to synchronize all your licenses to iLok.com simply login to iLok.com and Synchronize your iLok. Then all of your licenses will show up on iLok.com.
If you have any problem you can email through forum direct contact.

Why ISN'T it set up like that? A lot of people (like myself) work between multiple workstations in multiple locations.

Oxymoron? I don't think anyone is saying to do away with protection - just don't make it a pain in the butt for paying customers. I mean, if we're subsidizing the pirates, shouldn't the SW companies at least try to make the experience more convenient for us? Where's the love?

As far as the idea of protection keeping prices down, I strongly disagree. For some, like myself, high prices and cumbersome protection methods are factors that would DETER me from buying a product.

So, SW companies make a profit by selling licenses, right? The more licenses they sell, the more profit they make. Doesn't it stand to reason that if they kept their prices low and used reasonable protection methods, they'd sell more licenses (earning larger profits)? They'd also reap the benefits of a larger user base, possibly higher profits from upgrades, increased word of mouth, etc. Seems like a net win for everyone, no?

Just look at how many folks have joined the Reaper movement. Doesn't that show you anything? Look at Apple ditching dongles for Logic and lowering the price. Do you think that's decreased their sales? Sounds like a smart move to me.

KenM,

Actually Waves could, like other vendors, install more of the required software within their own installer. However, in many cases this market has indicated that they want activation to be independent. That is not forcing the DAW to be connected to the Internet. iLok.com has a simple plugin and USB driver that you need to install so that it can communicate with the iLok. Multiple vendors can use the same iLok.com account to deposit. It is rather painless. That said, we are always working to make it easier. We realize there are some customers with 1 iLok and 1 vendors products and then some customers in the middle and also the power users. Thank you for your comments.

-Andrew

That's probably why Pro Tools which was never cracked became the industry leader . Flawed conclusions .
IMHO PT could become what they are because they were never cracked and had the funds to develop .

Do you really think that we wouldn't be using software had it not been cracked ?like UAD for ex .

Measuring the effect is impossible because not only would a company have to know how many illegitimate copies there are, but you would also have to know how many people who got cracks would have bought the original product.

This is not possible because there are
1.
many people who buy into the concept that tools make you a producer.
They learn that artist XY uses this or that programs so they think they just need those and will instantly be great producers themselves.
Only a small percentage of these people would have bought the original product.

2.
people who collect software. The cracked software is a trophy (the more exclusive the better) and will never be used.
None of these would have bought the original software.

3.
people who can`t afford the original software and are unwilling to use the light versions.
Without cracked versions available these would probably use inexpensive solutions like Fruity Loops, Magix Music Maker, Garage Band, Reaper instead of a light version.
I think this is the group that is most likely to pay something if cracks are unavailable.
As far as students are concerned, there are less expensive licenses available but (no surprise) the developers aren`t too vocal about this so many potential buyers don`t know about it and use cracks instead.

Maybe there are more reasons why an individual uses cracked software.

PT Free was cracked and Digidesign stopped developing and distributing it. (The crack removed the track limitation).

Anyway, there are many reasons why Digidesign gained the customers they gained. The main reason is probably that it was much cheaper than the alternatives of the day. Either way, I doubt it had much to do with copy protection.

No one is saying that. What choukette is saying is that many people chose the software they use not because of it's inherent merits but simply because they happened to have an illegal copy of that software when they started.

That was the case with me. Someone gave me a copy of Cakewalk Pro Audio 7. I had no idea about DAWs. I just played the guitar. After playing with CWPA for a couple of months I decided I liked it, bought it and I have been a loyal customer since. Had I received a copy of another DAW I might well be a loyal customer of that DAW instead.

Since then I have invested 40,000 Euro plus in audio software and hardware.

I know many people that started this way. (The vast majority). There is a whole group of potential customers that, for instance, Steinberg are missing out on with their tight copy protection (and lack of free demo).

Alistair

i certainly didn't put all the money i put on UAD without warez (that my story, i don't say warez are good) .

you're talking about the pro market and it's a different story,

i'm talking about the home studio market that exploded during 90's (that was the begining of low cost ITB mixing technology), using massively warez. warez created a market of studient non professional, that became juicy for software editor when those poor studient became people with income.

avid certainly make more money with PT LE today (with the home studio market and that's why they did it, because they knew those studient with warez would use legal software and want more professionnal tools) than with PT HD.

nowadays the main market for software editors is the home studio market, not the pro studio market, and IMO this market was created in a huge part by warez.

that's my point.

The effect of piracy is pretty well-documented by now with many-many examples of what happens when a crack appear on the market.

As an example I remember the consensus within the shareware authors association that sales dropped sharply 50-60% after a crack or keygen appeared. When a new uncracked version was introduced sales started to rise again - but very slowly.

Lowering the cost has no effect on piracy, look at iPhone-software that cost a few dollars and still there is piracy - I saw one developer report numbers and his sales were down 65% after the crack appeared.

So yes, piracy hurts the creators.

The effect of piracy is pretty well-documented by now with many-many examples of what happens when a crack appear on the market.

As an example I remember the consensus within the shareware authors association that sales dropped sharply 50-60% after a crack or keygen appeared. When a new uncracked version was introduced sales started to rise again - but very slowly.

Lowering the cost has no effect on piracy, look at iPhone-software that cost a few dollars and still there is piracy - I saw one developer report numbers and his sales were down 65% after the crack appeared.

So yes, piracy hurts the creators.

Lowering the prices may have an effect on piracy rates, but not as much as people would like to think it does.

There are users who will never buy their software, no matter how little it costs.

Then, there are those who will always buy, no matter how much it costs.

However, there are those who buy some of their software and use cracked versions for some other ones. Any fluctuation in sales depends on whether this group buys or not.

Paul

I don't think it's humanly possible. If you're going to use a device on multiple computers, then you have to have the drivers and software on multiple computers. I don't think there is anything they can do about it.


That was to the guy who literally said to lower prices and do away with protection. I know you didn't say that, but someone made a post saying just that. And this is how security works. It's a big inconvenience to have your belongings searched at the ariport, and to have to go through all these long screening processes that often take longer than the plane flights. But if we didn't we would have a lot more tragedies. It's just the nature of life. There is no having cake and eating it too. it would be nice if we lived in a world where people didn't steal. But they do. And it's the people who steal who are to blame here, not the people tring to protect their company and their customers. Just like the TSA at the airport isn't trying to ruin things for airline customers, they are protecting them.

I think most all companies will agree that it keeps prices down. The number of people who are deterred by the inconvenience is much less than the number of people who will steal if there is no protection.

No. It doesn't work that way. You have to take the cost of development and support and divide it amoung the userbase. There is no infinite number of users for a product, there is a finite market. And there is a set cost to make the product possible. Otherwise everyone would charge a penny for all software and make an infinite profit by your example.

An xbox game may cost $50, because they can sell it to millions of customers. But a DAW plugin may only be able to reach in the 10s of 1000s and could cost the same amount to produce. So the plugin is going to have to cost more than the xbox game to stay in business.

Reaper will not work on a large scale level. And Apple can ditch the dongle because they don't need a profit on the logic software, they make their profit on hardware. It allows them to sell more computers. Not many software companies have a hardware line to make up for software.

I don't know how man people remember about 7 years ago or so when the common copy protection was those floppy disks. And every plugin was easily cracked and everyone had easy access to every cracked plugin. And you could not go to any studio in LA that wasn't loaded with the cracked plugins. You couldn't rent a PT rig that didn't have all cracked plugins. It was literally putting the software companies out of business and in the economic eco system destroying the whole industry. The Ilok stopped that and helped protect the industry. Once that came out the piracy literally took a nose dive.

What made the piracy so rampant wasn't people being evil and diabolical, it was that stealing was just so utterly easy and the competition was so steep that it was almost impossible not to. If you didn't steal, the guy competing with you would and would have an advantage over you. But when the iLok came out, it put an end to that. And sure there are some hackers out there who can probably get around it, but they aren't the real threat. The real threat is when the ordinarily law abiding people have such easy access that they cannot fight the temptation.

I like you also wish it were easier and more convenient. And I feel your pain. But having gotten involved in software now, I blame the pirates. I can't fault companies for trying to jsut stay in business. And I have the same complaints towards challange-response companies as you do ilok ones. Just because we have different styles of working. Neither complaint is more or less valid than the other, they just fit different needs. iLok being better for those who move around a lot, challange-response better for those who stay put on a system.

And these usually buy the ones which they can't get a cracked version.

With all that has been said on this thread, it STILL stands that most legit software users ENDORSE some form of protection. However, there is a twofold hurdle for the developers to overcome:

1 - Allow a reasonable demo period for the software. 14 days is a joke. 30 days is a realistic period to a) get your head around the program and b) see if it fits your work flow. THIS period can have any kind of PITA, call home type protection the developers need to secure their investment. After all, it's free and TEMPORARY.

2 - Provide an smart, convenient, and hopefully compact source of protection that doesn't require the end user to do any type of technological backflips to work.

I mean, really.... I have a 16GB mem stick that is slightly larger than a door key. Programming PROFESSIONALS can't develop a solution with as much portability?

Peace,
PWG

True. And very unlikely to be bona-fide industry pro's.

Also true. Most industry professionals fall into this category.

But who is this group exactly, and how much do they really affect sales and why?

Why would some 17-year old college kid be buying some plug-ins and not others?

And why would a bona-fide studio or producer shell out for some expensive software and risk it all by installing a few cheap cracks? No one I know for sure.

I can't see how this group of people (and it seems an excessively broad and ill-defined group) is a sensible market to go after, and even if it was aren't these the folks that are most likely to be swayed by arcane and intrusive copy-protection? If you want to move more of these people into category 2 isn't the right way to do this to make purchasing and installing the software as trouble-free as possible? Otherwise you simply drive them in the other direction?

Hi James,

Although IMSTA faces software piracy from an educational angle and does not get involved in lawsuits, it does keep up with what is happening in the industry. Please do some research on all the professional studios sued for using cracked versions of Waves plug-ins.

So yes, this group does exist and they are well defined. Many professional studios (or all) buy their main DAW software. However there are those who do get tempted to use cracked plug-ins or virtual instruments here and there, and they do.

And there are even more semi-professionals who fall into this group.

Paul

I have known 100s. When faced with paying for something or getting it free, and there are no consequences, it's pretty easy to understand. What rick exactly are those bonofide studios taking by using illegal software? What are the chances of anyone finding out and being able to prove it? Sure Waves went to some studios disguised as potential clients to see if they had illegal software, but they aren't going to be able to do that with most individuals.

Have we seen any big producers or engineers arrested for using illegal software? I can assure you it's not for lack of having done it. Of course since iLok a lot of that changed. And it helped that it evened the playing field (honest people competing with those who have everything for free).

And there is more to it than 17 year olds and the top people in the business. There's the majority of the market who are in the middle.

To the man from PACE, I'm with KenM on this one.

As a regular consumer (little guy) on the scale of things that you guys are talking here's my take on things.

I bought a Korg Legacy Analogue Edition, software synth package with iLOK. I went through the agro of registration etc relatively painless. My beef is that it can only be used on the registered PC, same USB port. I could do with sharing it with my other PC but am barred! I consider I've been ripped off, if I pay for downloaded MP3' or other products I can use/play them where I like.

Will I buy another iLOK product? NOT in this millenium!

Yes, so they never buy iLok stuff because it's all cracked a few days/weeks after release.

I have to say that the Syncrosoft solution works for me, I really like the fact that my at least some of my hard earned cash is going to stuff that Jonny Crack***** isn't using for free. I wish everyone would move onto Syncrosoft, or Pace could get iLok to actually work. It'll be a great day when actual effective long/medium term copy protection is the norm.

I responded to a poster on the Kvr forum a few months back who was looking to build a new monster PC system and "money was no object". Part of the reason that money was no object was that it turned out he was using all cracked big name software, which I discovered in a later thread.

That actually pisses me off because software companies have a working solution staring them in the face in the form of the Syncrosoft dongle, yet they all fart around with stuff that doesn't work meaning that the good guys have studios with less hardware than the bad guys cause they spend more of their budget on software.

So as someone who has bought ever single piece of software I can only say that software protection is partly a non-issue any more - today in 2009 the only issue is who you get to protect your software and no-one can whine when their stuff gets cracked.

"Reaper will not work on a large scale level. And Apple can ditch the dongle because they don't need a profit on the logic software, they make their profit on hardware. It allows them to sell more computers. Not many software companies have a hardware line to make up for software. "

I'm not sure quite what you mean by Reaper won't work on a large scale?

Reaper works because it does what it's clients want it to do and when they have a problem the people at Cockos don;t, frankly lie through their teeth about it being " Someone wrong with your set up are you using a crack?"

I know of an increasing number of pros who are saying.. "I use my old Nuendo/Cubase for the building blocks and particularly midi authoring, but i render everything and use Reaper for mix downs." " If and when Reaper sort out the Midi side, i shall be going to over to Reaper alone and ditch my old software"..


Like me, they have no interest ,whatsoever, in buying Cubase/Nuendo 4-5-6-7-8 because they really don't do anything new that we feel have to have.

The fact is this. With reaper i can stick the programme and a couple of complete arrangements onto a pen drive, take it to another studio , boot it and I'm off and running. That ability alone, is beginning to make a huge inroad into the sales of other platforms.

As for Apple... Well, given the OS has been cracked to work on any windows machine, along with Logic 8 and a whole host of other Apple software and plug-ins... There is a whole new generation of people using dual boot systems with Windows and the Mac OS on the same PC...

But are these so-called people in the middle actually 'a market'?

(And let's recall that you maintain that 'the middle' is 'the majority', ie folks who run some legal and some cracked software.)

I maintain that these people you speak of are not in fact 'a market'. They have had the choice between buying your software and stealing it and have chosen the latter. This makes them thieves not clients. Can you explain how any sane business plan would include people in this category as 'a market'?

So this leaves us in the situation we are in today which is that the group of people who are actually 'the market' are blighted and hassled with dongles and iLoks and arcane installation nonsense all for what purpose exactly? As an imagined defence against a totally different group of people? Who profits from this?

You are going after the wrong group - indeed, as I'm sure you're aware, you are actually driving people out of the actual market group by attrition because there are a growing number of honest customers like myself who have vowed never again to purchase or use any music software that requires the use of a dongle or similarly invasive copy-protection.

do you have a quote on that? or is it just a standpoint that you have? would be interesting to know if that was the case.

i feel that the hd/icon segment of avid far outsell the le even le+m audio

i dont have a quote on that either though

m

I have to disagree here, I can think of two top producers here who do not own the majority of plugins on their computers.

[QUOTE=James Lehmann;4213218]But are these so-called people in the middle actually 'a market'?

(And let's recall that you maintain that 'the middle' is 'the majority', ie folks who run some legal and some cracked software.)

I maintain that these people you speak of are not in fact 'a market'. They have had the choice between buying your software and stealing it and have chosen the latter. QUOTE]
----------------------------------------------------------------

This group has the tendency to buy software and they do. Many of them know it is wrong to use cracked software. We know that in time they can be educated to purchase all their software.

This makes them a viable segment of the total market. Just as any other market segment, it needs its own marketing and education. To estimate the size of this segment, IMSTA conducts research such as the “Let’s Talk Piracy” survey conducted in 2008.

30% of the people who took the survey believe it is OK to occasionally use pirated music software.

They can morally justify stealing once in a while if they usually purchase. We had 3708 responses. That is a very good sample size. They only had to survey 1000 people to forecast that Obama was going to win the US presidential race.

Does this mean that this group represents 30% of the total market?

We will just have to wait for the 2009 results. I believe that once we conduct the survey for at least three years, we can start making inferences.

That is why education and research are very important to the future of the music software industry. IMSTA is the only organization that conducts such research and creates educational campaigns against software piracy.

Paul

I believe that a strong argument can be made that the real winner of the late 90's crack scene was Digidesign.

With Sooo many cracks of TDM plug-ins available for protools 5.x TDM they sold a huge number of MIX systems because of the availability of software/plug-ins for their platform.
That availability along with the fact that TDM was a superior platform to native systems (at least at the time because of limitations in CPU speeds).

The 3rd party developers and the cracks of those developments made ProTools very attractive. Attractive to the point that there was a time on ebay when a MIX farm would catch a higher price than an HD process card.... i wonder why...???

Digi survives and does well because they make hardware. No version of ProTools works with out a piece of their hardware. They are also very keen to dry up the used hardware market by allowing users to upgrade their systems (for a smaller fee than purchasing new) and turn in their old hardware to do so.

I also believe that the HD systems are where Digidesign both makes its name and most of its money. The fact that Pros use ProTools (HD) sells Protools (LE) to the masses. Once developed, and even considering the cost of manufacturing, the price /profit difference between HD and LE is huge. They also make more money on the HD systems becase there is a lot more to purchase (multiple interfaces, ICON control surfaces, Sync I/O, expansion chassis, more DSP cards, support contracts....etc, etc.)

" I'm not sure quite what you mean by Reaper won't work on a large scale?"

Because once you start getting into a large scale market you run into the same problem that all the bigger companies do. You then have a lot more expenses from having to have sales teams, support teams, marketing teams, service teams, legal teams, engineering teams, etc. And then you have far more people stealing. So your cost goes up and your theft goes up. And thus your product cost goes up and your profit margin goes down. So you then have to start thinking about ways to protect your investment.

Sure it's not a big deal when you just have one guy who is spending his own time and doing it for the love of it. But that model isn't possible on a large scale. Small market, small costs. Can you imagine waves being run as a one man operation? Wouldn't work. And being a large scale company/product is not always the best thing. Some products/companies can be more profitable on a small scale.

I see what you're saying, but the above statement has a fallacy to it, exchanging relative and absolute amounts to make the argument appear universally valid.

It should be clarified that (logically) it is entirely possible that while more people are stealing software, profit margin can rise, provided the number of buyers is also rising (which would seem likely). Rising production costs (for whatever reason) may or may not outweigh the additional sales.

I have no idea what any product's or company's specific reality looks like and I don't mean to counter the actual argument of your post, just writing to say that the quoted statement reads misleading. (I don't mean to imply that it is deliberate.)

Ehm, Korg Legacy uses Synchrosoft, NOT iLok.
Actually the earlier version did not use a dongle protection at all, and that was much better in my opinion (I can still use that version, since I've not upgraded my computer in the meantime).

krisdrum: Korg uses the Syncrosoft/Steinberg dongle, not iLok. Please contact them about their product.

We have many users of the iLok that like the portability and convenience. They like having an license management system that can leverage the internet without exposing their DAW to the Internet.

- I see someone else posted about Korg not using the iLok.