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What is High End
Old 6th June 2002
  #1
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
What is High End

What does High End stand for.

Is it because it costs mucho $$$$ ??
Or because it has been used on the latest Britney Spears ?? smokin
or because of the name ?? (SSL, Neve, Avalon, Manley, GML ...)


discuss .....
Old 6th June 2002
  #2
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think it's anything around 5K and up rollz

Seriously, I think the answer is a bit of all three. Larry Crane had a great thing in Tape Op a while ago. What is a world class high end studio? Is it a place with wood on all the floors? Good gear that costs a lot? Or is it all about the service?

People want the expensive stuff because it's supposed to be better then the cheap gear from Banjo Depot (aka Guitar Center) and the "pros" use it on the big budget albums you buy in the stores. Then they figure out the name brands and "high-end" is born. That's my 2am theory and I'm stickin' to it okk
Old 6th June 2002
  #3
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i think it just means uncompromised sonics where cost is no object.
Old 7th June 2002
  #4
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
i think it just means uncompromised sonics where cost is no object.
agree ...
Old 7th June 2002
  #5
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
of course cost is relative... like i consider my moogerfooger pedals "high end" and they top out at $600 and two are only $300... but for a "stomp box" that might be considered costly [until you hear what they actually sound like]
Old 7th June 2002
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well for most folks i think it comes down to soemthing that they lust afer because they cant afford it.. and for those that can afford these types of things, it is a comparitive measure against other bits of kit that may not stack up as well agianst teh partiucular hi end pieces of gear that are in question...

hmmm

I wonder if i could get a 72 channel horse shoe shape neve with 1073's made?... i think that would qunatify as high end?

OHH.....and what these and those wreteched glossy magazines tell us what we really need even though we cant afford it!!!!!sleep

PEACE
Wiggy
Old 9th June 2002
  #7
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's a studio where everything is so good that nobody has any excuse for not coming up with something great.
Old 10th June 2002
  #8
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think that's a great definition, Bob.

okk
Old 10th June 2002
  #9
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
It's a studio where everything is so good that nobody has any excuse for not coming up with something great.
so what IS their excuses these days?
Old 12th June 2002
  #10
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
The high end atmosphere is not suitable for all occaisions, take Glen Ballards home studio and Alanis Morisette.. Grainy ADAT sound or not that - ROCKED on the radio & in clubs..

I didn't feel 100% percent relaxed in some of the 'motherships I have worked in' and thats not because of the 'atmosphere / ambience' of the many places I worked in. It was the 'one shot' aspect of it. Don't get me wrong, with 15 years of freelancing behind me, completing projects in the aloted time was continual. It was at mixdown that I didn't much appreciate it. Especially if I was mixing something I had recorded myself... The "one shot" aspect of mixing SOMEONE ELSES recorded tracks always seemed far easyier..

Either way, for mixing, my own studio is fantastic for me, I can take as long as I want to finess a track the way I want to hear it as producer. I just need big studios for tracking from time to time. I would like to open a comercial "tracking only" room one day in the not too distant future..
Old 12th June 2002
  #11
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
The high end atmosphere is not suitable for all occaisions, take Glen Ballards home studio and Alanis Morisette.. Grainy ADAT sound or not that - ROCKED on the radio & in clubs..

I dunno - I've seen a couple of people use that record to justify a crappy recording, but I think that the record succeeded despite the crapy sound, not because of it.

The songs and the performances rocked, and that's what sold the record. I still can't listen to it all the way through (just like I can't listen to more than about two of the Chili Peppers songs of of Californication without taking a break)
Old 17th June 2002
  #12
Moderator
 
Tim Farrant's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
From a designers point of view, designing something hi-end means starting out from the desired end result and working towards achieving it. A hi-end piece of gear, as pointed out above, is where the sonics, performance, quality of construction and sometimes visual appearance take precedent over the price. The price is what it cost's by the time it is manufactured and sold.

Low end gear works the other way, it starts with a target price and works backwards, cramming in what qualities you can within the price structure.

Sometimes, a low end or cheap piece of gear can out perform a hi end equivalent, because the designer is talented, but alas, in our society today, we generally seem to only regard something expensive as being hi-end.

I know of a few pieces of so called hi-end gear that IMO do not justify their price tag !!

Cheers
Tim Farrant.
Buzz Audio
Old 17th June 2002
  #13
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by The Buzz
.... I know of a few pieces of so called hi-end gear that IMO do not justify their price tag !!

Cheers
Tim Farrant.
Buzz Audio

:eek: :eek: hate to be the one to ask .... grggt grggt
Old 19th June 2002
  #14
Moderator
 
Tim Farrant's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well I might have to chicken out here and not be too specific, but some gear relies on the brand name or "name" endorsees to sell it and what's inside might be no better than a cheaper equivalent or similiar product.

For example, if you look what's inside a Joe Meek Opto Compressor - it bears no resemblance to the original gear Joe Meek would have built - TL072 op amps were not invented in his time !! OK, they market it as "in the spirit of...." but really... are they not cashing in on a name ?

I know Joe Meek is not considered high end, but looking inside the box you realise you are paying alot for very little !!

Tim
Old 19th June 2002
  #15
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
But then I have to ask... what is something worth to you? Using Joe Meek as an example, I have a VC6 that I bought new (I think $400) 4 or 5 years ago. That's worth every penny of what I paid for it IMHO. Even though the parts might not be expensive what is someone's time and packaging worth?
Old 20th June 2002
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
stedel's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
High End? Hmm. In my opinion it's anything you buy - and if you're still using it in six months time and your friends and relatives are not embarrassed to see it in your studio - cool. That's High End!!!!

yuktyy

Does this gremlin remind anybody else of Surround Sound? If you listen closely you can hear me leaving just to your rear and to your left...

Kind regards
Old 21st June 2002
  #17
Moderator
 
Tim Farrant's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
But then I have to ask... what is something worth to you? Using Joe Meek as an example, I have a VC6 that I bought new (I think $400) 4 or 5 years ago. That's worth every penny of what I paid for it IMHO. Even though the parts might not be expensive what is someone's time and packaging worth?
Well there maybe do we have the answer to the original question "what is high end" ???
Old 25th June 2002
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
sdevino's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
i think it just means uncompromised sonics where cost is no object.
Interesting concept. But consider this: if you asked the designer of the piece if there were any cost trade-offs I bet the response would always be yes! (the marketing guy would say no).

Just as every mix engineer feels they could fix this or fix that if they just had a little more time, almost every design engineer has a similar list for any design they have ever worked on.

So what to you is a "high end" uncomprised piece, is just an unfinished design in process that the marketeers wanted shipped before the diesigner had time to finish it.

To me "high end" in a studio environment is something that makes more money than it costs. In a home environment "high end" is something you have that you are not aware your neighbors or friends have (yet).
Old 25th June 2002
  #19
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by sdevino

So what to you is a "high end" uncomprised piece, is just an unfinished design in process that the marketeers wanted shipped before the diesigner had time to finish it.
maybe GML gear.... i'd have to ask george though.
Old 27th June 2002
  #20
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm sure Cranesong is right up there as well.
Old 27th June 2002
  #21
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk


maybe GML gear.... i'd have to ask george though.

so ??? did you ask him yet ????
Old 27th June 2002
  #22
Craneslut
 
Brad Blackwood's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
I'm sure Cranesong is right up there as well.
Trust me, it is. Nothing is released until it's done. We've been working on an EQ and a mastering console for about 2 years now, and although the light is at the end of the tunnel, the units won't be done until they are done (if you look at last year's AES description of the CS booth, you'll see what I mean).
Old 27th June 2002
  #23
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i believe my cranesong flamingo is absolutely high end. it is of the creme de la creme of mic pres. absolutely state of the art. i think anything david hill does is 99% uncompromised, possibly 100%. i would buy anything of his hearing unheard.
Old 27th June 2002
  #24
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by C.Lambrechts



so ??? did you ask him yet ????
just sent an email his way... find out in a bit.

addendum:
emailed me back, pondering it and getting back to me but commented it was a very good question.


i might add to it being compromised... i think a design could be compromised by by its components, even the most solid designs and tightest specs, i would assume that even the best designed component most fitting to the design could invariably compromise the product in a manner that doesnt allow it to reach its full potential [does that make sense? as in the best available components are not good enough]
Old 27th June 2002
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
sdevino's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think the most common comprimise is time. As an engineer designs a product he or she invariably learns something. In the end they typically run out of time to do every possible test or analysis needed to determine whether or not the design is truly perfect.

Other comprimises are it has to be soldered and assembled by humans who cannot do this perfectly. It also depends on parts which cannot be made perfectly. It also is used in environments that cannot not be fully considered or compensated for 100% perfectly.

All these things are tradeoffs against time to market and cost.
Old 28th June 2002
  #26
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
well NOTHING can be truly perfect. but i think there is equipment out there that takes the time to get it as far as they possibly can without time being the factor which derails that goal.
Old 28th June 2002
  #27
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
well NOTHING can be truly perfect. but i think there is equipment out there that takes the time to get it as far as they possibly can without time being the factor which derails that goal.
agree
Old 28th June 2002
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
sdevino's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Until they think of something better so you have something new to buy!

As long as it is a commercial endeavor, time and money will effect final results. Bills need to be paid, kids have to eat etc..
Old 28th June 2002
  #29
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
that is true with most of whats out there... but i think that SOME products are made out of love rather than money. i wouldnt really call them products though. im sure companies like GML and Crane Song go a LOT further than most in making sure the unit exceeds most peoples expectations. that is high end.

i think GML has had the same line [aside from the new 2020] out for quite sometime. i think that different goals can also spawn different "products" from the same designer.

and you are referring to evolution within your arguement, but high end exists within the time period it is created. there are high end computers, but the high end computers from 10 years ago get their asses kicked from low end consumer models of today. but they were still high end at the time of their conception.
Old 28th June 2002
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
sdevino's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Even the Cranesongs and GMLs have compromises. The design may be finished in the mind of the designer but there is always some aspect of a commercial production which is some way a comprimise. An example is as simple as solder joints or batch consistancy of electrlytic in capacitors or active electronics performance vs heat and humidity.

In the case of a tube product what part of the aging curve do you design for? Tube performance changes vs time, how do you compensate for that? What happens when you replace the tubes?

These are extremely minor, but my point is that every design no matter how thorough has to stop when its "good enough" unless it is DIY in which case you can design till you die if you like, (another time tradeoff).

I know I am splitting hairs but there is always room for improvement, its just a matter of whether or not it is worth the effort.
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