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High end nearfield test
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4651
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel ➡️
lol. Totally illogical, but I like this rhetoric.
The only thing illogical is ruling out tools and methods to create better work. Room acoustics are tricky to deal with, as a lot of it is structurally born and not easily addressed. If you could achieve the results of a Trinnov with $5K worth of OC 703... you would probably be the most in-demand acoustician in the world.
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4652
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy2039 ➡️
How is it illogical? The main benefit of "$100,000 room" (btw it cost much more than that if it's designed by a professional) is the perfect translation. Read up on Trinnov user's experiences here on GS and 99% of them all say it dramatically improved the translation of their mixes.
I have never said Trinnov does not work. I would be rather surprised if it does not dramatically improve the mixes even when free solution could improve mixes drastically if you know what you're doing. You guys do not really understand what it can solve and what it can't solve, and that has been my point. Trinnov is an instant solution for some serious problems, not a final solution.
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4653
Gear Maniac
 
Bichop's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Well, before having Trinnov, I spent about 4 or 5000 €, not only rock wool, also a cloud and 10 bass traps, carpet, even so there were slopes in the measurement, improve that and leave it perfect in frequency response and in Phase costs a lot of money or designing the study from scratch, Trinnov corrects the response on frequency to leave it flat and also the phase, corrects the imperfection of a study where you can not spend 50000 € or more
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4654
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeswolfenstein ➡️
There's also the rational of: "I paid 5k for it, so it's going to sound like 5k."
Well, I've paid five G's for stuff that I didn't think was worth five G's in retrospect. The Trinnov sounds like 20 G's.
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4655
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bichop ➡️
Well, before having Trinnov, I spent about 4 or 5000 €, not only rock wool, also a cloud and 10 bass traps, carpet, even so there were slopes in the measurement, improve that and leave it perfect in frequency response and in Phase costs a lot of money or designing the study from scratch, Trinnov corrects the response on frequency to leave it flat and also the phase, corrects the imperfection of a study where you can not spend 50000 € or more
Yeah, but you installed 4cm rock wool or such... I honestly doubt you have done things correctly, but it's a good decision to treat the room first anyway. Even $100,000 treated big studio still uses house EQ.
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4656
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawk ➡️
That’s an incorrect assumption. Just the opposite.

Trinnov is only optimal when doing up to +6db boosts, and -10db cuts, so if the room is untreated or poorly treated and really out of whack, it's able to get it closer, but it still won't be fully accurate.
I think making your setup 16dB more accurate is more than just a tentative first step. Besides, there is nothing to say you're confined to these limits; that's just the default setting that Trinnov uses as a first-approximation to cater for a wide variety of situations.
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4657
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
Have you used it?
And.....Silence was the stern reply. He doesn't have to use it to know it's not the answer. He just knows.
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4658
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
How does room treatment cut out all the anomalies caused by having multiple reflecting surfaces between the monitor and the listener?
Old 28th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4659
Lives for gear
 
Shaggy2039's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel ➡️
I have never said Trinnov does not work. I would be rather surprised if it does not dramatically improve the mixes even when free solution could improve mixes drastically if you know what you're doing. You guys do not really understand what it can solve and what it can't solve, and that has been my point. Trinnov is an instant solution for some serious problems, not a final solution.
I know what I'm doing and I understand what needs to happen to solve room issues. This room I currently have is taken to the max with treatment. I've spent countless hours in here trying to get the optimal speaker position and getting measurements from REW to see what's working the best. I've spent double that time in installing over 25 GIK traps in every corner and surface I could fit them including building a custom cloud over the mix position. I converted my closet into a massive bass trap filled with pink fluffy. My room sounds and translates better after all of this and it's totally workable in it's current state.

The Trinnov is the icing on the cake for this room and I believe it could bring it much closer to that elusive "100% perfect" room. But again, I've never used it - I'm going off all the research I'm reading in this thread.
This is how I make my living - by composing music - so if the final $8K step to getting the acoustics right is worth every penny assuming it works as advertised.
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4660
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy2039 ➡️
I know what I'm doing and I understand what needs to happen to solve room issues. This room I currently have is taken to the max with treatment. I've spent countless hours in here trying to get the optimal speaker position and getting measurements from REW to see what's working the best. I've spent double that time in installing over 25 GIK traps in every corner and surface I could fit them including building a custom cloud over the mix position. I converted my closet into a massive bass trap filled with pink fluffy. My room sounds and translates better after all of this and it's totally workable in it's current state.

The Trinnov is the icing on the cake for this room and I believe it could bring it much closer to that elusive "100% perfect" room. But again, I've never used it - I'm going off all the research I'm reading in this thread.
This is how I make my living - by composing music - so if the final $8K step to getting the acoustics right is worth every penny assuming it works as advertised.
I'm curious what you currently concern, and why you think Trinnov could solve your issue.

BTW, do you have any diffusers? One wall of my room is 70% covered with diffusers, and it did improve things a lot (top and bottom of this wall is covered by traps). If you have not tried it, you may want to research about it. It could be costly, but it worth, imo.
Old 29th November 2021
  #4661
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
I’d like to know how Trinnov can make improvements by going +6 db. SBIR and issues with screwing with the headroom in low frequencies seems like it would mess with things. Is it able to determine a room mode issue vs SBIR?

Or is it one of those deals where it only attenuates below 300 but will boost and attenuate above 300 hz? I could study up on this myself but I like having the conversation about it to learn what users experience.
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4662
Lives for gear
 
Shaggy2039's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel ➡️
I'm curious what you currently concern, and why you think Trinnov could solve your issue.

BTW, do you have any diffusers? One wall of my room is 70% covered with diffusers, and it did improve things a lot (top and bottom of this wall is covered by traps). If you have not tried it, you may want to research about it. It could be costly, but it worth, imo.
Since I started scoring TV shows, I need the best mix I can possibly do in the fastest time possible because the deadlines are insanely fast. My mixes are pretty solid considering the time crunch but if the Trinnov can get me closer to that goal of speed / accuracy, then it's invaluable for my work flow. At this point, I just need to demo it soon and see how it goes -- who knows - maybe it's not for me, which is how I felt about Sonarworks and ARC2. But there's enough evidence from people I trust here that it does improve things to the degree that it helps with translation.

No diffusers at the moment but will look into that.
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4663
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy2039 ➡️
I know what I'm doing and I understand what needs to happen to solve room issues. This room I currently have is taken to the max with treatment. I've spent countless hours in here trying to get the optimal speaker position and getting measurements from REW to see what's working the best. I've spent double that time in installing over 25 GIK traps in every corner and surface I could fit them including building a custom cloud over the mix position. I converted my closet into a massive bass trap filled with pink fluffy. My room sounds and translates better after all of this and it's totally workable in it's current state.

The Trinnov is the icing on the cake for this room and I believe it could bring it much closer to that elusive "100% perfect" room. But again, I've never used it - I'm going off all the research I'm reading in this thread.
This is how I make my living - by composing music - so if the final $8K step to getting the acoustics right is worth every penny assuming it works as advertised.
1. Someone below your post suggested you to incorporate some diffuser(s) into your room treatment. If your REW measurements (or your ears) suggest you that diffusion would help, than I agree, do it.

2. Also, I've got sort of a similar closet on the back wall, in my case it's 60cm deep floor to ceiling. First I filled it with pink fluffy, than I tried it with rock wool with bigger air flow resistance (resulting in less high frequency but more low frequency absorption). In my room the rock wool improved the sound way more. Do some calculations, perhaps Rockwool rather than pink fluffy would help your room more. Also, I filled it in a way that I left some airgap between two layers. I don't remember the exact ideal thicknesses but I do remember that I calculated it with the multi layer absorber calculator of http://www.acousticmodelling.com/. And it worked, I got my best REW measurements after filling it with a Rockwool-Airgap-Rockwool sandwich instead of just rockwool.

3. No way I would ever suggest someone having an untreated room to invest in Trinnov before proper room treatment. But based on your comment, I would say you are the ideal "Trinnov customer". Someone who is not going to just put it in a "hangar" and expect magic. You have already done a lot to improve the room acoustics and you look at the Trinnov "as the icing on the cake". That's exactly what the Trinnov is for, your situation is precisely the situation where I would highly suggest to trial the Trinnov ST2. Also, have some REW measurements to compare the Trinnov results, to have an objective before-after data to help you decide whether it worth the investment or not.
+ You mentioned, you would get back the investment if it speeds up your workflow. In that case don't hesitate much, just go ahead and try it. I have heard the ST2 in a great studio room and the difference was obvious. No, it wasn't night and day but most home studios (even the reasonably well treated ones) have way more acoustic problems than where I heard the ST2. So even though it's not a magic wand, I'm 100% sure it will give you obvious improvements as far frequency response and transient clarity/phase coherence.
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4664
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Do not treat
The lake of modal support.
The mode deep
The sbir
The lbir
The flutter echo
The slap echo
The inhomogeneous decay


But but but !! what do this extraordinary trinnov costing a fortune?
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4665
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
Do not treat
The lake of modal support.
The mode deep
The sbir
The lbir
The flutter echo
The slap echo
The inhomogeneous decay


But but but !! what do this extraordinary trinnov costing a fortune?
It seems to me you just argue for the sake of argument (which is sadly not unheard of in this forum)

You just randomly listed acoustic problems, some related to each other, some nothing to do with the subject.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for example SBIR should be avoided/corrected/mitigated by changing the position of your speakers so that the first big cancellation notch is
a.) at a high enough frequency so that's reasonably easy to treat with eg. some porous absorption material, or
b.) low enough that your speaker can not even play it (below the frequency response capabilities of your speaker).
Why the hell would you want to start to cure this with EQ or time delay/phase correction?

Just to clarify: have you ever tried/heard any Trinnov system, or you just decided in advance you hate it?

Yes, it's not cheap but you can spend the same amount (or way more) on some high-end microphones, processors etc where very often the high pricing is more about the hype and tradition than the actual audio quality benefit. In my opinion, in this value/benefit/alternatives comparison context, the pricing of an ST2 Pro is not even extreme at all.
My 2 cents
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4666
Lives for gear
 
Overdrive's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt ➡️
Difficult to answer; I've used the Trinnov with four different monitors so far and they still sound very different despite the FR, phase, and impulse responses becoming near-identical. The Trinnov makes the monitor sound the best it can in any particular room but it doesn't make a $1000 monitor sound like a $20,000 one. Still, I think you'll be amazed at the improvement it does make.
This is 100% my experience too.
With the ST2Pro for the past 3 years, can't think of mixing without it ever again. Trinnov makes the monitors sound their best in the room and the mixes translate to the rest of the world. This is probably one on the best investments I have ever made.
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4667
Lives for gear
 
Shaggy2039's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozonepaul ➡️
1. Someone below your post suggested you to incorporate some diffuser(s) into your room treatment. If your REW measurements (or your ears) suggest you that diffusion would help, than I agree, do it.

2. Also, I've got sort of a similar closet on the back wall, in my case it's 60cm deep floor to ceiling. First I filled it with pink fluffy, than I tried it with rock wool with bigger air flow resistance (resulting in less high frequency but more low frequency absorption). In my room the rock wool improved the sound way more. Do some calculations, perhaps Rockwool rather than pink fluffy would help your room more. Also, I filled it in a way that I left some airgap between two layers. I don't remember the exact ideal thicknesses but I do remember that I calculated it with the multi layer absorber calculator of http://www.acousticmodelling.com/. And it worked, I got my best REW measurements after filling it with a Rockwool-Airgap-Rockwool sandwich instead of just rockwool.

3. No way I would ever suggest someone having an untreated room to invest in Trinnov before proper room treatment. But based on your comment, I would say you are the ideal "Trinnov customer". Someone who is not going to just put it in a "hangar" and expect magic. You have already done a lot to improve the room acoustics and you look at the Trinnov "as the icing on the cake". That's exactly what the Trinnov is for, your situation is precisely the situation where I would highly suggest to trial the Trinnov ST2. Also, have some REW measurements to compare the Trinnov results, to have an objective before-after data to help you decide whether it worth the investment or not.
+ You mentioned, you would get back the investment if it speeds up your workflow. In that case don't hesitate much, just go ahead and try it. I have heard the ST2 in a great studio room and the difference was obvious. No, it wasn't night and day but most home studios (even the reasonably well treated ones) have way more acoustic problems than where I heard the ST2. So even though it's not a magic wand, I'm 100% sure it will give you obvious improvements as far frequency response and transient clarity/phase coherence.
Appreciate all this, man. I was told by the GIK guys that pink fluffy was a good way to go, but it had to be un-compressed so it leaves air between packing it in. I've got uncompressed fluffy also above my cloud too which was a night and day difference taming the 140-160hz floor to ceiling bump.

So yeah, I've started to sock away money for the Trinnov and my plan is early next year to demo with the intent that I'll love it and can purchase right away. Just need to get through this holiday season and taxes before I spend another $8K on the Trinnov. I also think I'll go with the Dmon-6 from what I've been reading but still researching what the benefits are vs ST2.
Old 29th November 2021
  #4668
Lives for gear
 
sax512's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Anybody compared Trinnov and Acourate?
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4669
Lives for gear
 
Shaggy2039's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sax512 ➡️
Anybody compared Trinnov and Acourate?
Another one is Math Audio which I've been hearing about. Would be curious how that panned out against Trinnov.
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4670
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt ➡️
Well, I've paid five G's for stuff that I didn't think was worth five G's in retrospect. The Trinnov sounds like 20 G's.
In an untreated room it's going to sound like 500 bucks.
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4671
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeswolfenstein ➡️
In an untreated room it's going to sound like 500 bucks.

Sure... but that is probably a conversation to have in the low end forum.
Old 29th November 2021
  #4672
DAH
Lives for gear
 
DAH's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
any DSP correction should be discussed not in this thread, too.
Old 29th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4673
Lives for gear
 
sax512's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH ➡️
any DSP correction should be discussed not in this thread, too.
Why? Phase correction can only be done right through DSP. Phase being audible in near field (according to at least a few of us), and the vast majority of monitors not having a remotely decent step (phase) response as they come, DSP correction is quite relevant in this thread, I think.
Old 30th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4674
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeswolfenstein ➡️
In an untreated room it's going to sound like 500 bucks.
I have an untreated room. Not ONE CENT spent on "treatment". Can't sound any good.
Old 30th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4675
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sax512 ➡️
Why? Phase correction can only be done right through DSP. Phase being audible in near field (according to at least a few of us), and the vast majority of monitors not having a remotely decent step (phase) response as they come, DSP correction is quite relevant in this thread, I think.
DSP Bad; Room-treatment Good. Doncha know?
Old 30th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4676
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt ➡️
I have an untreated room. Not ONE CENT spent on "treatment". Can't sound any good.

Certainly not. Rooms can only be judged based on the amount of treatment on the walls. Less treatment obviously means it is far worse...
Old 30th November 2021
  #4677
Lives for gear
 
Squawk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
In this thread, Trinnov is now the new Genelec…
Old 30th November 2021
  #4678
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
I bet Genelec folks don’t think Trinnov is better than the GLM software? this could open a can of worms
Old 30th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4679
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdrive ➡️
This is 100% my experience too.
With the ST2Pro for the past 3 years, can't think of mixing without it ever again. Trinnov makes the monitors sound their best in the room and the mixes translate to the rest of the world. This is probably one on the best investments I have ever made.
I thought so, too, but I now realize I would've been far better off spending the money on room-treatment and am grateful to all those GS participants who made me aware of this Eternal Truth.
Old 30th November 2021 | Show parent
  #4680
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDStudios ➡️
Certainly not. Rooms can only be judged based on the amount of treatment on the walls. Less treatment obviously means it is far worse...
And NO treatment means it's only fit for raising poultry.
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