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Trident A Range
Old 25th May 2012 | Show parent
  #601
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🎧 10 years
Hey, thanks guys.
Old 29th May 2012
  #602
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🎧 15 years
I'm servicing a Trident A Range rack and the modules in it are a different version than I have seen before. They are marked TRIDENT AUDIO DEVELOPMENTS Channel Amplifier Type 1038, have a blue PCB, a more complex mic/line attenuator than the modules I've seen before, and appear to have a few less amplifier stages. Does anyone know the story behind this version or better still, have the schematic? These modules have all sorts of problems but the component designators differ from the more common module, and I'm hoping I don't have to reverse engineer a schematic. I might add that ALL the switches on these modules are totally shot, and all are being replaced. Photo attached, thanks in advance.

Old 29th May 2012 | Show parent
  #603
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🎧 15 years
Switches going bad - that's a common thread in these modules. Faders too...

David - you did the desk in Image Studio B? Any recall where it came from, and where it went after? If you have photos, that would help us track it...
Old 29th May 2012 | Show parent
  #604
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studiochap's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Very interesting pic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kulka ➑️
I'm servicing a Trident A Range rack and the modules in it are a different version than I have seen before. They are marked TRIDENT AUDIO DEVELOPMENTS Channel Amplifier Type 1038, have a blue PCB, a more complex mic/line attenuator than the modules I've seen before, and appear to have a few less amplifier stages. Does anyone know the story behind this version or better still, have the schematic? These modules have all sorts of problems but the component designators differ from the more common module, and I'm hoping I don't have to reverse engineer a schematic. I might add that ALL the switches on these modules are totally shot, and all are being replaced. Photo attached, thanks in advance.
This is a very interesting pic. Although I had been under the impression that the original prototype board that went into the studio had different McMurdo connectors ( I had thought they were 24-way, although I never saw a channel from that console pulled out.. EDIT but maybe I got it wrong and it was that only 24 or so pins were actually populated.... ) I'm pretty certain that this rack of modules MUST be from the original prototype A Range. As I've stated in previous posts, I was around for the build of the first production A Range until the 8th or 9th A Range built.

Before I start with the differences, I do have a very, very vague memory of seeing a module like this laying around in the R & D lab at the North Rd factory.

Firstly the blue circuit board. All the circuit boards I remember were green fibreglass ones, which we got from Classical Circuits in Kingston.

The switch brackets for the Lipa and Isostat switches are the original type - these were later changed for brackets which wrapped-over the switches.,

The standard of wiring on this module is very poor indeed, really crap. On the production models the line input was done in screened cable...you can clearly see that on this one it isn't - just the mic input. We didn't use cable ties until 73 or 74... and then we used white Thomas and Betts ones. I'm wondering if at some point somebody has cut the waxed lacing twine off the loom (to reverse engineer it?) and then put the black ties on.

The mute switch is an STC/Plessey standard telephone-type switch. These were used in the first couple of B Ranges, too, and just might have been used in the first production A Range for Crown Records, Tokyo, but the later ones all had the more modern Jeanrenaud mute switches. EDIT it was just the B range that had Jeanrenaud mute switches. A Range had Jeanrenauds for the routing, but CK paddle rocker switch for A Range mute. Almost 40 years does tricks with the memory sometimes!

All the consoles ( both A and B) with which I was involved had McMurdo Red Range 32-way connectors. This one has a Blue Range 32-way connector ( I have a feeling the ranges are not compatible.)

The chassis is black. All the A Range chassis we used in production were cadmium plated.

The Elma switches and attenuator, and Ruwido faders all look original.

This board is far less populated (with components) than the production versions. The relay isn't the reed type ( EDIT Alma ) used on production A range channels, it's a flatpack Panasonic-style.

We used white nylon transistor mounting pads for the RCA 40361/62 transistors and also the BC413/416. There are no mounting pads on the transistors in the pic...

The 2n3054 transistors are mounted on the PCB here...on the production channels they were mounted on the rear chassis.

Everything points to these channels being from the original Trident studios console.

Sadly this means that unless anyone has a copy of those original schematics ( and if we had them at the factory they would only have been in a drawer in the R & D lab - when I had to collate and organize all A Range documentation I certainly never saw them) David will probably have to reverse-engineer the channel in order to get a schematic.
Old 29th May 2012 | Show parent
  #605
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🎧 15 years
Studiochap, thanks for your informative reply, though it was not quite what I wanted to hear. Some quick comments:

This rack I'm servicing also includes 2 "standard" A Range modules, which helps a bit in terms of understanding signal flow differences, etc.

I've worked on a few other A Range projects and don't recall ever seeing a blue PCB before, either.

Yes, the wiring seems sloppy. The module has clearly been modified though, and the harness got a bit torn up in the process. As received, many of the resistors have been lifted on one end, in some cases unsoldered on both ends and are just wiggling around loose in the PCB holes. It's hard to imagine Trident leaving it in this condition, I have to think it was some client or studio. The wiring at the 32 pin connector is extra messy and looks like it was changed many times.

The chassis isn't really black -- it is the typical plum / aubergine color.

Yes, the relay is a flat pack type but also there is 1 and not 3, as my 2 "normal" modules each have, and as shown on the schematic. Not yet sure what to make of this.

The blue and red connectors are compatible. I built a test harness and it works with both module types.

The Mic/Line attenuator is 5 poles instead of 2. Not sure what to make of this, either.

I'm going to PM some previous contributors to this thread in case they have the right schematic, but after reading Studiochap's comments, now expect the worst! With the wiring harness so tightly bundled, the switches mounted close together, the extra poles on the input attenuator, and all the mods, this will be a pretty rough task! If anyone has documentation that might help, please let me know asap.

(Aside to Brian K: Yes, I did the Image B console. It was shipped to Image from the U.K., and may have come straight from Trident themselves. I remember that it had been disassembled very randomly, was incredibly dirty, and was very messily cobbled together in places. I probably have a few photos but they would mostly be of the us and our wiring tasks, with the desk more of a background feature.)
Old 29th May 2012 | Show parent
  #606
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kulka ➑️

Yes, the relay is a flat pack type but also there is 1 and not 3, as my 2 "normal" modules each have, and as shown on the schematic. Not yet sure what to make of this.
From memory the 3 relays in the "normal" modules would be the remix relay, and EDIT the mute and PFL signals.

Wonder what the single one does?
Old 29th May 2012 | Show parent
  #607
njm
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🎧 10 years
Have a 2038 pic for comparison

1038 schematic is on groupdiy.com. Most of it's the same as the 2038 but the IO stages are a bit different and the order of things in the signal path.

Could you post a pic of the front panel too?

Nick
Attached Thumbnails
Trident A Range-2038module.jpg  
Old 29th May 2012 | Show parent
  #608
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studiochap's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by njm ➑️
Have a 2038 pic for comparison

1038 schematic is on groupdiy.com. Most of it's the same as the 2038 but the IO stages are a bit different and the order of things in the signal path.

Could you post a pic of the front panel too?

Nick
Good one, Nick!

Interesting that the 1038 schematic via groupdiy shows 3 relays. Noticed also that the 2038 in your pic has the usual Belclere ZUTT012A mic trafo, but the Belclere 782a line trafo has evolved into a Jensen. Wiring a bit better on the module in your pic, but still not really up to scratch...:-)
Old 29th May 2012 | Show parent
  #609
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🎧 15 years
1038 scheme and compo here as well - just uploading it

Index of /pdf/Trident_Triad
Old 30th May 2012 | Show parent
  #610
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🎧 15 years
Nick and Klett, thanks a million! You just saved me a LOT of aggravation, MUCH appreciated! Here's a photo of the front panel.

Old 30th May 2012 | Show parent
  #611
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by njm ➑️
Have a 2038 pic for comparison

1038 schematic is on groupdiy.com. Most of it's the same as the 2038 but the IO stages are a bit different and the order of things in the signal path.

Could you post a pic of the front panel too?

Nick
Those Tantalum caps dry-out too... I once had to service a couple Trident Rack mount CB9066 parametric EQs, those units were loaded with like 56 of them; You could hear it coming back to life as I moved along.
Old 31st May 2012 | Show parent
  #612
njm
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🎧 10 years
I've not had problems with the tants on these. Yet. Most problems have been dry joints, noisy transistors and dirty switches. Just like every other bit of gear.

I wonder why they dropped the pre & post EQ inserts for the mic/line switch...

@Gwyn. That module's from the chipping norton desk. 1974?. The trafos were changed to JE13k7 by Clive Kavan when it went out to japan. I believe
Old 31st May 2012 | Show parent
  #613
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🎧 15 years
couple things...

Regarding the year for the first A Range: Last week I asked Malcolm about when the A and B Range consoles came out and he said... "the first A Range was in fact manufactured at the end of 1971. The B Range followed sometime in 1972 as design had already started alongside the A Range."

In the same eMail I asked about the VFM, which I had forgotten about in my info sheet, and his response was... "The VFM was designed in 1982 and stood for 'Value For Money'. At that time, there were a lot of really cheap mixers coming onto the market such as Studiomaster and MM Electronics in the UK. The VFM was designed to compete with them but with the added bonus of being modular. It wasn't Trident's finest hour as the electronics were really cut to the bone although many people who have got hold of them in recent years say they sound pretty good!"

and he also said that... "Having read through all of the info there are a number of inaccuracies, but I don't have time to correct them..." ...sigh... so I have to do some updating as new info comes in. He's a busy guy... The new 82 series desk is coming along.

I would like to hear the A Range and Series 80 rack units in their current form in some sort of A/B against the originals (which A Range module can be said to be original is a matter of some debate as they are all a little different console to console). I am curious how the input transformer sounds... we did a lot of looking and listening when we were looking for a ZUTT012A and found none of the off the shelf ones were close as far as how they sounded. The original ZUTT parts were... hmmm... whats a good word... imperfect? non-ideal? But they had a certain something and we ended up having ours custom wound. That took some doing because the various winders kept wanting to "fix" it.

Regarding Tantalums in your 9066... I am not a fan of solid Tantalum caps. They often short or go leaky. There is a lot of variability in quality and they produce a kind of distortion I find distracting and non-musical. Others think the Tants are part of the secret sauce for a lot of gear so I don't force tantalum replacement as a blanket thing that must be done for other people's gear... however... as far as Tants drying out and changing value, like a lot of "wet" electrolytic caps do over time, I have not seen that. The value seems to remain pretty constant - until they short or get very leaky and then the value goes very low... generally the way they are applied in circuit that would not tend to cause the bandwidth problems associated with wet caps that dry out. So... in the case of your CB9066 EQ I am wondering if it was just the peeling away of the layers of Tantalum Fog you were experiencing... that EQ is really nice BTW

Last edited by klett; 31st May 2012 at 02:49 PM.. Reason: fix a couple typos and add a little but on tants
Old 31st May 2012 | Show parent
  #614
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studiochap's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by njm ➑️
I've not had problems with the tants on these. Yet. Most problems have been dry joints, noisy transistors and dirty switches. Just like every other bit of gear.

I wonder why they dropped the pre & post EQ inserts for the mic/line switch...

@Gwyn. That module's from the chipping norton desk. 1974?. The trafos were changed to JE13k7 by Clive Kavan when it went out to japan. I believe
Hi Nick, now I'm pretty confused...:-) The Chipping Norton board was one of the consoles I was involved in building, yet as mentioned I have no memories of any blue circuit boards in any of the production consoles, no memories of any module chassis that weren't cadmium plated, plus there are all the many other differences I 've listed between that module and the production ones.

Where physically on that module are the other 2 relays that are on the 1038 schematic?

The Chipping Norton board was not the first ( Crown Records, Tokyo) or the second ( Andre Perry - Morin Heights, Quebec) of the production consoles. I can remember Clive mentioning he'd changed some output trafos to Jensen, but couldn't remember on which console.
Old 31st May 2012
  #615
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Hey John, actually D.W. Fearn turned me onto the Tants being a problem. When I was given the EQ's to fix, as they both were dead, barley passing signal. I had looked high and low for data on them back then. He suggested the Tants dry out, and that was most likely the only thing wrong with them. I followed his advice and as I recapped a section and test before moving on, low and behold there was the sound!

PS: He's a big fan of that EQ.
Old 31st May 2012 | Show parent
  #616
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by klett ➑️
couple things...

Regarding the year for the first A Range: Last week I asked Malcolm about when the A and B Range consoles came out and he said... "the first A Range was in fact manufactured at the end of 1971. The B Range followed sometime in 1972 as design had already started alongside the A Range."
The first B Range was made for the producer John Kongos. I never saw that one. The second was for Saturn Sound in Worthing, and had the same STC/Plessey type mute switches that are on the A Range channel pic you posted. I built some of the pcb's and wired some of the channels on the Worthing board.
Old 31st May 2012 | Show parent
  #617
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klett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubehead ➑️
Hey John, actually D.W. Fearn turned me onto the Tants being a problem. When I was given the EQ's to fix, as they both were dead, barley passing signal. I had looked high and low for data on them back then. He suggested the Tants dry out, and that was most likely the only thing wrong with them. I followed his advice and as I recapped a section and test before moving on, low and behold there was the sound!

PS: He's a big fan of that EQ.
Huh!... well y'learn new stuff every day... actually I can't say I have measured every Tant I have pulled out of gear... and generally replacing the "wet" aluminum caps does the trick as far as restoring bandwidth and getting modules back to within spec. Tants are used in timing circuits and such in 2% tolerances and in some EQ lo bands. I do know that there is a lot of variability in how they are made... though I think the term "dry out" is misapplied w these since they are not wet to begin with. Well - no matter the mechanism - it's just one more reason to ditch them IMHO.

You also sucked out and redid a LOT of solder joints as you went... at least 112 if your cap count is correct... and as NJM pointed out - cold cracked solder connections are extremely common. Simple reheating is not anywhere near as effective as removing the old solder, cleaning and re-soldering.
Old 31st May 2012 | Show parent
  #618
njm
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiochap ➑️
Hi Nick, now I'm pretty confused...:-) The Chipping Norton board was one of the consoles I was involved in building, yet as mentioned I have no memories of any blue circuit boards in any of the production consoles, no memories of any module chassis that weren't cadmium plated, plus there are all the many other differences I 've listed between that module and the production ones.

Where physically on that module are the other 2 relays that are on the 1038 schematic?

The Chipping Norton board was not the first ( Crown Records, Tokyo) or the second ( Andre Perry - Morin Heights, Quebec) of the production consoles. I can remember Clive mentioning he'd changed some output trafos to Jensen, but couldn't remember on which console.
sorry to confuse you! I meant the picture I put up of the 2038 module with the jensen is from the chipping norton desk.

On the 1038 module there's pads for 2 more relays up the top of the module behind the low pass filter switches, both linked out. RL2 remix and RL3 mute.

On the 2038 module there's 2 fitted reed relays, and two more relays that are bypassed. One above the red relay and one to the left of the transformers. The two bypassed ones aren't on the schematic that klett put up. I have got an earlier schematic with them on though, will try and get it scanned next week
Old 31st May 2012
  #619
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I know right? I'm telling you it was the weirdest thing, but there it was coming back to life cap by cap.

Also you really taught me a lot about Tridents years ago, thanks for that.
Old 31st May 2013 | Show parent
  #620
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🎧 5 years
Hi there
iam completely new here and i need some help of finding out what i have found
in my studio vault, its a EQ from an old console which looks to me like a Trident A range
module but on the back of the board it say "Raindirk" printed on the circut board??
anyone knows what I have here??
Thanx alot for any help on this


http://image-upload.de/image/FZqACX/01a0e6f2eb.jpg
Old 31st May 2013 | Show parent
  #621
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jcoutu1's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredy101 ➑️
Hi there
iam completely new here and i need some help of finding out what i have found
in my studio vault, its a EQ from an old console which looks to me like a Trident A range
module but on the back of the board it say "Raindirk" printed on the circut board??
anyone knows what I have here??
Thanx alot for any help on this
Looks like junk, I'll give you $50 for it.
Old 31st May 2013
  #622
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Rick Carson's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
In in the same boat, it's junk sell it to me!
Old 31st May 2013
  #623
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dlmorley's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I'd ask these guys!
Raindirk Audio
Old 31st May 2013 | Show parent
  #624
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlmorley ➑️
I'd ask these guys!
Raindirk Audio
Looks like this guy nailed it....

http://www.raindirkaudio.com/images/...solecentre.jpg
Old 31st May 2013 | Show parent
  #625
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoutu1 ➑️
Looks like this guy nailed it....

Indeed!
Old 13th September 2013 | Show parent
  #626
bee
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raw-Tracks ➑️
Lynn, the A-Range that was at Quad was actually Blue. Here's a picture to refresh your memory.
Who owns this console now? I saw it listed at Vintage King after Butch Vigs Smart Studios closed it doors. Beautiful looking console.
Old 13th September 2013 | Show parent
  #627
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bee ➑️
Who owns this console now? I saw it listed at Vintage King after Butch Vigs Smart Studios closed it doors. Beautiful looking console.
last i heard it was for sale @ Vintage King... don't know where it went after that. i was tempted but it would have been more the result of a romantic fantasy than anything having to do with practicality so i did my best to ignore it... did end up buying two modules from the Trident in Cherokee's Studio 3 though. very happy about that.
Old 13th September 2013 | Show parent
  #628
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bee ➑️
Who owns this console now? I saw it listed at Vintage King after Butch Vigs Smart Studios closed it doors. Beautiful looking console.
It's back here in L.A. now, went to a private (for now) owner. Hope it sees a lot of use...
Old 13th September 2013 | Show parent
  #629
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BrianK's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by klett ➑️
couple things...

Regarding the year for the first A Range: Last week I asked Malcolm about when the A and B Range consoles came out and he said... "the first A Range was in fact manufactured at the end of 1971. The B Range followed sometime in 1972 as design had already started alongside the A Range."
Malcolm has helped me as well with some good input on this, but more details change the date a bit. There were once claims saying 1970, but I have been digging very deep into A-Range history. While they may have completed some circuits/modules for the desk in 1971, the finished console seems to have been completed later in 1972, and was installed mid/late 1972 at St Anne's Court, to replace the Sound Techniques console.

There is a December 1971 photo of the chassis being wired, so some circuits were complete, but not the whole console. In summer of 1972, they had done press about the "just completed" desk with new photos before the install. It seems quite unlikely to wait 8-10 months to install something like that. Bowie's Aladdin Sane was one of the first records done on the new console, October 1972.

BTW - Norman Sheffield (co-owner of Trident) has just published his memoir, a book called "Life on Two Legs" telling his side of the TRIDENT story. I'm sure some will debate it, but portions of it are quite true and revealing. I think the title is hilarious, knowing the Queen reference!!
Old 13th September 2013 | Show parent
  #630
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🎧 15 years
Many of you have commented on the old Zutt transformer and its sound. We have been busy in a redesign on the A-Range module. We have since redesigned(but not yet built) the unit to where the module could be used on both a horizontal and vertical position. So we can continue to use it its its current form in a 2U rack with the original mic pre, and we will also next year come out with an A-Range side car console.

The last 8 months, we have managed to duplicate the Zutt transformer...not in look, but in sound and spec. We have replace the current transformers on one of the channels of the current A-Range and put in the new ones. This unit will be sent to Joe Chiccarelli and few others who were instrumental in assisting us with making sure the current A-Rage was in fact the real deal. So we hope that Joe and the others again, put their stamp of approval on the new transformers which will call the ZUTTO_A.

While this is going to take some time to complete, we thought you should know because if the transformers are good to go, then we will market them as well. So that is the update for PMI Audio. Our new Series 80B EQ and Mic pre 500 Modules will be shipping end of year or after NAMM...
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