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Small mixing boards in the tracking room?
Old 13th September 2002
  #1
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Small mixing boards in the tracking room?

Who has them, a number of small boards in the tracking room?
How many boards and channels and with what do you feed them?

Do you make a sub mix of the drums for them?

Do you use a separate reverb unit or do you send the reverb you use in the CR to these boards?

Mackie? Behringer? SSL?heh

What are your experiences, are musicians happy with it, do they have problems with "mixing"?

Peace, Han
Old 13th September 2002
  #2
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
What are you talking about? Do you mean small consoles for cue mixes?
Old 13th September 2002
  #3
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Yes Jay, for cue mixes. I wonder how many studios use them.
I was thinking of buying 5 or 6 boards with 12 or 16 inputs.

Peace, Han
Old 15th September 2002
  #4
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Nobody? Weird, in the Netherlands quite some studios use them for cue mixes.

I have a big console and I can make 5 different mixes for those who are tracking, but I found out many of them don't tell what they want or are not able to explain what they want or like.

How about a DAW like Nuendo, can you make a number of cue mixes for the artists with it?
Old 15th September 2002
  #5
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
We bought 5 of these a while ago .... on a stack sale ...; realy cheap : Fostex VM88. We paied them something like 100$ a piece if I remember well.

The plan is to use them as cue mixers in the recording rooms once our new building is finished (which hasn't even started yet ... .... but soon ... very soon)
Attached Thumbnails
Small mixing boards in the tracking room?-vm88_lg.jpg  
Old 15th September 2002
  #6
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Couldn't find anything about the VM88 on the Fostex site Chris.
How many inputs has it?

I was thinking about needing at least ten or twelve in. Two for a drum mix, two guitars, two for keyboards, two for vocals, two for bas (mic and DI) and two extra for other instruments like horns.

I use to record whole bands in the room.

Peace, Han
Old 15th September 2002
  #7
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
A bunch of places in Nashville have them (Not me, but a bunch of others). Besides the specialty rigs like the Que 8 (and on a budget, the Furman), I've seem both Mackie 1202's and 1604's, the Furman Some have a little reverb unit in the rack, some don't.

By the way, there are pros and cons to letting the musicians handle their own headphone mixes - be aware that it's not all a good thing.
Old 15th September 2002
  #8
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http://www.fostex.co.jp/int/pages/pr...ffect/vm88.htm


http://www.fostex.co.jp/int/pages/pr...fect/vm200.htm

the bigger version ...


we got them because they were on sale
Old 15th September 2002
  #9
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Dave

>>By the way, there are pros and cons to letting the musicians handle their own headphone mixes - be aware that it's not all a good thing.<<

There's no problem, they can still have a cue mix from the main board if the don't like doing it by themselves.

Chris, thanks for the links, very nice boards!
Old 15th September 2002
  #10
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Han
Dave

There's no problem, they can still have a cue mix from the main board if the don't like doing it by themselves.
Actually, it has little to do with whether or not THEY like it. You can do a lot towards getting the performance you want by the headphone mix that you give them - especially vocals. letting the singers control their own mix takes away one of your most powerful tools.
Old 15th September 2002
  #11
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin
letting the singers control their own mix takes away one of your most powerful tools.

very good point. definately for unexperienced ones.
Old 16th September 2002
  #12
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have the Furman rig here with the HDR-6. It's not that bad but Dave is right as usual. Sometimes people can't handle having that much control over their mix. I have some clients that I just feed a stereo mix to.
Old 16th September 2002
  #13
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Jules's Avatar
Sometimes as I adjust the singers volume in the foldback mix I can hear a sweet spot where their pitching is best...

Its a zen thing for me

If I worked with hot studio cats fulltime I would think of getting such a system, but I don't.
Old 16th September 2002
  #14
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Mike O's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin


Actually, it has little to do with whether or not THEY like it. You can do a lot towards getting the performance you want by the headphone mix that you give them - especially vocals. letting the singers control their own mix takes away one of your most powerful tools.

This is SO true. Performers (especially singers) will respond to what is in the phones. If the performer makes themselves too hot they will tend to "mouse away". If on the other hand they are too quiet in thier mix they wiill tend to force. Multiply this by the number of instruments you allow the artist to mix and you can get some pretty big problems with the performer responding to what they have dialed up.

How does the engineer/producer controlling the mix the artist hears has help? By hearing/seeing his mix you can often help with the above issues by suggesting different approaches or simply changing the mix when you hear them forcing or backing away. Check their mic technique while this is going down also for clues.

This seems to apply the more suble the performance is/needs to be.

Whether or not a perfermer can handle there own mix does not seem relavant to recording experience either. Some people seem to know exactly what they need to hear with very little experience. Some others who have recorded their whole lives never seem to get it.
Old 16th September 2002
  #15
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Sometimes as I adjust the singers volume in the foldback mix I can hear a sweet spot where their pitching is best...

Its a zen thing for me
Sure. And there's a sweet spot for the other instruments. And there's even more you can do with reverb (or the lack of reverb). All in all, having control of the headphones is a GOOD thing.
Old 16th September 2002
  #16
Craneslut
 
Brad Blackwood's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Try here...
Old 16th September 2002
  #17
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Dave, you have a very good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.

That's one of the advantages of a forum right?

Peace, Han
Old 16th September 2002
  #18
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Jules's Avatar
Jeez.. that's some comprehensive foldback mixer!
Old 16th September 2002
  #19
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Brad Blackwood
Try here...
You know, I've never quite understood how you patch in these kinds of systems - the PrivateQ, the Que8, and even the Furman. Do you just have a harness that breaks out into a big mass of TT cables laying over the patchbay? And if so, do you take direct outs, inserts, or do you set up 'tracking' busses', so that the buss outs can be used to feed the system? And then do you have the harness laying on top on the console or do you wire it into another set of patch points?

Who has one?
Old 16th September 2002
  #20
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin

By the way, there are pros and cons to letting the musicians handle their own headphone mixes - be aware that it's not all a good thing. [/B]
I don't know if this is what you meant, but I think there's something to be said for having all of the musicians perceive the music in the same way, that the volume relationships be the same for everyone so everyone has the same sense of where they fit in the matrix. Of course, there are all sorts of valid exceptions, for instance the pedal steel player who needs to hear his own pitch better, or more clik for the drummer, etc, but I usually enjoy having everyone hear the same "band" at once. If it's a somewhat improvisatory session, I think the musicians will gravitate toward playing in such a way that everyone's headphone mix sounds clear and musical. However, this all presupposes working with pros who play as much to make each other sound good as to toot their own horn.

(BTW Dave, will we see you at AES?)

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Old 17th September 2002
  #21
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman


I don't know if this is what you meant,
(BTW Dave, will we see you at AES?)

Rick Krizman
Well, there's certainly truth you what you said, but I was thinking more basic than that - how controlling something as simple as the singer's volume in relation to the track can change the whole texture if their voice by forcing them to sing harder or softer to hear themselves. This will also affect their sense of pitch, as will things like turning up the bass more than the piano, for example.

And giving reverb to a vocalist will change their performance as well, for better or worse (it depends on the singer). Another example - almost all of my singers (and the steel and fiddle players) want me to mute the organ tracks when they do overdubs - the Leslie destroys their ability to play in tune with the thing. I know that, so when I bring in less experienced vocalists, it's pretty much an automatic thing to mute the organ (unless that's the only harmonic reference on the track).

And yeah, Carolyn and I are coming in on the 6th - will there be time for a get-together?
Old 22nd September 2002
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Guys

I have three Seck mixing boards, two of them 18/8/2 and one 12/8/2.

These boards are a bit rare, but very versatile and small and the weight of the 1882 is 17 kilo.

They sound much better than a Mackie:eek: Sometimes I use them for location recordings.

I found a pile of snakes I had forgotten about and so I had to buy nothing heh

I have put the boards in the tracking room and connected them to the main board's patch pannel, to the tape returns and this weekend we did a session with a band, all "one takers".

It worked just great! I have a drum mix sent to 1 and 2, vocals to 3 and 4, guitars to 5 and 6, keyboards to 7 and 8, bass to 9 and 10 and reverb to 11 and 12.

A couple of songs needed the vocals redone and there the remarks of Dave came to mind, so I gave the singer(s) a headphone mix from the main board as usual.

It was a very good session and the band is very happy, and so am I

Peace, Han
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