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Harsh and sibilant ear splitting sounds that get revealed at high volumes.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #31
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by carival ➑️
Tannoy Super Golds
$2,300.00 per pair :D without the amp :D

That's quite hefty XD

Anything cheaper plz ? lol
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WunderBro Flo ➑️
The cheapes method is to use headphones at pretty high levels for short time. The headphones are firing the bright transients directly into your ear, so these issues are better audible than on almost any speaker which fires into the room first...the headphones are putting these things under a microscope. I found that on any source that has bright transients, it is useful to activate a lowpass filter and sweep it down until you hear it working and leave it there. At first it often feels like you are giving something away, but in reality you gain more than you lose. I find this technique especially useful on hihats, overheads, guitars and eventually vocals. It is also very often very nice to lowpass the S signal of the 2 buss, as long as you have highs in the M signal you can set the filter on the S signal stunningly low (like 12kHz), taking lots of "hysterical movement" out of the mix while not sounding dull. To me, overly bright transients are most annoying when panned out.
I know, I actually use this technique as I said in the post , but the problem with headphones and very loud levels is that it damages the ear if you do it for a long time , like when looking if there are no peaking transients in the song.

Do you know of any speakers that can show those flaws at moderate volume apart from the very expensive ones ?
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WunderBro Flo ➑️
I do not know speakers that show this as obvious as headphones do, and even if they have the ability to show it, you would still have to crank them up loud, there is no way around it. Short periods of loud (not insame loud) levels will not damage your hearing imho.
I am pretty sure ADAMS have the ability to not hide those fast transients, I have owned smaller and bigger ADAMS and they all had a very fast transient response - this is exactly what you need to hear, the difference between sharp transients and rounded off transients. On "slow" speakers they will all sound rounded off and you will not really know when to act and when to leave them alone.
Hi Mr I am very intrigued by your post about harsh frequencies , If I understand well and if you don't mind explaining , the harsh frequencies are not well represented on my monitors TWINS and KH 0300 because their tweeters are slow ? :O

So does it mean that if I can hear the harsh and piercing frequencies on consumer grade system or PA system it means simply that those systems provide faster transients than pro-monitor speakers ? :O

It's very confusing, how can listening on insanely loud levels on my monitors allow me hear those culprits ?? What element comes in play at insane levels that is not available in moderate listening levels ??

Please do share your experience , this is getting very very interesting
Old 27th September 2012
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Does anyone here understand what is meant by the Australian slang word "hissy fit"?
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #35
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Could early reflections or high pitched resonances be more apparent with increased SPL? These would depend on the pitched components of different tracks.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Harsh transients should be clearly audible on any decent monitoring system. If you're looking for a speaker that is informative when you crank it up, try the JBL LSR 28's.

-R
Old 27th September 2012
  #37
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Before you go out and buy new monitors (which you do not need), i would check your recording and playback levels. What you describe sounds to me like you either:
1. hit your converters too hard going in
2. are exceeding your computers' headroom on the way out, which will definitely be killing your D-A
3. Exceeding the headroom of your console if you are using one.

This kind of "bad" distortion will not be so obvious at low levels but kills you when you crank it up. Record and mix with proper headroom-- you can (and will!) make it louder in mastering.
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #38
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Silvertone's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
What you are hearing is caused by the listening mechanism in the brain. Volume goes up and certain frequencies are easier to hear, volume goes down, same things happens.

In the "minds ear" about 84 to 85dB is where highs, mids and lows "cross over" evenly. Monitor your mix at this level occasionally turning up the volume. If something hurts your ears when you turn it up, hunt down the offending frequencies and attenuate accordingly. It really is as easy as that.

Any half way decent monitors (read the majority of todays studio speakers) will reveal this.

In time all this will become easier as you train (in your mind) your ears to hear what you are really hearing.
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone ➑️
What you are hearing is caused by the listening mechanism in the brain. Volume goes up and certain frequencies are easier to hear, volume goes down, same things happens.

In the "minds ear" about 84 to 85dB is where highs, mids and lows "cross over" evenly. Monitor your mix at this level occasionally turning up the volume. If something hurts your ears when you turn it up, hunt down the offending frequencies and attenuate accordingly. It really is as easy as that.

Any half way decent monitors (read the majority of todays studio speakers) will reveal this.

In time all this will become easier as you train (in your mind) your ears to hear what you are really hearing.
Hi mate thanks for your input

Actually saying that most of the speakers today reveal the offending frequencies ..FALSE

I have focal twins and KH 0300 ... and they don't reveal those flaws , it all sounds smooth, I tried a Focal cms 65, still the same , smooth even at high volumes(TRY YOU WILL SEE). On my friend's ATC it's harsh when things in the mix are harsh ... but smooth when everything is nice.

Saying that a lot of speakers out there reveal those flaws ... I mean come on , I wish what you were saying was true :(

What speakers are you using by the way ?
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #40
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm with Larry on this one. It's not just the speakers, it's also how you interpret what you're hearing. Funny, the one time I heard the Focals I thought they sounded very harsh, or perhaps I should say they were revealing the harshness of the program material. Maybe your room is overly damped.

-R
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #41
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
One other thought. Is it possible that extremely hot mixes challenge the headroom of inferior playback systems? Your Focals might be able to handle a signal that would clip the analog electronics of another system.

-R
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman ➑️
One other thought. Is it possible that extremely hot mixes challenge the headroom of inferior playback systems? Your Focals might be able to handle a signal that would clip the analog electronics of another system.

-R
That sounds very plausible ... but how can I hear it on the ATC ... which are speakers that cost like a little house and have huge headroom :o
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #43
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
WHo knows? Maybe you have some sort of hearing anomaly. My ADAMs and JBLs clearly reveal to me any high end stridency. And of course, there's always NS-10's

If those ATCs really work for you then I guess you should save your pennies. This is High End after all.

-R
Old 30th September 2012
  #44
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Or you could save one year's salary and get a pair of Landmark speakers ;-)
Old 30th September 2012
  #45
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DaVogi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
have you considered that your friend with the big atc-system maybe also has the better sounding room in terms of acoustics?

undamped early reflections and too much room decay can mask lots of small details.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️
have you considered that your friend with the big atc-system maybe also has the better sounding room in terms of acoustics?

undamped early reflections and too much room decay can mask lots of small details.
Yes, and this issue has been addressed before I have wrote it 10 times now I think lol we tested my speakers in his own room cause they were easier to transport , so that we make sure that it was not the room which was the culprit

If you don't believe me please do try it, and you will see if this is a joke or it it's a kind of serious matter
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #47
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
why not work with your freind to track what is in your mix approach that can lead to the problems.

maybe see if you can also track the issue on a spectrum analiser.
your only going to end up altering the way you do things in any case.
even if you got the best speakers in the world.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #48
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser ➑️
why not work with your freind to track what is in your mix approach that can lead to the problems.

maybe see if you can also track the issue on a spectrum analiser.
your only going to end up altering the way you do things in any case.
even if you got the best speakers in the world.
It's actually not about the mix approach , I actually can hear the harshness and piercing stuff very clearly, in some mixes they are mils but still you can clearly hear them.

When you correct the stuff and find ways to keep the clarity and energy while removing the nastiness, bam , sounds good on my own systems and doesn't hurt my ears neither on club sounds at high spl.

Easy and simple.

On my focals for example YOU DON'T HEAR THE HARSHNESS AT ALL, it's just smooth and un-existant that's why i'm hating them so much.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #49
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by alecsribet ➑️
It's actually not about the mix approach , I actually can hear the harshness and piercing stuff very clearly, in some mixes they are mils but still you can clearly hear them.

When you correct the stuff and find ways to keep the clarity and energy while removing the nastiness, bam , sounds good on my own systems and doesn't hurt my ears neither on club sounds at high spl.

Easy and simple.

On my focals for example YOU DON'T HEAR THE HARSHNESS AT ALL, it's just smooth and un-existant that's why i'm hating them so much.
yes I undersand.. but what I meant was, if you take the speakers out of the equasion completely,
you'll end up with a different approach to your mixing.

so if you can define where the source of the problem might be happening in the mix and identify it through (other) means you might find some useful ways to stop the problem occuring in the first place.

for example, I think the issue has a good bit to do with the speed and power of the transients which digital can render.
whereas, analog tape and gear was good at supressing those. That imo gave a better overall signal to deal with.
so that's why I try to get rid of transients unless I need them. for that I use Eiosis E2 transienter and I also like Airwindows phase nudger.

I'm sure there are others too.

of course you could get some speakers which show up what you want, but you still will probably end up having to deal with the problem in some fashion within your mix. knowing what that might be could be worth some investigation.
Old 30th September 2012
  #50
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Not sure what the problem is. You hear the detail you want on ATC but not on what you have? Sell your stuff and buy ATC. If you can't afford the expensive ones see if the cheaper ones do the trick for you. If they don't, continue trying out others. Noone can do this for you. Thousands of hits have been mixed on lesser speakers than ATC, so other mixers obviously have methods to deal with the "problem"... It's not the speakers but your personal preferences which matter here.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WunderBro Flo ➑️
Not sure what the problem is. You hear the detail you want on ATC but not on what you have? Sell your stuff and buy ATC. If you can't afford the expensive ones see if the cheaper ones do the trick for you. If they don't, continue trying out others. Noone can do this for you. Thousands of hits have been mixed on lesser speakers than ATC, so other mixers obviously have methods to deal with the "problem"... It's not the speakers but your personal preferences which matter here.
By the way I hear people covering their ears when some tracks play in the cub or moving out of the dancefloor or having funny expressions on their faces ... when some tracks play ... while some other tracks (VERY RARE) sound perfectly fine on those systems and on loud audio systems is not a matter of making hits or not.... it clearly has nothing to do with my personal preference neither.

It's about most of people even in the top notch mixers/mastering engineers leaving those harsh turds ... while A VERY FEW seem to have the way to correct those things... maybe because their speakers reveal those flaws like the ATC does.

I don't think it's about being able to fix the problem"WHICH MOST OF TOP ENGINEERS SHOULD DO" but it's about actually being able to HEAR that there's a mistake.

If you mix on my twins you'll think that there are no harsh frequencies at all as those pieces of c"""p smooth out all the harshness and doesn't show piercing and annoying sibilances at all.

I think if people were able to hear those problems, they would fix it ... but by hearing most of the mixes of today ... I think that there's a problem...

I also think that it should be very important for mixers to solve these problems as people are less likely to listen to an amazing piece of music if it's harsh, piercing and hurting their ears.


But you are right I think I should sell my stuff and get the ATC
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #52
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
But where is the problem for you? You lready know that you hear what you want to hear on ATCs so go and get ATCs! As the sharp/piercing aspect of such transients are most probably being reproduced mainly by ATCs tweeters, chances are that the smaller 2 way systems that ATC offers will reproduce them equally well as the big expensive ATC systems...try some out and if they serve the purpose, sell your two sets and use the money to get one ATC set, it wonΒ΄t coast you anything.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #53
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WunderBro Flo ➑️
But where is the problem for you? You lready know that you hear what you want to hear on ATCs so go and get ATCs! As the sharp/piercing aspect of such transients are most probably being reproduced mainly by ATCs tweeters, chances are that the smaller 2 way systems that ATC offers will reproduce them equally well as the big expensive ATC systems...try some out and if they serve the purpose, sell your two sets and use the money to get one ATC set, it wonΒ΄t coast you anything.
The problem is why are professional monitor speaker makers create speakers that don't reveal harsh frequencies and ear piercing stuff ...those tools are supposed to be TOOLS for creating and troubleshooting stuff ... I am quite stunned by how they make speakers that soften ear piercing artifacts

The manufacturers don't realize that they might be one of the important causes of ear piercing mixes out there and i'm just shouting it out and trying to make people realize....and hopefully I hope people won't do the same mistake that I did.

I fill follow your advice you are right , i'll get the little ones and check how things goes

I have hear of the Unity speakers as well , people told me that those speakers spoke the truth, so i'll have to try them out
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #54
Gear Addict
 
msflsim's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hey alecsribet, im trying to picture that ear piercing sound that you are mentioning. I have the K&H o300 as well.

Would you mind posting some of the files/mixes that exhibit the harshness in the top end you are referring to? I am dead curious to know exactly what you mean.
You dont have to post the whole song etc. maybe just a snippet and you could point out the offending bit.

What do you say? Little experiment?

Thanks!
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #55
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by msflsim ➑️
Hey alecsribet, im trying to picture that ear piercing sound that you are mentioning. I have the K&H o300 as well.

Would you mind posting some of the files/mixes that exhibit the harshness in the top end you are referring to? I am dead curious to know exactly what you mean.
You dont have to post the whole song etc. maybe just a snippet and you could point out the offending bit.

What do you say? Little experiment?

Thanks!
Yes yes yes!!!! :D that sounds perfect, thanks for your constructive participation

Please get those tracks in WAV or FLAC, as mp3 make things sound less harsh , same for youtube.



Tiesto Sneaky Sound_System - I Will Be Here (Wolfgang Gartner remix) ...around 2:08 the singer employs lots of sss ss ssss ssss which don't sound good in the clubs.


Lionel Ritchie - Zoomin' ... harsh sounding and aggressive accentuated sibilances.

"Oasis" Morning glory album ... track one ... horrible sibilances and the track itself is very harsh and ear piercing.

"Faithless - Crazy English Summer" ... aggressive SSSSSSSS


"The best of Sade" Album ... "Smooth operator" .... 0.56 approximately ... when she says "no plaCCCEEE for beginners .... " lots of annoying piercing frequencies as she continues with her phrase.

"08. Nelly Furtado - Say It Right" 1:30 .... I can SSAAYYY SSAYYYYY.

Lenny Kravitz - I Belong To You ... chorus sounds aggressive

Cardigans - Erase and rewind .... harsh at loud volumes

neon indian - polish girl .... harsh all over

Spiritchaser - Not Far (Original Mix) ... harssshhh sounding

Pirupa - Clarity Of Love (Original Mix) .... harrrrshhhhhhh




While some other tracks like:

1.sascha funke - mango

2.dominik_eulberg-der_tanz_der_gluehwuermchen_(kollektiv_turmstrasse._dirt_glow__remix)

3.audiofly and paul harris-miscalate(original mix)

4. Egbert - Open


... sound AMAZING on loud systems and zero harshness or aggressive highs.... no one covering the ears.




Now tell me if the tracks in the HARSH track selection sound alarmingly harsh on your system ?

Again thanks for participating
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #56
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➑️
Pelonis 4288's. They're the only speakers I've heard that have no resonances anywhere, none.
Other speakers are revealing too, but they have their own resonances ... Pelonis are eerily flat, a word that gets bandied about a lot but these boxes have it. Makes decisionmaking extremely fast and intuitive.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio X ➑️
Any bass reflex or ported speaker box will have resonance. That's inherent in their design and the function of the port (helmholtz resonator).


Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➑️
Absolutely true, but...

Gregory Scott - ubk
But what? There IS resonance and it's being processed out. That can happen with ANY speaker. It's called a graphic eq and isn't recommended as a first resort.

Mitigate

You know if that wasn't pointed out, there would be a hundred kids telling other kids that those ported speakers don't resonate.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #57
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanmisner ➑️
But what? There IS resonance and it's being processed out. That can happen with ANY speaker. It's called a graphic eq and isn't recommended as a first resort.

Mitigate
INDEED
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by alecsribet ➑️
The problem is why are professional monitor speaker makers create speakers that don't reveal harsh frequencies and ear piercing stuff ...those tools are supposed to be TOOLS for creating and troubleshooting stuff ... I am quite stunned by how they make speakers that soften ear piercing artifacts

The manufacturers don't realize that they might be one of the important causes of ear piercing mixes out there and i'm just shouting it out and trying to make people realize....and hopefully I hope people won't do the same mistake that I did.
Alec, you are effectively blaming Speakers (and the people who make them) for your own fixation on High Frequencies. In Psychology, this is known as .. Anthropomorphising. I wouldn't be so quick to discount this theory either ..

I think a lot of what you're hearing is a combination of poor engineering decisions COMBINED with poor mastering decisions on a lot of those Tracks (Plus older 16 Bit systems on some of the older ones) .. But then again, I'm not you, and I have NO IDEA what it is that you are ACTUALLY perceiving when you're mind is Focusing in on these offending frequencies ..

Btw, Mango by Sasha Funke .. A Gem that one .. Some of the other's (Tiesto and Sneaky) not so much ..
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #59
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Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
You are using two different pairs of pretty good monitors there, yet i hear what your saying and on first thought i would say it may not actually be the monitors that are causing the problem here.

Control room acoustic issues, and speaker positioning can dull down the overall presentation in your room. Also the quality of your DA converter feeding the speakers can also make quite a difference and some will reveal flaws more than others.

If you are confident that your room is properly tuned, and you have good DA converters then and only then would i suggest looking for a different monitors, especially an upgarde to something like the ATC's.

A cheaper alternative may be a small set of Adams like the A5x or A7x, they have a harsher hi frequency presentation which may fill the gap your looking for.

Old 1st October 2012
  #60
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latestflavor's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
so just to clarify, the issue is that a brute loud club soundsystem in a ****ty environment at loud levels sounds like crap? not on proper monitors or regular speakers?

if so maybe we should re-title the thread as: how to mix for shrill earsplitting peaky club playback systems?

btw, is it any club in particular, possibly one with a deaf owner that has an unfortunate hearing problem who cranks the eq to compensate?

because my gut feeling is the club or the owner needs to change, not the other way around.
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