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CLA console channel labels - His 48 tracks alignment
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #61
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➑️
whats wrong to take a look at the ingredients of a great chef? you still wont be a great chef, but inspiration is half the cooking.
Looking at a great chef's spice rack once tells you nothing.

You need to look over and over.


The biggest issue is if you go and study under the chef of how to mix the seasonings together in his exact formula so that you can do it identically to him, you're screwed when you get back to your place and you dont have access to the same meat he gets which is pre-seasoned or vice versa.


The most difficult thing in audio is comparing red delicious apples to red delicious apples. Sometimes we compare them to oranges, sometimes pears, some idiots compare to steak. Then after years, we get to the point where we're comparing to green apples, or even Macintosh, and then one day we compare to a red apple only to find that one was off the tree and one was frozen for a month.


I don't think that there is anything more valuable than learning from what someone else has done. I think this is true for learning from a master, or mid level or even learning what not to do from someone inexperienced.

The thing is you have to be honest with yourself about what it is that a piece of information is giving you and that extremely, exceptionally hard.

And, for all you know, CLA's magic EQ setting is actuallin in response to a room anomaly or hearing loss and it's always corrected in mastering. You may be copying a flaw.



There's a hilarious story of a manufacturer buying someone else's gear, cloning it and having it made cheaper in China. The thing is, the copy-ee had a QC issue and the copier ended up with an incorrectly wired power supply, which is now part of their design and mass produced in China and owned by a ton of GS members. Oops!


I think there can be value in seeing CLA's settings, but you have to know the precise context and the value is seeing patterns relative to what you do and what other people do.

If he's boosting 3dB at 12k shelving on the Manley and then cutting 2dB at 12k shelving on the SSL for the snare when the mic is a 57, what do you do to match that at your place?

It seems like a net difference of 1dB at 12k shelving, so boost 1dB at 12k shelving at your place.

The thing is, was his manley modified? Does his SSL have a failing power supply? Maybe the shift is not 1dB net. Why is he doing this, is it because he likes the snare brighter at 12k, or is he doing this for the phase shift that happens in each of the EQs and you decided long ago to use only linear phase EQs?


I'm 100% for examining what other people do, but you need to have quite a bit of experience to understand what you can actually take from what you see.

If there was any way I could know, I'd get in to detail on that, but it's too varied.

One thing you can get is what you said - inspiration - and idea for something to try and then evaluate the result. Like what happens if I boost 20k on a kick?

Personally, I think most people can make that stuff up on their own.

You can learn process. Does he subgroup all of his drums, or one for live drums one for samples? Does he compress them all together? Does he compress the samples to that they are dynamic or does he specifically not compress them so that they function as a form of parallel limiting?

What does he listen to first? Does he listen with all of the faders up the same? Does he not zero the board and listen starting from the last mix? When does he solo tracks?

When he gets a mix with 192 track how in the world does he know which track is playing which part? Yes things are laid out on the same faders, but when there are multiple guitars, how do you know which fader is responsible for which sound? Does he start listening by soloing to learn this or does he just move things and listen and re-learn his console as an instrument for every mix?


This is why my first question was what do you think can be learned by knowing where he lays out the tracks on the console? I can't think of anything, but that doesn't mean there's not something obvious that can be learned.


Here's another example. I was working on an album with a good budget, although I didn't know what it was. It allow us to hire a very expensive drummer. I knew what he was charging.

The guitar player wanted to know what the drummer was charging so that he knew what he should charge - which is flawed logic. For one, maybe the guitar player is actually more valuable than the drummer. His logic was that knowing how much they were paying the drummer told him how "deep their pockets are." That's wrong. Knowing how much they paid the drummer only tells you how much they paid the drummer. It doesn't tell you whether they blew 90% of the budget on the drummer or whether that's what they have for each player.


In most cases where you see someone's settings and say "that's what I should do" you will be flat out wrong and would have been better of doing what you'd have done instinctually.

Unfortunately, this may require specific experiences to understand.


Maybe people should swap mix templates to see how they don't really translate.
Old 1st October 2012
  #62
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nickelironsteel's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Well, Mike, the magic EQ setting doesnt exist, nor did anyone claim it to be magic, well except you perhaps. Thing is CLA has a lifetime of routine and has spent a lifetime of boiling things down (to carry on with the cooking theme ) to the essence, which we can all learn from. There must be a reason Dr Luke is raving about Chris's SSL Presets and how he loves them, dont it?
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #63
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Ward Pike's Avatar
 
15 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➑️
Well, Mike, the magic EQ setting doesnt exist, nor did anyone claim it to be magic, well except you perhaps. Thing is CLA has a lifetime of routine and has spent a lifetime of boiling things down (to carry on with the cooking theme ) to the essence, which we can all learn from. There must be a reason Dr Luke is raving about Chris's SSL Presets and how he loves them, dont it?
The more you speak with the voice of reason, the more certain individuals will argue with you. You know this, right?
Old 2nd October 2012
  #64
Gear Maniac
 
atticmike's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The single best way to become a better writer is to simply read.
Old 2nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #65
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➑️
Well, Mike, the magic EQ setting doesnt exist, nor did anyone claim it to be magic, well except you perhaps. Thing is CLA has a lifetime of routine and has spent a lifetime of boiling things down (to carry on with the cooking theme ) to the essence, which we can all learn from. There must be a reason Dr Luke is raving about Chris's SSL Presets and how he loves them, dont it?
Yes, that's precisely what I said. There's a magic EQ setting.

I must have mis understood the photo. I thought it was of hardware that was set specifically for whatever use he was using it for rather than a picture of a plugin where he's specified what he'd want as a universal starting point.

I wonder whether he was thinking in terms of what's needed for the sound quality of the recordings he gets or the sound quality of the recordings he things they're going to be using them on. Maybe it's both if that's possible.
Old 2nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #66
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➑️
Well, Mike, the magic EQ setting doesnt exist, nor did anyone claim it to be magic, well except you perhaps. Thing is CLA has a lifetime of routine and has spent a lifetime of boiling things down (to carry on with the cooking theme ) to the essence, which we can all learn from. There must be a reason Dr Luke is raving about Chris's SSL Presets and how he loves them, dont it?
Are you comparing our ability to "boil things down" from looking at a photo to Chris's ability to "boil things down" over his life time?

It sounds like it.
Old 2nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #67
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nickelironsteel's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike ➑️
The more you speak with the voice of reason, the more certain individuals will argue with you. You know this, right?
It appears I just found out
Old 2nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #68
Gear Maniac
 
atticmike's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey ➑️
Yes, that's precisely what I said. There's a magic EQ setting.

I must have mis understood the photo. I thought it was of hardware that was set specifically for whatever use he was using it for rather than a picture of a plugin where he's specified what he'd want as a universal starting point.

I wonder whether he was thinking in terms of what's needed for the sound quality of the recordings he gets or the sound quality of the recordings he things they're going to be using them on. Maybe it's both if that's possible.
I think figuring out what he uses in his rack overall is a very good start point to develop your own skills from. None of what he used in that ominous Green Day mix will probably fit 100% to your average rock mix since you don't know what mics they used, what room, what pres, what post processing and most importantly you won't end up with the same musician's performance on either drums, guitar or whatever. But, as I said, it is a good start point to observe and do your own research with it and maybe develop something for you out of it. A good author absorbs other authors's works and implements some of it in his own style of writing.

I've pretty much photoshopped out all the settings he used in several mixes and will put them on paper within the next couple of days.

If anyone is really interested in throwing a glance at the specs themselves, just holler. Otherwise this feels like people are gonna intriguingly observe the settings I've posted and yet have talked till they were blue in the face about how useless this all was...
Old 2nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #69
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atticmike ➑️
I think figuring out what he uses in his rack overall is a very good start point to develop your own skills from. None of what he used in that ominous Green Day mix will probably fit 100% to your average rock mix since you don't know what mics they used, what room, what pres, what post processing and most importantly you won't end up with the same musician's performance on either drums, guitar or whatever. But, as I said, it is a good start point to observe and do your own research with it and maybe develop something for you out of it. A good author absorbs other authors's works and implements some of it in his own style of writing.
That's well put and is a fair measure of what's possibile within a thread like this. Personally, there's hardly a thing that Mike Caffery has said that I find myself in disagreement with. I don't feel there's any need to defend a perceived "position", and the fact that someone is playing Devil's Advocate makes for a more interesting and balanced discussion all-round.

Mixing with a lot of outboard is a lot like hitting a moving target, and always has been. Ask anyone who's been working at it for a while. And I'm pretty sure Mike has. Most of CLA's settings, Techniques and Choices are no more than a Kick-Off Point from which you'd keep experimenting further. And while info might be worth noting, some things will be more significant to some in the crowd, while other things will be more significant to others ...

Many of CLA's techniques could be idiosyncratic to him, and not worth noting at all. What works for him may not work for you. If you fall into devoting too much time following the man's methods too slavishly, you risk a loss of perspective. And without perspective, how can you ever hope to develop YOUR OWN sound ?? I've no intention of stomping on the discussion. It's all in the interest of balance. Carry On
Old 3rd October 2012 | Show parent
  #70
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atticmike ➑️
I think figuring out what he uses in his rack overall is a very good start point to develop your own skills from. None of what he used in that ominous Green Day mix will probably fit 100% to your average rock mix since you don't know what mics they used, what room, what pres, what post processing and most importantly you won't end up with the same musician's performance on either drums, guitar or whatever. But, as I said, it is a good start point to observe and do your own research with it and maybe develop something for you out of it. A good author absorbs other authors's works and implements some of it in his own style of writing.

I've pretty much photoshopped out all the settings he used in several mixes and will put them on paper within the next couple of days.

If anyone is really interested in throwing a glance at the specs themselves, just holler. Otherwise this feels like people are gonna intriguingly observe the settings I've posted and yet have talked till they were blue in the face about how useless this all was...
I can't think of a way in which knowing what he uses is his rack could help me in away, but if there is, I'd like to know it. I know that may sound sarcastic, but it's not. I get plenty of opportunities to see this kind of thing and I don't know how to get anything valuable from it.

I think there's an enormous amount to learn from Chris and thing things he does. One thing I'd find valuable is know what the instructions are that he gives his assistants for prepping mixes.

If he gets a track with 4 kick mics, does he say sum them as is to one track on the Sony? Does he say sum them then EQ it until it sounds good, then print it? Does he say EQ each then sum? Does he want them to solo each kick and decide which to include.

Global instructions to assistants are a summary of all of his years of experience that say this is what all incoming sessions need. That's where the insight is.

An EQ in the rack labeled snare doesn't tell you if it's patched in or where it's patched in. If it's set to boost 10k, you don't know whether it's set that way for that day or always set that way.

There are things that can be learned, but you need to be careful about what you base your conclusions on.


Take Brauer's set up. He uses tones to set up his busses and can tell you precisely what EQ he's applying before he starts mixing. Does that mean that he will not make any cuts on an individual channel that counter where he's boosted at the buss?

Does how he pre-EQs at the buss tell you how he's going to EQ? All it tells you is that's how he wants that particular buss to change things and it may be about EQing the tone of that particular compressor. So when you don't have the same gear and you copy his EQ settings with a different EQ after a different compressor, you think "I'm doing what Brauer does" and the reality is you're changing the tone differently with a different compressor and then EQing it differently with a different EQ. The odds of it being the same thing have to be very close to zero.

Assuming you care, be careful not to mislead yourself.
Old 3rd October 2012 | Show parent
  #71
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_subsonic ➑️
That's well put and is a fair measure of what's possibile within a thread like this. Personally, there's hardly a thing that Mike Caffery has said that I find myself in disagreement with. I don't feel there's any need to defend a perceived "position", and the fact that someone is playing Devil's Advocate makes for a more interesting and balanced discussion all-round.

Mixing with a lot of outboard is a lot like hitting a moving target, and always has been. Ask anyone who's been working at it for a while. And I'm pretty sure Mike has. Most of CLA's settings, Techniques and Choices are no more than a Kick-Off Point from which you'd keep experimenting further. And while info might be worth noting, some things will be more significant to some in the crowd, while other things will be more significant to others ...

Many of CLA's techniques could be idiosyncratic to him, and not worth noting at all. What works for him may not work for you. If you fall into devoting too much time following the man's methods too slavishly, you risk a loss of perspective. And without perspective, how can you ever hope to develop YOUR OWN sound ?? I've no intention of stomping on the discussion. It's all in the interest of balance. Carry On
Part of what you are saying is exactly my point - the second paragraph.

I think that CLA's techniques are not idiosyncratic to him, I think he's developed a way of listening and reacting that works for a wide range of music, or if you want to get pick the range of music that's sent to him. I think the techniques are dictated by the music and that if we learn his techniques we can make similar choices and get similar results - within the scope of our "ears".

My point is that boosting 10k on a kick drum, or the magical cut 400 is not a technique. Not sololing, or which faders you choose to push up first is a technique. Do you mix all of the instruments and then ride the vocal or do you put up the drums, ride/automate the vocal and then pull up the rest of the tracks to where they fit and never mask the vocal.

Those are techniques and you can't get them from looking at settings on gear in a rack.

Does he buss his drums and bass to a compressor together before the stereo buss or is the first time they interact while passing through a compressor at the stereo buss? That's a principle that we can experiment with applying.

I guarantee you Chris is not going to cut 400 on a kick where 400 has already been cut because that's how his EQ in the rack is set.

Or if by some crazy chance he does that, then I'm sure we'll find that he's got another with 400 boosted by the same amount and is using fader balance to shape the kick rather than EQ.
Old 3rd October 2012 | Show parent
  #72
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
He's been doing this since the early 80's.

I bet a lot of his techniques draw upon and evolved from techniques he learned from working with all those artist right from the get go.

DAWs and plug-ins were probably more understood as duh and, well, I'll keep it clean...
Old 3rd October 2012
  #73
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nickelironsteel's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
afaik its the samples that get the manley and the distressor treatment to breathe some life into it. kick is console and/or neve 2264.

but then again, this man is so fast, he adjusts to whatever the song needs, before you could even take notes. he's like a drummer rocking the studio
Old 3rd October 2012 | Show parent
  #74
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➑️
afaik its the samples that get the manley and the distressor treatment to breathe some life into it. kick is console and/or neve 2264.
Good to know ..
Old 6th December 2012
  #75
Gear Maniac
 
atticmike's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Just got Chris's Yamaha pc2002 poweramp for powering my original NS10 pair and I gotta say, that thing is clean as **** and yet yields a massive headroom in terms of amplification and how low you can already push the amp.

Old 6th December 2012
  #76
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chrisjones's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atticmike ➑️
Just got Chris's Yamaha pc2002 poweramp for powering my original NS10 pair and I gotta say, that thing is clean as **** and yet yields a massive headroom in terms of amplification and how low you can already push the amp.

I have one too for my ns10's, it broke down 3 months ago. Do you have the schematics? But wow this thing is heavy!
Old 6th December 2012 | Show parent
  #77
LEF
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I've always loved the Yamaha amps. I have 8x PD2500 for my mains and wouldn't want anything else.
Old 6th December 2012 | Show parent
  #78
Gear Maniac
 
atticmike's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjones ➑️
I have one too for my ns10's, it broke down 3 months ago. Do you have the schematics? But wow this thing is heavy!
I do have them but on paper. I'd have to scan and send them to you though. They're proper amps and easy to fix if you don't beat them with a bat.
Old 7th December 2012 | Show parent
  #79
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chrisjones's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atticmike ➑️
I do have them but on paper. I'd have to scan and send them to you though. They're proper amps and easy to fix if you don't beat them with a bat.
It would be great, and I would be grateful! :D But you don't actually have to if it's to much of an effort. We're all busy.

I heard something pop/crack inside and I could see some some smoke coming from the amp. I'm using/borrowing a Crown power amp right now but I miss matching the yammi with the yammies.

Sorry for being off topic... My last post about the Yamaha's.
Old 10th December 2012
  #80
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➑️
afaik its the samples that get the manley and the distressor treatment to breathe some life into it. kick is console and/or neve 2264.

but then again, this man is so fast, he adjusts to whatever the song needs, before you could even take notes. he's like a drummer rocking the studio
CLA mixed a project I engineered recently and remember the snare sample being crushed through the distressor.

Also, he works very fast. Some of the tracks took him only 4-5 hours (not counting his assistants prep time of course)

The last record he mixed that I engineered on he used much of the same outboard gear.

2 bus was the focusrite red 3, ld vocal was the blue stripe rev A, guitar channel strip settings were the same as his waves ssl plugin preset.

He doesn't care at all if you know exactly what he's doing. It's all about having good ears
Old 31st July 2013 | Show parent
  #81
Mho
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atticmike ➑️

I've pretty much photoshopped out all the settings he used in several mixes and will put them on paper within the next couple of days.

If anyone is really interested in throwing a glance at the specs themselves, just holler. Otherwise this feels like people are gonna intriguingly observe the settings I've posted and yet have talked till they were blue in the face about how useless this all was...
Hi Mike! I was re-reading this great post. Would it be too much if I ask for those photoshopped settings? I would love to keep the debate going. Thanks in advance!!!!
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