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CLA console channel labels - His 48 tracks alignment
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➡️
"I cannot lie; I use a 3348. I have four of them just in case one breaks down, and I’ve bought every blank reel of tape on the planet that I could find so far.
haha I can attest to that - I'm in the process of sending him a couple of unused old reels I found when clearing out my stuff at my parents' house, came from Abbey Road about 10 years ago!
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #32
Pastor Obviedo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
haha I can attest to that - I'm in the process of sending him a couple of unused old reels I found when clearing out my stuff at my parents' house, came from Abbey Road about 10 years ago!
Maybe they need to be baked.
Old 18th September 2012
  #33
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🎧 10 years
so he's hitting the tape at close to zero dB outside of pro tools?

as far as the line trim is concerned, he doesn't seem to add any more level but rather take a little bit away:

Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Obviedo ➡️
Maybe they need to be baked.
wouldn't have thought so...it wasn't tape from the 80s!
Old 18th September 2012
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➡️
actually, i think, i will get off of this forum.
You said something about the Manley treatment of kicks and snares I'd love to know more about this. When I met him this year he said that he had stopped using the shadow hills as much as last year and has been using the deaks compressor alot recently. He than said that the focusrite was still his favorite.
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #36
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwrecordings ➡️
You said something about the Manley treatment of kicks and snares I'd love to know more about this. When I met him this year he said that he had stopped using the shadow hills as much as last year and has been using the deaks compressor alot recently. He than said that the focusrite was still his favorite.
I'm also interested to know about the Manleys a bit more.
I've noticed in a video that his settings for the one on top was [email protected] hz, and [email protected] (Kick??)
The other one was [email protected] and 8.5 [email protected] (Snare??)
Old 18th September 2012
  #37
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I hope that i can answer this question without getting insulted again by fellow gearslutz.

Top Manley - setting stays the same


Bottom Manley - settings vary





if anyone has got this manley enhanced pultec eqp and waves q-clone, i would really appreciate those 4 captures, cheers.
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwrecordings ➡️
You said something about the Manley treatment of kicks and snares I'd love to know more about this. When I met him this year he said that he had stopped using the shadow hills as much as last year and has been using the deaks compressor alot recently. He than said that the focusrite was still his favorite.
what is a deaks compressor?
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #39
Mho
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc Sabourin ➡️
I'm also interested to know about the Manleys a bit more.
I've noticed in a video that his settings for the one on top was [email protected] hz, and [email protected] (Kick??)
The other one was [email protected] and 8.5 [email protected] (Snare??)

He uses the manleys in adition to the desk eq? I mean, [email protected] plus boost at 8k on the ssl?
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #40
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mho ➡️
He uses the manleys in adition to the desk eq? I mean, [email protected] plus boost at 8k on the ssl?
Well he said that the Manleys were for Kick and Snare. It is my understanding that he boosts 50hz on the desk and around 8k and cuts 400-800. I've tried it once with a pultec at boosting 2k, then with SSL boosting 8k, and my kick wasn't sounding like his.

Maybe for that project he only boosted at 2k on the Manley and didn't use the SSL.
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➡️
I hope that i can answer this question without getting insulted again by fellow gearslutz.

Top Manley - setting stays the same


Bottom Manley - settings vary





if anyone has got this manley enhanced pultec eqp and waves q-clone, i would really appreciate those 4 captures, cheers.
Thanks
Old 18th September 2012
  #42
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🎧 15 years
I love how CLA compares his mixing with "only" 48 tracks to the Beatles using 4 tracks and the decisions that it forces you to make.
Old 18th September 2012
  #43
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🎧 10 years
Back to my question / trying to elucidate a little better. So he's hitting the SSL at about 15 dBu and the sony at close to zero?
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #44
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsowa ➡️
I love how CLA compares his mixing with "only" 48 tracks to the Beatles using 4 tracks and the decisions that it forces you to make.
yea i thought thats funny as well. its like when you treat each channel with plugins then route them all to stereo channels, but his auxes are the ssl.
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atticmike ➡️
Back to my question / trying to elucidate a little better. So he's hitting the SSL at about 15 dBu and the sony at close to zero?
Well, with all the over blown 200 plus track counts these days, it's almost a fair comparison.
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #46
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🎧 10 years
nickelironsteel wrote "whats more interesting is how he pans the individual instruments though"

Please share an example I would be curious to see his panning.

THanks for the info
Geoff
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #47
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by foge ➡️
nickelironsteel wrote "whats more interesting is how he pans the individual instruments though"

Please share an example I would be curious to see his panning.

THanks for the info
Geoff
That's easy, LCR
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #48
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc Sabourin ➡️
Well he said that the Manleys were for Kick and Snare. It is my understanding that he boosts 50hz on the desk and around 8k and cuts 400-800. I've tried it once with a pultec at boosting 2k, then with SSL boosting 8k, and my kick wasn't sounding like his.

Maybe for that project he only boosted at 2k on the Manley and didn't use the SSL.
Although I love Gearslutz and am addicted (as with many others) to reading about discussions on gear and how to use it, I do think you have to use the forum in a particular way. Someone like CLA would have absorbed years of experience and would certainly adapt things like eq to whatever he's working with. It's surely no surprise that an eq setting that he's used either on individual drums or a drum buss should sound different when you use it, so many variables go into creating a sound. Take a multitude of things on board and regurgitate it where applicable should be the mantra! I've loved reading Tchad Blakes comments on drum sounds for instance and I feel so much better about recording drums in a small, dead space. Also the use of distortion to get the sound he wants. Gearslutz and the people who contribute is a goldmine of knowledge but ultimately it's the way you use that knowledge, not them.

Steve
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaffa ➡️
Although I love Gearslutz and am addicted (as with many others) to reading about discussions on gear and how to use it, I do think you have to use the forum in a particular way. Someone like CLA would have absorbed years of experience and would certainly adapt things like eq to whatever he's working with. It's surely no surprise that an eq setting that he's used either on individual drums or a drum buss should sound different when you use it, so many variables go into creating a sound. Take a multitude of things on board and regurgitate it where applicable should be the mantra! I've loved reading Tchad Blakes comments on drum sounds for instance and I feel so much better about recording drums in a small, dead space. Also the use of distortion to get the sound he wants. Gearslutz and the people who contribute is a goldmine of knowledge but ultimately it's the way you use that knowledge, not them.

Steve
this. all settings are just for amusement and starting points to think. i like seeind the sos magazine plugin screenshots btw but its the context they were used it that matters and how they helped the song.
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #50
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Aaah, Ferget about it. Keep it coming Nickel. I'm by no means a CLA fanboy, but there is no denying he is a KickAss Rock'nRoll Mixer. So, much Respect is due to the Guy. His Pensado interview was very illuminating. He has a very competitive attitude. He has developed his Workflow into something of an Art, in that it's a system that works exclusively for him. Yet there's a lot to learn from that process ..

This is actually one of the more interesting CLA threads I've seen on GS. There's nothing like a bit of Hard Data. There is actually a fair bit of info here, and it's looking like a good central thread for examining CLA's working methods.

Speaking of which, is anyone clear on the process for how projects are transferred from ProTools onto the Sony 3348? Is it a Digital Transfer from PT onto the 3348, or is he Bussing/Amplifying through the console? I'd also assume thats where he's spanking all of the Tracks with a little bit of L1 on the way into the 3348 (??)

His 3348 is still the original 16Bit machine with the 16Bit I/O cards, not the later 3348HR, correct? Anyone knowledgeable about the old 3348's in here? Were the I/O cards an old Apogee design with the old Soft-Limiting circuit? That might explain why he likes to peg up to the ceiling on the 3348 .. Either that, or he's using ALL of those precious 16Bits ..

I might be able to find a few more things to add if I can find them. It will be interesting to try and ascertain which pieces of his outboard gear that are staying on fixed settings, and which bits of gear are being tweaked. That's the only caveat here in examining his settings. You might see photos of some gear used on his sessions which are always being tweaked differently. I've seen a different base template for his 48 Track channel assignment than the one here, although I think it's still pretty close to this one ..

I'm pretty sure most of his outboard comps are still working on fixed settings. He may be tweaking his MixBuss chain a little but I'm pretty sure that's kinda fixed as well .. I remember reading in one of his interviews that he likes to use the SSL channel EQ and comps/gates very aggressively to shape the envelope and tone of each sound, but that a lot of his outboard choices were about broad textures that were found by hitting the sweet spot of each unit.

Bring it on Folks ..
Old 23rd September 2012
  #51
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Rick Carson's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_subsonic ➡️
Aaah, Ferget about it. Keep it coming Nickel. I'm by no means a CLA fanboy, but there is no denying he is a KickAss Rock'nRoll Mixer. So, much Respect is due to the Guy. His Pensado interview was very illuminating. He has a very competitive attitude, and has developed his Workflow into something of an Art ..

This is actually one of the more interesting CLA threads I've seen on GS. There's nothing like a bit of Hard Data. There is actually a fair bit of info here, and it's looking like a good central thread for examining CLA's working methods.

Speaking of which, is anyone clear on the process for how projects are transferred from ProTools onto the Sony 3348? Is it a Digital Transfer from PT onto the 3348, or is he Bussing/Amplifying through the console? I'd also assume thats where he's spanking all of the Tracks with a little bit of L1 on the way into the 3348 (??)

His 3348 is still the original 16Bit machine with the 16Bit I/O cards, not the later 3348HR, correct? Anyone knowledgeable about the old 3348's in here? Were the I/O cards an old Apogee design with the old Soft-Limiting circuit? That might explain why he likes to peg up to the ceiling on the 3348 .. Either that, or he's using ALL of those precious 16Bits ..

I might be able to find a few more things to add if I can find them. It will be interesting to try and ascertain which bits of gear he is using that are staying on fixed settings, and which bits of gear are being tweaked. That's the only caveat here in examining his settings. You might see photos of some gear used on his sessions which are always being tweaked differently. I've seen a different base template for his 48 Track channel assignment than the one here, although I think it's still pretty close to this one ..

I'm pretty sure most of his outboard comps are still working on fixed settings. He may be tweaking his MixBuss chain a little but I'm pretty sure that's kinda fixed as well .. I remember reading in one of his interviews that he likes to use the SSL channel EQ and comps/gates very aggressively to shape the envelope and tone of each sound, but that a lot of his outboard choices were about broad textures that were found by hitting the sweet spot of each unit.

Bring it on Folks ..
I like your attitude!
Old 23rd September 2012 | Show parent
  #52
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Ward Pike's Avatar
 
15 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
First of all, for what I am about to write, I am hopeful I don't come across as critical or rude. I'm a big fan of CLA's fantastic mixing work and can definitely learn from the gentleman.

So, I've been listening to some Green Day with my sons lately, stuff that CLA mixed. The consistency in each drum hit and sound is actually creeping me out a bit.

It's like every single kick beat and snare hit and tom hit has exactly the same sound, exactly the same level and decay. Is this because CLA goes into each drum track in PT and normalizes each hit to the exact same level and then after transferring to 3348, runs each track into the SSL with the same 1176s and because each hit is at the exact same level they all sound the same? Or is sample replacement being used?

The variation in sound from a different level in almost every hit from a normal drummer is what gives that slightly varying sound that you can't get from sample replacement...hence the appeal in not using that.

I'm just curious.
Old 23rd September 2012
  #53
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atticmike ➡️
Howdy fellas,

Without wanting to hear any more mocking or copy cat allegations, I'd love to know what Chris Lord Alge's channels are labeled after from the very left to the far right in order to get a sense on how he's putting his mix together and learn something new, coupled with a few videos he shared on webz.

I'd hugely appreciate it if anyone had information about that (former techs, assistants, clients etc).

Mike
I just saw a list somewhere. From L-R I think the first 4 are delay returns, the percussion, then guitars then vocals then drums and the reverb returns. I don't remember where he put bass.

I'm curious how you think knowing where he lays out his tracks helps you.
Old 23rd September 2012 | Show parent
  #54
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike ➡️
First of all, for what I am about to write, I am hopeful I don't come across as critical or rude. I'm a big fan of CLA's fantastic mixing work and can definitely learn from the gentleman.

So, I've been listening to some Green Day with my sons lately, stuff that CLA mixed. The consistency in each drum hit and sound is actually creeping me out a bit.

It's like every single kick beat and snare hit and tom hit has exactly the same sound, exactly the same level and decay. Is this because CLA goes into each drum track in PT and normalizes each hit to the exact same level and then after transferring to 3348, runs each track into the SSL with the same 1176s and because each hit is at the exact same level they all sound the same? Or is sample replacement being used?

The variation in sound from a different level in almost every hit from a normal drummer is what gives that slightly varying sound that you can't get from sample replacement...hence the appeal in not using that.

I'm just curious.
Variation isn't appropriate for a lot of current styles of music. Plus, with all the compression happening a little variation can change the balances of other things.

Keep in mind that the sound of a CLA mix is partly what he's given. You may be hearing the sound of a terrible drummer who's been fixed by looping a beat detected bar and dropping fills rather than taking the time to beat detect the entire track.

Or he's adding samples. Or he's gating first and compressing second in parallel which will allow you to turn a live performance into its own samples (in a sense).
Old 23rd September 2012 | Show parent
  #55
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Ward Pike's Avatar
 
15 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey ➡️
Variation isn't appropriate for a lot of current styles of music. Plus, with all the compression happening a little variation can change the balances of other things.

Keep in mind that the sound of a CLA mix is partly what he's given. You may be hearing the sound of a terrible drummer who's been fixed by looping a beat detected bar and dropping fills rather than taking the time to beat detect the entire track.

Or he's adding samples. Or he's gating first and compressing second in parallel which will allow you to turn a live performance into its own samples (in a sense).
Very good points, Mike. Give me Ian Paice any day. Especially on albums like Machine Head with the amazing Martin Birch capturing everything and mixing it perfectly.
Old 1st October 2012
  #56
Gear Maniac
 
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🎧 10 years
Just found a better picture of his settings:



Looks like especially for the snare, he pulls the signal in pre-cut (70hz lf) and eqed from the desk and adds an lf boost as well as 3k bell on the manley.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #57
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atticmike ➡️
Just found a better picture of his settings:



Looks like especially for the snare, he pulls the signal in pre-cut (70hz lf) and eqed from the desk and adds an lf boost as well as 3k bell on the pultec.
And when he mixes something I've tracked where I've already done that, is he going to do it again?

This is why the idea that you can learn anything from seeing the way someone has set something during a mix is a myth. The sole exception being if it's something you tracked and also mixed and you're comparing the two back to back.

You have no way to know if he uses that on every snare. You don't know if it's an insert or a send/return. You don't know if he summing top and bottom and even samples too when he sends to that.

Compression is even more extreme, because if you know that he's sending to a compressor that's set the same way every time, you don't know how much compression he's getting or if he's even getting any.

When you have extensive outboard gear you want to avoid recalls. They aren't a headache for him because he doesn't have to do them. The reason to avoid them is because they are extremely difficult to do right. Errors aside, if you stand in a slightly different place, you'll recall the get to a slightly different setting due to parallax. Plus old gear is finicky and a knob that has been moved and then moved back to the exact same setting may not give the same result.


So the way many people mix, and I'd be pretty shocked if he didn't do the same, is that you leave a compressor set to a fixed setting that never changes and you use the console to send and return to control the level.

Think about an 1176 and how you control the amount of compression - you do it through boosting/cutting the input/output. So if you left both set at their maximums, then how far you pushed the send fader would now function to control the input level and how high you set the return fader would control the output level. Noise might be an issue if you set them to their maximum positions, so they're probably not set that way, but the principle is still the same.


What this means is you will never know what was done by looking at someone's outboard gear settings even if they are set the same way every time.

In most cases they won't know what was done either, only what was done relative to other mixes.


Plus the presumption that what CLA needed to do EQ wise to the kick he was sent is the same thing you need to do with yours is going to be wrong so close to 100% of the time, you might as well just say "always".

Is he EQing Steve Jordan's floor tom kick in a small resonant room and you're EQing a Bohnam sized kick in a massive room with no resonanaces because the wall are too far away?

How many heads are on the kick? Was it EQ'd during tracking? Was it EQ'd properly during tracking?


My favorite is "I smashed the vocals with a compressor." Oh really? When I tracked it I had it running through 3 limiters and when it came out of my tracking path with a dynamic range of .5dB. Do you consider .5dB of compression smashing it?

When CLA smashes something with a compressor, is he saying that he checked the RMS levels before and after or is his saying the needles showed a lot of gain reduction because there's no connection between what a meter shows and compression. Meters show gain reduction not compression. They are different things.


If you think that you can learn something from looking at someone else's settings, here's what you need to do.

Take the best sounding mix you've ever done. Make a template and then run every other session you've ever done through that template and see if any of them sound at all like that best mix. The may sound interesting or even good, but they will not sound the same. Settings don't transfer that way.

Looking at a setting may give you an idea to try, but you can just as easily turn knobs randomly - which will actually teach you more.


If I was at his place, would I look at his settings? Yes. What would I get from that? I don't know it depends on what I see. Is every compressor set to the fastest or slowest attack? Are the set to the middle? If they're all set the same way, that's interesting - why? It really depends on what you see. The only thing you can copy is the principles, not the specifics.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #58
Gear Maniac
 
atticmike's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey ➡️
And when he mixes something I've tracked where I've already done that, is he going to do it again?

This is why the idea that you can learn anything from seeing the way someone has set something during a mix is a myth. The sole exception being if it's something you tracked and also mixed and you're comparing the two back to back.

You have no way to know if he uses that on every snare. You don't know if it's an insert or a send/return. You don't know if he summing top and bottom and even samples too when he sends to that.

Compression is even more extreme, because if you know that he's sending to a compressor that's set the same way every time, you don't know how much compression he's getting or if he's even getting any.

When you have extensive outboard gear you want to avoid recalls. They aren't a headache for him because he doesn't have to do them. The reason to avoid them is because they are extremely difficult to do right. Errors aside, if you stand in a slightly different place, you'll recall the get to a slightly different setting due to parallax. Plus old gear is finicky and a knob that has been moved and then moved back to the exact same setting may not give the same result.


So the way many people mix, and I'd be pretty shocked if he didn't do the same, is that you leave a compressor set to a fixed setting that never changes and you use the console to send and return to control the level.

Think about an 1176 and how you control the amount of compression - you do it through boosting/cutting the input/output. So if you left both set at their maximums, then how far you pushed the send fader would now function to control the input level and how high you set the return fader would control the output level. Noise might be an issue if you set them to their maximum positions, so they're probably not set that way, but the principle is still the same.


What this means is you will never know what was done by looking at someone's outboard gear settings even if they are set the same way every time.

In most cases they won't know what was done either, only what was done relative to other mixes.


Plus the presumption that what CLA needed to do EQ wise to the kick he was sent is the same thing you need to do with yours is going to be wrong so close to 100% of the time, you might as well just say "always".

Is he EQing Steve Jordan's floor tom kick in a small resonant room and you're EQing a Bohnam sized kick in a massive room with no resonanaces because the wall are too far away?

How many heads are on the kick? Was it EQ'd during tracking? Was it EQ'd properly during tracking?


My favorite is "I smashed the vocals with a compressor." Oh really? When I tracked it I had it running through 3 limiters and when it came out of my tracking path with a dynamic range of .5dB. Do you consider .5dB of compression smashing it?

When CLA smashes something with a compressor, is he saying that he checked the RMS levels before and after or is his saying the needles showed a lot of gain reduction because there's no connection between what a meter shows and compression. Meters show gain reduction not compression. They are different things.


If you think that you can learn something from looking at someone else's settings, here's what you need to do.

Take the best sounding mix you've ever done. Make a template and then run every other session you've ever done through that template and see if any of them sound at all like that best mix. The may sound interesting or even good, but they will not sound the same. Settings don't transfer that way.

Looking at a setting may give you an idea to try, but you can just as easily turn knobs randomly - which will actually teach you more.


If I was at his place, would I look at his settings? Yes. What would I get from that? I don't know it depends on what I see. Is every compressor set to the fastest or slowest attack? Are the set to the middle? If they're all set the same way, that's interesting - why? It really depends on what you see. The only thing you can copy is the principles, not the specifics.
You're right about what you're saying, every mix is different though. I know that there is no way that I could apply whatever he uses to a random mix

But there are bits and pieces of knowledge that's great if it sinks in and you can pull it out at the right culprit / situation.
Old 1st October 2012
  #59
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🎧 5 years
whats wrong to take a look at the ingredients of a great chef? you still wont be a great chef, but inspiration is half the cooking.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #60
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Ward Pike's Avatar
 
15 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➡️
whats wrong to take a look at the ingredients of a great chef? you still wont be a great chef, but inspiration is half the cooking.
Very well said. Good on ye!
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