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Holy grail preamp: most versatile?
Old 25th July 2013 | Show parent
  #121
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ztjangle ➑️
Choose your vocabulary with taste.
There are facts you don't know about. Radial approached Lundahl asking them to supply audio transformers for their units. Lundahl directed them to the official Canadian importer. Radial had some issues with that, since the rep happens to make high end DI boxes using Lundahls.
Radial also tested Cinemag units. Those are not cheap either.
Finally the decision was made to switch over to Eclipse.
We are talking about the super important "holy grail preamp" subject.

We don't have time for this sidetracking about if Radial called Lundahl or anybody else. We are on an important quest here. What are you talking about.
Old 25th July 2013
  #122
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🎧 10 years
has anyone compared the lola against some of the holly grail options already mentioned?
Old 25th July 2013 | Show parent
  #123
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Ward Pike's Avatar
 
15 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont ➑️
We are talking about the super important "holy grail preamp" subject.
SNIP
We are on an important quest here. SNIP
So, Tony, what do you consider to be the benchmark standard against which all microphone preamplifiers are measured?
Old 25th July 2013 | Show parent
  #124
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have been working on a new article and playing with Rascal Audios new TWO-V pre and WILL promise this pre WILL BE someones holy grail of pres.

Why, it is built like a tank feels like a tank and freakin sounds sweet!


And still, I say when we are talking about high end gear it come down to personal choice.

http://www.rascalaudio.net
Old 25th July 2013
  #125
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by YRLK ➑️
I have heard that for some reason, they're not always the best for distance miking.
For what reason exactly?

I don't agree. Have you tried it out? I have zero problem getting insanely good audio everywhere I patch mine.

And I have recorded distant stereo pair technique on strings with Gefell M221 Pressure Omni's in a large hall with mine and the client's jaw was in his shoes.......
Old 30th August 2013 | Show parent
  #126
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🎧 15 years
I'm a big fan of the V76M... but the real question is- holy grail for WHAT?

everything? straight wire w/ gain, color w/ mics & outboard? Maag, Martech, Millennia, Gordon.

vocals? Telefunken V76M, Neve class A

drums? Neve class A, API 312/512, Telefunken V76/72, QE/Sphere/etc.

ribbons? Maag, RCA BA-11a, OP6

guitars? Telefunken, Neve, Quad 8

acoustics? Telefunken, Martech, Mastering Lab

bass? Telefunken, RCA, Neve, API

as i look through the above... Telefunken seems to pop up a lot. my $0.02
Old 30th August 2013 | Show parent
  #127
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Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybelmont ➑️
we are talking about the super important "holy grail preamp" subject.

We don't have time for this sidetracking about if radial called lundahl or anybody else. We are on an important quest here. What are you talking about.
bwahahaha
Old 1st September 2013
  #128
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Gordon for any music, any mic, any time
Old 1st September 2013 | Show parent
  #129
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Here you go. Here's the holy grail. Now I run.
Attached Thumbnails
Holy grail preamp: most versatile?-image.jpg  
Old 1st September 2013 | Show parent
  #130
Baz
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
Gordon for any music, any mic, any time
Same can be said for Forssell...
Old 1st September 2013
  #131
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MMm...overall is nothing is holygrail...not even compressors or mice.

But yes there are some great mic press, John Hardy, Creamer, Shadow Hills, and few others.
Old 1st September 2013 | Show parent
  #132
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
I have no clue if I already posted my thoughts earlier in this thread, but in case my aesthetic has evolved, of the ones I've used and/or owned, I have to say that 'holy grail' to me means something I can use anywhere at any time. It would be the preamp that if I was given only multiple channels of, I would thoroughly enjoy doing a whole record with it on any source. With that in mind, for me, of the ones I have personal experience with, I have to say it's the Burl B1 is at the top of the heap.

While I like my Zen Pro Full Mod Pre73's a little more for things like kick, bass, and vocals, those aren't as ideal on other things. Same with my Telefunken v676a's.

To add more to the pot, just by design and topology alone, I'm thinking the CAPI vp28 and the Hairball Lola would probably be in the same league. Both those designers seem to have come up with some fine, fine tools there...
Old 2nd September 2013
  #133
Deleted 2ef94c5
Guest
I have heard hundreds and amassed dozens of preamps, but finally I settled on 24x Wunder PEQs, and sold everything else accept a pair of Buzz MA2.2, BAE 312s, Avalon 2022s and AMS 1073s. The Wunders are larger than life, fast, big extended lows, smooth thru the mids (like Neve) and with airy highs. A dream of a vintage preamp come true in modern day, with a musical tone adjusting EQ as a bonus. I thought it was game over and moved on for many years...

THEN I recently had a chance to hear the Pueblo Audio pres and now everything has changed (yet again) for me. This preamp is so alive, yet transparent sounding that you actually hear more of everything - tone without adding tone - go figure! I am very excited by the sound of this preamp because whenever gear fosters a purer emotional conveyance, we must take note!

This is NOT a measurement amplifier kind of sound. The source is in your face. The room is undeniably alive. And best of all (for me), your microphone is heard astonishingly clear, in a way that I imagine most developers have yet to hear of their own product, but intended it to sound during R&D. In the past, for transparent recordings, I have loved Gordon, Buzz, Martech and Forsell (engineers love bringing in their favs), but this Pueblo does something different while keeping the tone and detail intact, and amazingly preserves it all thru to the AD.

Compared to my other preamps, there is a noticeable increase in 'apparent energy' that is captured (despite the lack of harmonic distortion), and as a result the mics placement becomes even more critical. Do you want more room energy or more source energy or a nice balance of the two? Too much room could wash out the source, and too much source can sound unnatural.

I realize (more than most ppl here) that preamp selection is almost as subjective as converter selection, and that other people may not appreciate what I am tuning into regarding them. It is my opinion that the Pueblo Audio pres represent a slight departure from the expected 'clean microphone recording sound' of yesterday, and may not be appreciated by those who expect a new transparent pre to delivery a marginal improvement to the sound they very familiar with from their already coveted preamp and microphone collection, but if they simply suspend judgements for a bit and adapt to what is heard while placing the same mics they have been placing for years, perhaps others will have a similar reaction as I am having - more emotional energy (assuming its there to begin with).

That said, for imparting color (natural amp 'EQ'), I am going to keep 2 of the Wunders, 2x BAE 312, 2x 1073 and then purchase a Powerstrip (i want a single tube channel for certain mics), along with eventually 12 channels of Pueblo.
Old 2nd September 2013 | Show parent
  #134
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Very interesting!

Keep hearing a lot about the Pueblos ... and since the designer, I believe, worked with Bernie Grundman I'm very intrigued because @ BG Mastering the majority of the equipment is custom made and audibly (as well as visually) impressive.

And the Wunder Pre/EQ's are used by Schoeps themselves to showcase their mics!

Have you tried the NPNG?

I own Avalon M4's (older version of AD2022/M5) and was wondering what would complement these.
Since you're getting rid of your 2022 I would presume that they fall in the "clean" or "Pueblo side" of the spectrum?
So that leaves you with the 312/1073 colors & the Pueblo/Wunder (aren't these Pultec based?) group on the other end ...
Old 2nd September 2013
  #135
Deleted 2ef94c5
Guest
Hi aremos! I have never heard the NPNG but if one ever shows up in my studio I will post my thoughts.

I really love the all preamps that I ended up with after 20 years of exploring (I have had so many preamps in the studio that you would be shocked at some that I ended up dismissing), so I feel awful going on a public forum to say that I am selling the Buzz, Avalon (2022) and most of the Wunders, when the truth is that these are spectacular preamps.

I am a true Gearslut who believes that technology is always advancing (yes even analog), and that is why I keep an ear to the ground when it comes to technology that potentially could improve the emotional transfer from musician to listener, even to the slightest degree.

The 2022 is definitely closer to the Wunder pre than to the 1073. They both sound modern at the extremes with a smooth middle, and while the 2022 may not have the thunderous low end capability of the Wunders, the bottom is firm, deep and 'record ready' across ANY genre you can think of. Again, I feel bad that I am publicly saying there is better when it is not a matter of better or worse, but personal preference when it comes to the feeling of emotion thru sound.

Enter the Pueblos. When most other preamps have differing qualities that explain the bottom, middle and top, the pueblo has one quality throughout, and in my best words that would be a brutally honesty and dynamic frequency response wrapped in a very slight energetic aura that is not hyped or excited in any way, but is most noticeable on the decay of a signal (which is why the room sound in relation to the source is slightly different compared to the Wunders). And I thought the Wunders had amazing room detail...

Ugh, I dont know how to describe it. Words fail. You have to hear it for yourself, and preferably contrasted next to your current favorite preamp, or one that you know very well. Everybody reacts differently to sound, but this is a game changer for me, and one that will allow me to move on yet again.
Old 22nd September 2013 | Show parent
  #136
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Rumi's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr3 ➑️
Hi aremos! I have never heard the NPNG but if one ever shows up in my studio I will post my thoughts.

I really love the all preamps that I ended up with after 20 years of exploring (I have had so many preamps in the studio that you would be shocked at some that I ended up dismissing), so I feel awful going on a public forum to say that I am selling the Buzz, Avalon (2022) and most of the Wunders, when the truth is that these are spectacular preamps.

I am a true Gearslut who believes that technology is always advancing (yes even analog), and that is why I keep an ear to the ground when it comes to technology that potentially could improve the emotional transfer from musician to listener, even to the slightest degree.

The 2022 is definitely closer to the Wunder pre than to the 1073. They both sound modern at the extremes with a smooth middle, and while the 2022 may not have the thunderous low end capability of the Wunders, the bottom is firm, deep and 'record ready' across ANY genre you can think of. Again, I feel bad that I am publicly saying there is better when it is not a matter of better or worse, but personal preference when it comes to the feeling of emotion thru sound.

Enter the Pueblos. When most other preamps have differing qualities that explain the bottom, middle and top, the pueblo has one quality throughout, and in my best words that would be a brutally honesty and dynamic frequency response wrapped in a very slight energetic aura that is not hyped or excited in any way, but is most noticeable on the decay of a signal (which is why the room sound in relation to the source is slightly different compared to the Wunders). And I thought the Wunders had amazing room detail...

Ugh, I dont know how to describe it. Words fail. You have to hear it for yourself, and preferably contrasted next to your current favorite preamp, or one that you know very well. Everybody reacts differently to sound, but this is a game changer for me, and one that will allow me to move on yet again.
Hi,

I have started a thread about Pueblo vs Gordon etc., and would be very interested to read more about your insights, especially about Pueblo vs. Gordon:
Gordon vs. Pueblo (vs. Forssell, Pendulum, NPNG, Audio Upgrades...)

I am in the process of buying 4 channel units of both NPNG and Pueblo, and plan to make comparisons. I will include Forssell SMP-2, Pendulum, ULN-8, Mercury M72s, Daking, ZAG (cool vintage Swiss mic pres), and a Soundfield MKV in those tests.
I can't promise when those files will be ready, though, since I've been very busy lately.
Old 22nd September 2013 | Show parent
  #137
Lives for gear
 
Ward Pike's Avatar
 
15 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddinator ➑️
Here you go. Here's the holy grail. Now I run.
Thanks. I had no idea about these until now!
Old 1st November 2013
  #138
Registered User
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
The most versatile preamp is not the best preamp. I would rather have a slew of one-trick ponies that shine on specific sources.

That being said, for what I do (soulful rock), there are preamps that I have experience with which I would feel comfortable putting on any source.

I've often asked myself, "if my world was closing in and I was forced to sell all but one preamp, what would I keep?"

The answer for me is
Electrodyne (2)501
Pacifica
Shadow Hills GAMA

These are all colored pres, but I like their color. I think you can run any source through any of these and have rich sonic results with little compromise. I feel like I could still make great recordings with only one of these.

My mileage is limited (I've never used a Telefunken v76 for example), and your mileage may vary.
Old 1st November 2013
  #139
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
I'm a little surprised to not see the capi vp26 or vp28 show up on this list with all the love they get. I have a pair of vp28s and have yet to find something they don't excel at. To be fair though I have tried very few of the high end pres named in this thread.
Old 1st November 2013 | Show parent
  #140
Lives for gear
 
herecomesyourman's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr3 ➑️
I have heard hundreds and amassed dozens of preamps, but finally I settled on 24x Wunder PEQs, and sold everything else accept a pair of Buzz MA2.2, BAE 312s, Avalon 2022s and AMS 1073s. The Wunders are larger than life, fast, big extended lows, smooth thru the mids (like Neve) and with airy highs. A dream of a vintage preamp come true in modern day, with a musical tone adjusting EQ as a bonus. I thought it was game over and moved on for many years...

THEN I recently had a chance to hear the Pueblo Audio pres and now everything has changed (yet again) for me. This preamp is so alive, yet transparent sounding that you actually hear more of everything - tone without adding tone - go figure! I am very excited by the sound of this preamp because whenever gear fosters a purer emotional conveyance, we must take note!

This is NOT a measurement amplifier kind of sound. The source is in your face. The room is undeniably alive. And best of all (for me), your microphone is heard astonishingly clear, in a way that I imagine most developers have yet to hear of their own product, but intended it to sound during R&D. In the past, for transparent recordings, I have loved Gordon, Buzz, Martech and Forsell (engineers love bringing in their favs), but this Pueblo does something different while keeping the tone and detail intact, and amazingly preserves it all thru to the AD.

Compared to my other preamps, there is a noticeable increase in 'apparent energy' that is captured (despite the lack of harmonic distortion), and as a result the mics placement becomes even more critical. Do you want more room energy or more source energy or a nice balance of the two? Too much room could wash out the source, and too much source can sound unnatural.

I realize (more than most ppl here) that preamp selection is almost as subjective as converter selection, and that other people may not appreciate what I am tuning into regarding them. It is my opinion that the Pueblo Audio pres represent a slight departure from the expected 'clean microphone recording sound' of yesterday, and may not be appreciated by those who expect a new transparent pre to delivery a marginal improvement to the sound they very familiar with from their already coveted preamp and microphone collection, but if they simply suspend judgements for a bit and adapt to what is heard while placing the same mics they have been placing for years, perhaps others will have a similar reaction as I am having - more emotional energy (assuming its there to begin with).

That said, for imparting color (natural amp 'EQ'), I am going to keep 2 of the Wunders, 2x BAE 312, 2x 1073 and then purchase a Powerstrip (i want a single tube channel for certain mics), along with eventually 12 channels of Pueblo.
As excited as I am for you for finding something new that you're obviously enjoying...

I would say maybe keep 8 or 10 of the Wunders since they have EQ built in for times when you have to run signals through EQ's to beef up the tone.

If you like that sound, it'd fit with 16 of the Pueblo's I'm sure.

Then again I don't know how you like to work, or if you ever find yourself mixing sessions that just weren't recorded very well.

I can see not needing the other "Clean" type pres, but with 8 or 10 of the Wunders you've already got and your two Neves and two API's you'd have enough colored signals to really have some cool options.

For tube Channel stripes maybe Pendulum Quartet II's? But I'd almost rather get a Thermionic Culture Early bird (2 channel) over any other tube preamp design...except MAYBE the D.W. Fearn stuff. (Those two are seriously great designs.)

I dunno...I like having a few options myself...and I prefer to have fours and eights of most designs I use.
Old 1st November 2013 | Show parent
  #141
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4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtripper ➑️
I'm a little surprised to not see the capi vp26 or vp28 show up on this list with all the love they get. I have a pair of vp28s and have yet to find something they don't excel at. To be fair though I have tried very few of the high end pres named in this thread.
The VP28 is the single best API style Preamp money can buy IMHO.

But...I don't know that I always want that sound on everything.

I keep thinking about the Great River MP-2NV...with the EQ-2NV it's seriously tough to beat.

My problem with this whole thread is it's kind of like saying: "I only want to eat chocolate or vanilla for the rest of my life."
Old 1st November 2013 | Show parent
  #142
Gear Guru
 
Sqye's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
.

Holy grail? .... No contest. ....The Pre on this thing KICKS ASS!







.
Old 1st November 2013
  #143
nms
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman ➑️
It's the single best API style Preamp money can buy IMHO.
VP28... Def my next preamp purchase!
Old 4th November 2013
  #144
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieter k ➑️
On the surface, it's a fairly simple question, which may or may not incite strong opinions:

Understanding that no single device is perfect on everything, and of what is currently available, if you had to pick two channels of mic preamplification--and no other pair--that would be as faithful to the source as possible on as many sources as possible*, and work with as wide a variety of ribbon, dynamic, SDC and LDC mics as possible, what would that preamp be?

In other words, the most versatile, no compromises, no excuses preamp. I have ideas, but without prejudicing the response, whatchagot?




*
How I would most likely use it: acoustic ensembles (i.e., from classical quartet to bluegrass ensemble to jazz trio to solo piano); drum OHs in a studio or as room mics in same; for tracking in a studio on any variety of instruments, from winds to string to percussion, and especially on guitar and bass amplifiers; vocals, from solo singers (rock to jazz to classical); remote recording.
Check this guy out. It consists of four unique tube (all hand built, point-to-point) preamps that can be staged down and mixed into one preamp. Essentially, you have the option of creating 16 different preamps from this one unit. Everything is constructed without the use of negative feedback, allowing for extraordinary detail and maximum dynamic range. More people need to know about this company. It's one guy who doesn't settle for half-ass work. Everything he builds is carefully crafted and has been shot out against some of the best preamps out there. Check out his videos and samples.

Hendyamps Mosaic


Last edited by JRigby; 9th December 2013 at 10:56 PM..
Old 16th November 2013 | Show parent
  #145
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Sqye's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont ➑️
We are talking about the super important "holy grail preamp" subject.

We don't have time for this sidetracking about if Radial called Lundahl or anybody else. We are on an important quest here. What are you talking about.
.

Nice political sidestep there...




.
Old 16th November 2013
  #146
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eagle007's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Versatile ? I would say UA 4-710d

It has FET
It has Tube
Though limited in options, it has 1176 style compression
It has both analog and digital up to 192kHz
It has plenty gain

Uhm... starting to sound like a sales person :D But seriously, I like this device
Old 16th November 2013
  #147
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman ➑️
The VP28 is the single best API style Preamp money can buy IMHO.

But...I don't know that I always want that sound on everything.

I keep thinking about the Great River MP-2NV...with the EQ-2NV it's seriously tough to beat.

My problem with this whole thread is it's kind of like saying: "I only want to eat chocolate or vanilla for the rest of my life."
I know you really like the Great River because I see you always recommend it. But the pre on the Aurora Aurora GTQC is better plain and simple. Plus he GTQC is more versatile. It has a Pre, EQ, 1176 and LA2A style compressors and VU meter on it. Yes, the EQ-2NV is a versatile EQ but the title of this thread is about pres and in that department the GTQC as a all around box destroys the Great River MP-2NV sound and feature wise. In my opinion.

Sent from Galaxy Note 2
Old 16th November 2013 | Show parent
  #148
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
I KNOW all of you were wondering, so I took the challenge and tried to collate all the results from this thread. It wasn't always clear precisely how many votes for preamps there were, as there were multiple posts, etc., and sometimes it wasn't clear what the poster was actually saying. Then, there was the inevitable arguing about esoteric details...

I have to wonder by seeing this list, if some of the results here are just what an individual owns in their studio and is accustomed to using, vs. someone with actual experience using several versatile pres. I suppose that's a weakness with this sort of informal survey. Another weakness is the relative popularity of a manufacturer just by virtue of their size or longevity in the business, vs. smaller "boutique" pres that folks aren't as familiar with.

One other thing bears mentioning, and that's the possible dichotomy of the original idea of this thread: what may be a "holy grail" preamp may not necessarily be the most versatile, and vice versa. Although, in the spirit of this thread, I think it can be assumed that the two adjectives are interchangeable.

I've ordered the list by popularity, although most of the mentions were only once. I apologize for any inaccuracies -- this wasn't as easy as I thought!

Gordon...................................5
Neve.....................................5
GML 8302...............................5
NPNG.....................................4
Juggernaut Twin......................4
John Hardy Twin-Servo 990.......3
Slate Pro Audio Fox..................3
API.......................................3
Forssell..................................3
DAV BG1................................3
Sonic Farm Creamer.................2
Great River.............................2
Dave Hill Europa.......................2
Pendulum Audio MDP-1a............2
Hamptone HVTP2.....................2
Jim Williams' High Speed preamp..2
Aurora Audio GTQ2...................2
Telefunken..............................2
John Hardy M1.........................2
Buzz Audio MA2.2.....................2
TK Audio DP1...........................1
Thermionic Rooster...................1
Buzz Audio Elixir.......................1
Lake People F355.....................1
Apogee Track 2.......................1
Daking...................................1
ATI MX2................................1
Avedis MA5............................1
BAE......................................1
AEA RPQ................................1
Vintech 473...........................1
Chandler Limited TG2...............1
Burl B1..................................1
Fearn VT-2............................1
Millennia STT-1......................1
RCA op-6...............................1
Vintech x73...........................1
Flamingo...............................1
AEA TRP................................1
ADT Audio V776......................1
Crookwood Paintpot.................1
Schoeps VSR-5.......................1
Rens Heijnis Custom Built..........1
Pueblo...................................1
Behringer Mic100.....................1
Electrodyne 501......................1
A-Designs Pacifica...................1
Shadow Hills GAMA...................1
CAPI v28................................1
HendyAmps Mosaic...................1
Universal Audio 4-710d..............1
Old 16th November 2013 | Show parent
  #149
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
John Hardy Twin Servo

A John Hardy Twin Servo is what we chose for the workbench to test all our microphones before they go out the door. It has the transient response we were looking for to really hear how our microphones perform and it is very neutral sounding without being too "clinical" and Ultra HiFi. Plus the phantom power supply actually measures 48v with the microphone powered.

Cheers, Dave Thomas
aamicrophones.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT ➑️
Hardy Twin Servo for what you describe. Gives you what you need to make tracks do what you want for any genre. A good all rounder.

Clean but big, not sterile.

john
Old 3rd December 2013
  #150
Coming back here after several months and finding the discussion going on with even more responses.

So many of you with tons of experience and working under ideal conditions with the best equipment.
I have heard that you better be able to play your ass off with an NPNG because it will show off every flaw.
You hear the same thing about high end microphones.
I realize I may have to work long and hard on my playing, mixing, acoustics, recording etc to get things right.
But I would like to ask the question in a different way.
What would you reach for under the worst conditions?
You don't have the best mic, room, players, any of that.
For example, I chose my mic (SM7b) for its tone and its noise rejecting properties.
Your "drummer" is a drum machine. Your "Bass" is coming from the sounds in your keyboard.
You don't want to bring out the room. You just want to flatter the source as much as possible, hit record and keep tracking.

What do you reach for then? Even if not a specific brand name, an idea of what type of preamp would be most helpful.
πŸ“ Reply

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