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PLEASE, THE TRUTH! Why are 2" tape machines so cheap these days ?
Old 19th May 2006 | Show parent
  #61
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Capstan Cappy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang
Tastes are different, but I really couldn't justify to have time consuming and ineefective 24 track tape machine despite all nuances it can add to sound. We don't talk about price here, as I don't mind to pay 8-10 k for mic I really dig.
I think people don't need tape anymore and for right reasons.
Tape is part of great history and despite 'genuine sonic differences, warmth etc' I think that we have indeed much better tools that can bring us to any desired result if we know what we do and spend enough time to learn how to do it.
Tape is dead, despite what bunch of real gear slutzs write here , but it has certain charm, so we'll probably see some revivals, before it disappears fully.
I'd love to see my JH16/24 transistor trafo ballanced MCI VS your 24bit/192khz DAW anyday my friend ,
before this ends up in digital vs annalog discussion wich is the only thing that is dead tbh, tell me why not long ago the entire AMPEX production line was bought by others to be able to suply the demand of tape???
all around me people i know that are active in this business are buying telefunken M15 and 16 or 24 track decks, it would be foolish to think tape will reapear as the main format to be used again but it is crawling back to be heard again that is for sure,we have left a path that had such a high standard , what is the standard today? . first of all the machines are getting cheaper cause less and less people know how to maintain them in the first place, so the demand drops , it used to be the tech, or studio owner itselve who had a technical degree of electronics when simple componenents as transistors , trafo's , etc were still used, nowadays a technical education doesn't involve that anymore, it's all digital, so as far as you can ask yourselve is there enouf knowledge of simple electronics present on the workfloor the awnser is no in most cases!!, with respect to people who put in a good deal of work building their studio, so there is your first bill: a hired tech from outside , a +/-60 year old man hehe..second many clients prefer digital because others prefer digital they actually don't know why themselves just that others do , (round and round we go) so the demand drops again, most machines are pretty big that's a factor but rubbish in my opinion unless people realy don't have the space, if you do then your just to lazy to put it there hehe jk
the idea that a DAW would be faster then a 24trck is also nonsense, go edit a whole song while i push record again to do it right.
the myth about tape being useless after being recorded on it once is also not treu, you can use tapes again pretty often , only depends what type of tape you have so the costs can be reduced there significantly if you buy a new tape for every project
i know a few studios owners who use vintage consoles and annalog machines in combination with DAW and i can tell you their clients all say, WOW, howcome i can't get that in other studio's who don't use it. and they are loaded with work!
last but least about the original poster saying there have been many digital hits even if they sound crappy, a hit is a hit, sound is in that matter less important for the listener, but imo people listen to much to what "others" think is good, follow your own head and ideas, many are tempted by what the standard is today, what if the standard of today sucks, what then, combination works the best imo,
Old 19th May 2006 | Show parent
  #62
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Capstan Cappy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
bla

arrg double post, bla
Old 19th May 2006 | Show parent
  #63
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Musiclab's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
you forgot about #4 -- those who have used both extensively and really don't care what they use. Their focus is on the music, and not the gear, and they have found ways to get to what they are hearing in their heads regardless of the recording medium.

The analog snob thing is getting pretty old. Get over it. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian...

JP
Actually my focus is on the music , I will make what I'm recording sound good regardless, but if I have a choice why not use what I believe to be best?
Old 19th May 2006 | Show parent
  #64
Gear Guru
 
Musiclab's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691
Now this has the makings of a real fiery debate, which is EXACTLY why I started this thread.

Ouestion for other forum members: WHO is speaking the TRUTH ? MusicLab or RainbowStorm ?

MusicLab seems to think RainbowStorm's elaborate and well thought out argument is bogus nonsense. He claims that recording to analog tape, from his own practical experience, is undeniably sonically SUPERIOR to ANY digital!

And RainbowStorm probably thinks MusicLab is an out-of-touch, nostalgic retro freak who stubbornly refuses to hear the divine blessings of digital modernity. He essentially states that analog tape is completely obsolete, and one would be an unwise fool throwing his money into the graveyard of antiquated analog machines.

Such profoundly antithetical arguments leave me writhing in anguished confusion!

WHO is telling the unvarnished TRUTH ?? !! Does tape REALLY sound better than the best of today's digital ? Or does it just sound qualitatively different ?

WHAT are these plug-ins that can simulate what tape does to a vocal, bass, or drum track ?


sage691
I use 2" analog and a daw every day. I've been a logic user since version 1.6. I use the daw for sequencing, editing and fixing and tuning. When I need more than 24
tracks, I continue on the daw, since I have another 24 channels of I/O for that.
Stop writhing in confusion, go work in a place that has both and then you'll figure out if its better or not.
Old 19th May 2006 | Show parent
  #65
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mac black's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
It’s for the same reason people use mp3!!
Who give a s**t about quality .
Tape has its own sound but it seems that digital mixes are always louder.
I've done both and I like both.
Life is much easier with digital.
Progress is measured by comfort.... Or so it seems ...
Old 19th May 2006 | Show parent
  #66
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Anybody care to comment on how IZ's Radar Hard Disk Recorder fits in here..??

I just did 2 days of rhythm section tracking (drums, bass, guitars) to a Radar Nyquist recorder at 24/48..

I've also tracked the same to an Ampex MM 1200 2" 16 track tape machine and Pro tools HD at 24/96..

I was absolutely knocked out by the sounds coming off the Radar..

Right up there with the MM 1200 and much preferable to PT HD...

Just my $.02..
Old 19th May 2006 | Show parent
  #67
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Seems like most of the bands I talk to lately want to record their next album to tape. A lot of people are tired of computers in the studio.
Trend? I think so.
Old 20th May 2006
  #68
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Digital Sucks. And so do many recordings today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691
Is it because 24 bit, 192khz HD recording sounds just as good ?

Is it because the machines have a predetermined life span, and many are soon to be out-of-service permanently ?

Is it because so many ****ty sounding digitally recorded records have come out in the last 10 years that were MAJOR hits anyway, reducing the standard ?

Is it because so many GREAT sounding digitally recorded records have come out in the last 10 years ? If so, PLEASE name some of them where ALL the tracking was ONLY digital, and mixing digital also.

Is it because many studio owners who were high on the hog 15 years ago can only make a tenth of the money they used to make, due to the overwhelming abundance of crappy sounding "home recorded" music these days.

Is it because the biggest selling genre today is RAP, where most of the artists get their sound from sample CDs of pre-recorded beats already tweaked at great studios, largely bypassing the need to record in a great studio ?

Is it because the record companies are going downhill themselves, and no longer putting out big studio budgets for their artists to make a record ? Is this why alot of BIG studios with the 2" machines are going out of business and "liquidating" ?

Or is it just because these machines will soon be considered completely antiquated, because their sound will be fully replicated by high-end digital plug-ins in a DAW environment like PT ?


WHY ? WHY ? WHY? These machines (like the Studer A80) used to be $100k if I remember correctly. They were "untouchable" for most of us!

Why are they SO CHEAP NOW!!!!!!!?

I think most people covered your question pretty well as to why analog machines are a bargain these days, so I just wanted to say DIGITAL SUCKS!!! AND SO DO MANY RECORDINGS TODAY. It's painful to listen to alot of professionally recorded stuff today, that was done with big time budgets, by big time mixers in the digital domaindfegad. dfegad
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #69
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by covert
They are high maintenance machines, and still expensive compared to computers. This means that a certain degree of dedication is required to use them. Add that to the fact that tape costs are igh enough to make it impractical for many projects, and you get tape machines sitting idle. Add that to the footprint and you get machines being sold. Then supply and demand get involved and prices plummet.
All good answers ...


Bottom line, however ... digital is easier.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #70
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWallStudio
I have a MCI JH-16 and Pro-tools. Had a band in this week finishing up some tracks that were tracked in Pro-tools. As this band was walking in, I was finishing up tearing down a mix from another band that had recorded on tape. They wanted to listen to the song once, so I obliged and played the analog tracks for them (no eq, comps or effects at this point.. straight through the board). I finished tearing down the mix, got theirs set up and hit the space bar to make sure everything was where it should be. Needless to say, after about 30 seconds when I stopped playback, there was a dead silence in the room. No one said a word.. until the drummers girl friend said "why does that other band sound so much better than yours?" The drums for both bands where recorded in the same room, with the same mics, the same mic pre's, the same engineer (me). And to compound matters, the drummer for the band that recorded digitially was a more consistent drummer with a better sounding kit. Bottom line is having analog may be a bit of a luxury these days, but it is much more fun to work in that world and a joy to listen to... which is why I do this, it sure isn't for the money.
I recently tracked six mics of my son drumming (4 to daw, and the 2 o/h's to my new/old Otari MX 5050 1/4 inch two track @ 15 ips.)
Pow!
What an ear opener.
The O/H's sounder crisper, with a lot more crunch compared to the other four, which were dull by comparison.

Tried to sync the two o/h's, but of course couldn't as there was no syncing device.

But gee, when the six tracks were fleetingly in sync, the difference was very noticeable.

I guess the only solution is to start saving for at least an eight tracker (1 inch if possible), use 1 track for sync and the other 7 seven for drums and bass.

I'm a convert. Dammit!
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #71
Kush Audio
 
u b k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
you forgot about #4 -- those who have used both extensively and really don't care what they use. Their focus is on the music, and not the gear...
so you record on any old thing laying around then, right? because you don't really care what gear you use. oh, sweet freedom!

i do believe it is possible, at least for me, to focus on both the music and the gear. i can also rub my stomach while patting my head!


Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
the analog snob thing is getting pretty old. Get over it. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian...
guns beat arrows 9 out of 10 times. we talkin' asian indian or native american here? because i am *definitely* noticing a trend on the customer service lines.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #72
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
for commakazee

Quote:
Originally Posted by commaKaze
HARPO,
Why don't you rent studio time and make a RAP album on 2"...be sure to bring to "gold chains and Glock handguns" and do not underestimate the power of gold teeth.

How did everyone let his lewd comment against hip hop artists fly...What does this guy hang out with David Duke or something?
Hey commakazee,

I have recorded and mixed more rappers in the metro New Orleans area than ANY other studio in the last 5 years. I have seen more gold teeth and Glocks walk in to my studio probably than any other member of this forum. I'm the studio that took on all the clients that all the other politically correct "snobs" in this city would not, due to their innate prejudice and fear of the african people of this city. Yes, SNOBS who protest racism in the safe, ivy league dormitories of white bred universities, but who tremble in fear when stopped at a red light in an african ghetto.

My studio is actually IN THE GHETTO! Most people think I am nuts to get in and out of my car at night. But guess what ? I have hundreds of gold toothed, Glock carrying rappers and thugs from this city who absolutely adore me and would cover my back in any hostile situation. Why? Because I gave them great sounding production at a price that made the other studios look like con-artists to them; and most of all, I WAS NOT the politically correct type to make them feel uncomfortable in the studio. I let them curse, scream, wail, and say nigga til their hearts were content.

And now I am even collaborating with a N.O. rapper on my latest album. That's right, I RAP!!!!

And guess what else ? MOST of the REAL THUG rappers who have come to my studio share an attitude that modern rap is just a bunch of lame posers who are sellout *****s for the mainstream record industry. There is a big ATTITUDE amongst these rappers that RAP SUCKS today, and needs to be REVIVED. They see modern rap as the white man's manipulation scheme to dominate the minds of the downtrodden ethnic masses, by promoting the lamest and most meaningless rap that you see on television today. And they have a deep insight into this, and a wonderfully creative way of expressing their thoughts about it!!! YES, the white man's evil entertainment industry DESTROYED the cultural MOVEMENT that was the RAP of the past intentionally! How did he do it ? By promoting the superficial posers!

David Duke ? What !!!! Go back to the university, white boy!!
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #73
Gear Addict
 
Mike Derrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691
What else is this forum for if not to get the differing opinions of people who obviously have some experience with recording gear ?

Actually, I have learned more from total strangers over the years about recording gear, what it does, and how to use it then from ANYONE that I knew personally (excepting 1 very special individual, whom I met as a stranger seeking to expand my knowledge about recording) -- so what are you getting at ?

I may not have yet recorded to analog tape myself, but I have heard some recordings of different people I have met over the years who had the "Big Studuio Sound" Mindf*ck and recorded to 2", and I thought most of it sucked and was poorly mixed and "demo" sounding to me.

You are RIGHT though that to satisfy my curiosity I should rent a little time at another studio with 2" tape, then transfer to my PT system and see if the stuff sounds better than my digital recordings. Probably the thing to do before chucking down $5k for a real machine.
Sage,

Dumping into ProTols to see if the stuff sounds better than digital...
well ok, but,...if you plan on comparing analog to digital,...

You best keep analog analog and digital digital. Then compare!

That will give you the true truth.

I think that is where all the complete misunderstandings about the 2 mediums come from.
That somehow putting analog into digital then comparing is a fair comparison.
Putting analog into digital makes analog sound like digital,...since it is no longer analog.
Of course the analog-tape-recorded tracks will retain some of their analog flavour compared to tracks you record straight into a computer,
however if ya wanna hear the extent of the differences...

You best keep analog analog and digital digital. Then compare!

Like Paterno said,...go try it yourself and decide.
Then you will hear the truth and know the lies and also know whose opinions hold water and whose are completely unfounded.

I got both analog and digital, so no amount of lies will dissuade me from the reality of the benefits and shortcomings of either medium.

~ mike
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #74
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lclyman
Anybody care to comment on how IZ's Radar Hard Disk Recorder fits in here..??.

fits right in between an mm1200 16 trk and PTHD ... there's no chaos/musicality added yet also no harsh harmonics. nice low end. boostable mid/top that stays pleasing. tight.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #75
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Mike Derrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Ok, I went to that link (about Bob, apparently part owner of Apogee),...

Bob's "opinion" about analog sounding worse and digital sounding better is coming from someone who doesn't have ANY analog tape recording gear in his studio.
And that "opinion" also makes his studio set-up look more appealing...
hmmm,
not only that, but to be fair, if he is gonna mention the shortcomings of analog tape, he should mention the shortcomings of digital because they
both have their fair share, can anyone say jitter, dither, aliasing frequencies, etc???

besides if Bob is taking signals from the computer then he's got at least 2 conversions (AD and DA) plus one more to do to get it back into the computer. Not to mention the fact that he is already starting with digital tracks not analog!
So sticking tape in all that conversion path is not gonna do a whole lot for the sound. Best to start analog tape, mix from tape, then go digital.
So I personally (partly) agree with Bob's observations about taking a computer mix and putting it on tape, not much gained there, rather probably something lost, consdering the amount of a/d/a/d/ conversions going on.
Can anyone have an audio file stay identical having gone D/A/D,...??? (with the A being a wire from the digital out to the digital in)

And honestly if digital was sooo much better than analog, you wouldn't be able to pay people to accept a 2" Studer machine.
It'd all be junk. There is a good reason that is not so.
Has everyone forgotten the start of the digital era?...and what are those converters worth now??
Can I sell ya an old ADAT....?
Ask yourself how far have we come with A/D conversion?? ....and how much better will it become in the future?
And if it can become a whole lot better yet,...consider what that means for where we are now...?

To Sage's original question: our current attitudes in society place a higher value on speed, convenience, space and biggest-bang-for-smallest-buck rather than quality, craftsmenship, no-matter-the-cost. Thus the latter will drop in value.

back to Bob,...
I would sure like to have him sit down in a blind test with both mediums at the tracking phase...

~ mike
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #76
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691
By promoting the superficial posers!

They did it to rock, jazz, and country too - by the same method.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #77
Lives for Jesus
 
stevep's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush
Please do not comment on tape until you have used it for 25-30 years.
Then you can comment on tape.
I was talking to a friend the other day and he couldn't believe that we use razorblades to cut the tape to do edits,... cut, paste,....

I just bought 2 reels of 2" GP 9 for 187.00 a reel.

i think thats a good price,



as for the original question .....




" Why are tape decks so cheep ? "



I think most of its the fact that you cant fit a console, PSUs ,machine room, 2" tape machine in your bedroom.




But....


You can have the DAW in your bedroom......


So.....

I think allot of it is marketing . for the $$$$$$$$$$$$


Also...


There are very few large studios without at least one 2" machine




I could never see recording a band without an analogue multitrack.






steve




Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #78
Lives for Jesus
 
stevep's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYMAX
Seems like most of the bands I talk to lately want to record their next album to tape. A lot of people are tired of computers in the studio.
Trend? I think so.


.



Me to




.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #79
Lives for gear
 
superburtm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Now if the cost of an analog console like say a Neve 80 series would drop to 3-5 K life would be peachy!
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #80
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brianroth's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Once Upon A Year, as digital storage became the mainstream with my clients who used to do everything with 2"...

"WHEN was the last time that you ever had a roll of 2" suddenly disappear overnight, unless someone stole it?"

Example: one of my earliest projects from 1973 (2" 16 track) still plays back Just Fine. Of course, that project sucked, as did my drum micing!

OTOH, I figure any of the newer projects cut on a hard drive will be lucky to last for 5 or 10 years before the drive grinds to a halt. OTOH again, maybe that is the best thing so we can kill any evidence of Brittany Spears!!

Digital storage as we know it is inherently unreliable, so it will require multiple copies every few years to keep the track "alive". Yes, analog tape has "sticky shed", but a simple baking procedure can rescue old tapes. Try THAT with a broken hard drive.

I personally know of an older gent from NY state, who WAS retired, that is making a bazillion dollars per year working in Hollywood as he restores the old "mag dubbers" used 20+ years ago. It seems that Hollywood learned their lessons from DA-88 machines, and is using "antique" mag film as their "backup" from all of the DAW machines.

Bottom line..if the song is worth keeping, do NOT rely upon a digi-format unless you also have the money to migrate it to newer formats in 10/20/30/whatever years.

Fortunately, we will be rid of Brittany Spears by the year 2020 or 2030....


Bri
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #81
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GYang's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianroth
OTOH, I figure any of the newer projects cut on a hard drive will be lucky to last for 5 or 10 years before the drive grinds to a halt.
Dunno, I have old PC in basement with HDD from 1995 that has not been used for more than 9 years (yes small capacity and low speed) with some musical tracks on it. Just out of curiosity I found that all datas on it are still in perfect order.
Maybe today's HDDs have less life cycle, but I doubt that if HDD storage is put in more-less appropriate conditions it will not live as long as any tape.
OTOH for any important material, I don't see big problem to back it up after say 10yrs. period. It's hard to imagine how cheap will be let say 1000 GB of storage in 10 years.

Also, I agree with statement that in many studios you can see 2" or at least just 2-track analogue machine. Of course if clients ask, why not.
I know people who keep one or two machines just to improve overall 'professional' image of their studios and that's appealing to new clients sometimes.
In same time, the maximum for what they use tape machines is for tracking drums or printing drum tracks from DAW to tape for its saturation.
Still, I wasn't convinced that when everything done properly on both mediums, tape brings some sonical benefits (if not just opposite) to final mix.
If the project is done from the beginning to the end in analogue domain with really the best equipment, I can easily foresee particular smoothness and characteristic feel hardly attainable out of digital medium. At price of relatively lower resolution.
But, as we agreed that resolution is not always what is necessary, I think that both analogue and digital campus have enough firm reasons to keep going with choosen solutions without absolute truth what is ultimately better.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #82
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
fits right in between an mm1200 16 trk and PTHD ... there's no chaos/musicality added yet also no harsh harmonics. nice low end. boostable mid/top that stays pleasing. tight.
Lucey, well put, and I also recall the impact of the music coming off the mm 1200, and I experienced that same sense off the Radar...
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #83
Lives for gear
 
adamcal's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
to define what is "Cheap"

you have to remember what a 2" deck cost when new.

50 to 70K (here in OZ), so even spending 15K, I would still call that CHEAP.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #84
Lives for gear
 
True North's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I just wanted to comment on the reliability of tape VS HD. Anyone who has worked long enough with HD's long enough knows that they can go wonky on you wihtout much notice. For the short term I would have to agree that 2" is reasonably safer than an HD. Bearing that in mind, it is not the only NOR preferred form of storing important music files.

For long term storage, 2" tape is very finicky to keep in good usable shape and requires proper storage to remain properly maintained. I have 2 x 2" reels in my closet right now which would make great book ends but not much else. I keep them for nostalgia reasons but they are unusable.

With the advent of DVD recorders there is no doubt in my mind that digital storage is infinitely more reliable and simple to store for both short term and long term use than tape.

Most people with serious systems in a PC environment have some sort of Raid configured system or HD backup. Properly backing up material from your hardrive is now standard for most serious engineers who have made the leap into using DAW's. Once material has been backed up on CD or DVD there is no reasonable argument that can be made as to which storage medium is safer and more convenient.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #85
Harmless Wacko
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by True North

With the advent of DVD recorders there is no doubt in my mind that digital storage is infinitely more reliable and simple to store for both short term and long term use than tape.

Once material has been backed up on CD or DVD there is no reasonable argument that can be made as to which storage medium is safer and more convenient.
You're kidding right?

You're joking...?

I have almost a dozen DVD-R writers in my shop. We back up about 70 projects a year. Many of them QUITE sizable. We have a 'carry copy' for the band/label/whomever's paying and a PAIR of house copies burned. It's a pain in the ass to say the least. It used to be even worse with CD-R.

I have had SUBSTANTIAL archival issues. And let's face it, ONE... is ONE TOO MANY.

Sorry... In the fabric of my considerable experience in this area... Currently available OPTICAL digital mediums are inherently unstable and unreliable for long term storage.

Period.

Spare me the 'guesstimations' of the all-star panel of rocket scientists and manufacturing experts that anybody can google in 3 seconds. I've read so very many of them. I assure you. They are grab-assing around in utter blackness.

It may be "WHAT WE'RE DOING THESE DAYS".

It may be "ALL WE'VE GOT".

But fellaz....

Anybody who is buying into DVD-R as a SAFE and VIABLE long-term storage medium for archiving multitrack masters, is hereby requested to meet me... ten years from today... in the bar of the Times Square Hyatt.

I drink single malt Scotch whiskey.

And you, my friend... are gonna be the guy both crying.... and buying.


Best regards,

SM.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #86
Lives for gear
 
Bassmec's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I am sad about not having 2" anymore.

I miss the old MTR 90mk11 and the huge neve cambridge but I also miss my Jaguar XJS V12. I put that into storage last month. In my 27years in studio I think I have been a major contributor to global warming, how many reels of ampex have
I caused to be manufactured out of an oil product coated in Canadian mud.
Think of he monsoon rains falling all the way across the central USA flooding studios that have never before considered floud insurance.
Oh on second thoughts better get the Jag out cos the weather over here in England is like it used to be in the south of France and since you chaps from the new world have never had a moments concern for Kioto.
Sod it digidesign is from the states. Oh well I suppose a little competition is healthy (puts the Jag back in the barn).
As for what sounds better I think that a good mix of retro pre's and processors and the odd retro plug in can go a long way to even up the differences.
The thing that it came down to over here is that didgidesign persuded the A&R suits that it was good business and thus the writing was on the wall.
If you must you can allways slam a record head facing a playback head in a project box with a sliver of mica in between and fill it full of epoxy and then all that inductive, compressive, crosstalk, stuff is once again yours - the hiss and most of the hum you will have to add and will use up track count.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #87
Gear Guru
 
Musiclab's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by True North
I just wanted to comment on the reliability of tape VS HD. Anyone who has worked long enough with HD's long enough knows that they can go wonky on you wihtout much notice. For the short term I would have to agree that 2" is reasonably safer than an HD. Bearing that in mind, it is not the only NOR preferred form of storing important music files.

For long term storage, 2" tape is very finicky to keep in good usable shape and requires proper storage to remain properly maintained. I have 2 x 2" reels in my closet right now which would make great book ends but not much else. I keep them for nostalgia reasons but they are unusable.

With the advent of DVD recorders there is no doubt in my mind that digital storage is infinitely more reliable and simple to store for both short term and long term use than tape.

Most people with serious systems in a PC environment have some sort of Raid configured system or HD backup. Properly backing up material from your hardrive is now standard for most serious engineers who have made the leap into using DAW's. Once material has been backed up on CD or DVD there is no reasonable argument that can be made as to which storage medium is safer and more convenient.
If you have a problem with an old 2" tape, bake it. Slipperman is 1000% right, and even scarier, most people are just backing up onto another hard drive, which I think is just insane. With DVD, you also make the assumption that 10 years down the road, we will still have DVD, that operating sytems will read these files,
I've had clients briong in ancient tapes, I've had them baked aligned the deck and used them.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #88
Gear Addict
 
Capstan Cappy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac black
It’s for the same reason people use mp3!!
Who give a s**t about quality .
they actually do give shait about quality , but if you ask a 16 year old about it then u ask the wrong catagory, people use what is offered, they don't have any influence on wether to use mp3 or not, it is small and it is there so they use it.
the fact that mp3 degardes is the undustries own fault, they should have developed a much better sounding format straight away.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #89
Lives for gear
 
chrisrulesmore's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As far as I can tell, tape production is not going anywhere. Quantegy is producing again and ATR has a brand new production facility that is about to open. That is two more production facilities than were around recently when Quantegy declared bankruptcy. Not to mention the fact that there seem to be a lot of people selling lightly used reels of tape for virtually nothing.

Honestly, the dude's comment about the gear life cycle is exactly where I'm coming from. In an age where everyone seems to be moving to the DAW supplemented with boutique outboard gear, tape machines and consoles are being given away daily. For the price of a couple channels of outboard preamps, you could get a pretty respectable console nowadays.

-Chris
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #90
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
..."I have had SUBSTANTIAL archival issues. And let's face it, ONE... is ONE TOO MANY...."

Remind me to never ask you to do any of my archival work!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you guys really slap something on one single dvd or one single hard drive as an "archive" and then intend to forget it and let it sit in a drawer for 5-10-20 years and then "see" if it works?

I have archives on archives on archives. It's ongoing...from safety analog reels of the 70's...to safety Sony F1/vhs of the 80's..to dat..to adat...to 16bit wav on cd...to 24 bit wav on dvd...to 24/192 on dvd...to dual layer...to multiple hard drives...and now as of last week, over to blu-ray.

Ongoing archives has been a constant since the 60's for me. Why would one do a single archive or two and then leave it at that? Weird.

If half my archives go bad, no problem, the other bazillion are still there. If my original analog reels are destroyed in a comet explosion, no problem. I've reached critical mass with my level of archives on all my old stuff. Most of it first generation now that we've gotten out of the horrid old technology of decades long gone.

And as an ongoing measure, archives are constantly being moved to new media...most of which is very very inexpensive. And..most of the old stuff continues to work. With the ongoing archives procedure...who really cares that that dvd from 2001 won't read anymore. So what? Pull out one of the other 15 copies made at other points in time on other machines on other media of the same archive.

If you have "one" archive of something and it goes bad....and it's your "only" archive....especially after a few years down the road...as I say, remind me to never ask you to do any archiving for me!

---------------------

And on another subject...I have three multitrack machines across the room from the daws. I think the comment about what happens when one actually OWNS all the various types is true.... You simply don't think in terms of the reels or daws being "better". You just sort of use whatever's there based on your experience of what works best for a given project. One doesn't stand out over the other ...except....I will NEVER miss the days of used razor blades on tape. Good riddance to those days! I hated that.
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