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-   -   Dynaudio bm15a,adams3a KnH o300d and barefoot MM27 (https://gearspace.com/board/high-end/68857-dynaudio-bm15a-adams3a-knh-o300d-barefoot-mm27.html)

Reptil 1st December 2007 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marineville (Post 1636693)
Well I had a listen to the ATC SCM20s and really didn't like them. Compared to the K+H 0300 with 0800 sub I thought they were flat and lifeless. The PMC AML1s were a surprise though being surprisingly detailed, but again didn't stack up against the Klein + Hummels to my ears. I would still love to hear some Barefoots but there really isn't any chance of that happening so I have some Focal SM11s coming over next week for audition instead. Horribly expensive here in the UK but I feel I need to hear the difference to the K+H (if any) before I reach for my cheque book.

Any thoughts on the MM27 compared to the Focal SM11?

Flat and lifeless? heh
mmm interesting. in my room (fairly big 5x8 mtr, high ceiling, lots of wood, oak floor) a pair of small ATC really shine. I heard some bigger ones in a highend setup some time ago, in a simular shaped room too, same experience, very clear. But the mini ATC (plus subs) are a bit lacking in midrange, and my K&H are old and a bit tired. So I'll need something else. Please keep the info coming? BTW Livingstone had a (older) pair of Focals, which he replaced for PMCs. Don't know the specific numbers, his studio opening soon, he'll probably post more.
Thank you.

howdy

The Beatsmith 1st December 2007 07:16 PM

I have the S3A's, and have to echo what has been said about the adams - they are tools, not wow factor monitors. Your mixes sound amazing on other systems, once you've mixed them with the S3A's. I love how my mixes translate, now.

If i'm going to just listen to music for fun, i'd rather be in living room with a pair £350 B&W floor standers or something, rather than the S3A's - UNLESS it's an absolute killer mix.

At my studio, I have S3A's and NS10's... they are TOOLS to help me get stuff done, not really that 'fun'! Would never get rid of them... i could understand buying a 3rd pair or speakers for pleasing clients/fun, but i don't have that cash lying around, or the need!!

kfhkh

Marineville 1st December 2007 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptil (Post 1666367)
Flat and lifeless? heh

I know, just my ears probably. cooge Different strokes and all that. I much prefer the K+H with sub. Lovely, full sound with lots of detail without being boring. My only concern is that I am about to make a purchase without having heard the Barefoot MM27s. wworried

By the way the SM11 idea has been dropped but I did get to audition the Focal Twin6 with sub. Very nice, very open, but my mixes on them compared to the K+H were not as good I didn't think. The K+Hs seem to suit my style better.

Reptil 1st December 2007 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marineville (Post 1666529)
......snip.... My only concern is that I am about to make a purchase without having heard the Barefoot MM27s. wworried

Exactly the same feeling here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marineville (Post 1666529)
..snip... The K+Hs seem to suit my style better.

I sure love my old K&Hs. they lack umpf though. going by your and other posts, with a sub it's better.

Marineville 2nd December 2007 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptil (Post 1666562)
I sure love my old K&Hs. they lack umpf though. going by your and other posts, with a sub it's better.

With the sub they go plenty loud enough, and that's coming from a drummer!

They really do open up with the sub. I have the K+H 0800 here at the moment and it was very easy to integrate into the system. Basically I just plugged it in and turned it down a bit. I really like the crossover point between the mains and the sub, or rather I can't actually hear a crossover point, just the full audio picture.

Very, very nice ...

Mats 2nd December 2007 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixerguy (Post 1504975)
anyone else wanna chime in?

for the record - I REALLY don't like the Adams that I have heard - they sound honky to me....

YMMV

peachh

This is my thoughts too, they sound a little honky in the mid. (S2A) I don´t know what to make of that, are they bad sounding or revealing?

I´m going to have a listen to the KH O300 next week for the first time, and i´m very exited since i´ve heard so much good things about them.

I have to say, even if i think the Genelec 8040 is a bit muddy, they sound really even and flat to me. I find it´s easy to get a mix right, low-mid-hi wize if you know what i mean. Does it really matter that much if monitors wont reveal everything superclear? I mean it´s not like, in one speaker a specific sound can´t be heard and in another that same sound jumps out and bites you in the nose. To me the end result can´t differ that much. The flatness of a speaker must be much more important IMO? Sorry for hijacking.

The Beatsmith 2nd December 2007 02:33 AM

how can monitors be muddy AND really flat and even?hittt

Fleaman 2nd December 2007 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith (Post 1667263)
how can monitors be muddy AND really flat and even?hittt

Transients (low end especially) vs. frequency response.

Marineville 2nd December 2007 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats (Post 1667172)
I mean it´s not like, in one speaker a specific sound can´t be heard and in another that same sound jumps out and bites you in the nose.

In my opinion it's more to do with what speaker fits your ears. No amount of reading about them is the same as actually hearing them (as I have found out) but it can give you a rough idea as to what you might expect to hear!

Hope you like the K+H 0300Ds by the way cooge

Mats 2nd December 2007 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith (Post 1667263)
how can monitors be muddy AND really flat and even?hittt

By flat i mean an even level of low-mid-high frequencies.

To me, the opposite is a monitor that may be revealing and may have a high-definition in the midrange, like some Event or NHT monitors for example. They seem to have a boost in that specific area which makes them good for mixing ie vocals, guitars etc, but difficult to get the overall mix right. IOW you have to guess to a sertent extent, and that i don´t care for.

8040 compared to the S2a, seems a bit muddy to me. Also having more bass freq. makes a speaker more "muddy" in a way.

The Beatsmith 2nd December 2007 04:00 PM

it's just semantics really, but my point was that if it's muddy, it must have a boost of certain bass frequencies, making it muddy. therefore it can't really be at all 'flat' and 'even'

</anal>

Mats 2nd December 2007 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marineville (Post 1667669)
In my opinion it's more to do with what speaker fits your ears. No amount of reading about them is the same as actually hearing them (as I have found out) but it can give you a rough idea as to what you might expect to hear!

Hope you like the K+H 0300Ds by the way cooge

I know, but as a non professionall it´s sometimes hard to know what to make of what you hear. Most often it´s a clear difference but without a clear "winner", as it is with most of the gear you know. The question if a monitor is revealing or just bad sounding seems to be difficult to seperate.

I´ve gone from Event/NS-10 to Genelec to ADAM (and soon the KH.) Each time the music seems more transparant and defined. I guess that´s what its about.mezed

Seamus TM 2nd December 2007 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edham (Post 1622993)
Quested - the S range is my bang for the buck winner. open sounding - no hype no scoop and priced right. The larger 3 ways are a thing a beauty.

We have a pair of Quested S8 in the studio right now.
Our plan, originally, was to try the Twin6 and, maybe, the P33 as well....
I don't know if we are even going to bother.
It's only been a few days, but I am seriously impressed with these speakers.
The worst thing about them is that they will make me want to buy some more versitile eq (we have all stepped eq's on our desk that don't address certain frequencies), since they allow me to hear what's going on so much better.

Mats 2nd December 2007 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith (Post 1668044)
it's just semantics really, but my point was that if it's muddy, it must have a boost of certain bass frequencies, making it muddy. therefore it can't really be at all 'flat' and 'even'

</anal>

To me the Genelecs are easier to get the overall mix right, which to me makes them somewhat even in the freq. response. Maybe i´ve gotten this all wrong but that´s how i see it. With the S2A´s it wasn´t as easy due to the missouts in the low end and the "brighter" high´s. So therefor i had to guess a little when mixing, though hearing some sounds a little clearer in the mid-hi range. They have the ART tweeter, which makes them sound very defined and superclear,(eventhough somewhat "honky") quite the difference i would say to the 8040´s. The ADAM´s are very impressive IMO, but harder to get the overal mix the way i want it. The 8040´s also goes down deeper in the low end.

Maybe i´m way off, but i like to hear it sounds good on my monitors and going after a good sounding mix. I don´t really like the idea that " it doesn´t sound as bad in the car or in someones homestereo setup" I´ve heard that been said several times (and that has to do with the low-high boost everyone does on their stereos) Flat don´t mean necessery good or bad sounding. It just mean an even frequence curve.

Marineville 2nd December 2007 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats (Post 1668180)
TI don´t really like the idea that " it doesn´t sound as bad in the car or in someones homestereo setup" .

Well the answer to that is to get yourself a pair of Avantone MixCubes or JBL Control 1s as well so that you can switch over to them and check how your mix will sound on the average TV/radio/iPod speaker etc. Always good to have a second reference, and in fact lots of people use a standard ghetto blaster (with aux inputs of course) for just this purpose.

Mats 2nd December 2007 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marineville (Post 1668247)
Well the answer to that is to get yourself a pair of Avantone MixCubes or JBL Control 1s as well so that you can switch over to them and check how your mix will sound on the average TV/radio/iPod speaker etc. Always good to have a second reference, and in fact lots of people use a standard ghetto blaster (with aux inputs of course) for just this purpose.

Actually i was going to get the Mixcubes and maybe the Adam A7 for a second and third monitoring. I believe i´ll have the Mixcubes by tomorrow.
Anyhow, maybe we(I) should stop hijacking this thread and get back to the original topic. Sorry for interviening

Fleaman 2nd December 2007 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith (Post 1668044)
it's just semantics really, but my point was that if it's muddy, it must have a boost of certain bass frequencies, making it muddy. therefore it can't really be at all 'flat' and 'even'

</anal>

No, it's not semantics.

You can have a speaker that measures flat and even...no freq boost in the bass freq and still have a speaker with muddy bass.

How? With poor transients on the low end you get sloppiness, the woofer can't keep up with the bass freq movements...it doesn't follow them as it should...this would also be called distortion. This can and usually makes it sound muddy.

Freq response doesn't measure transients or distortion. This is why you see so many speakers (cheap and expensive, small and big) that show a freq response flat down to say 40hz +/- 1db, yet some speakers do that with very low distortion and other speakers have lots of distortion. SPL level has a lot to do with it too. Cheaper and/or underpowered speakers can maybe go low with low distortion at very low SPL levels. Once you start to raise the spl, low end distortion goes Way up. This is what usually separates the great expensive speakers from the cheap ones, their ability to play flat down to say 40hz at high spl's and low distortion.

The one with good transients and low distortion will be tighter (less muddy) than the one with poor transients and high distortion....yet they may both measure flat to 40hz at a particular SPL level.

Reptil 3rd December 2007 06:46 PM

that makes sense.
for me (only ?) flat means "forward", no depth. brash, loud like a PA.
an even freq. response I'd say is "even". so then I hope I'll not confuse ppl..

but then the ATCs are really forward sounding monitors, at least the ones I heard, however they have plenty of depth when set up properly. (makes more difference I noticed then when setting up the K&H which seem to be more forgiving (stereo field etc.) Also the ATCs really really need a good amplifier. (currently K&H, it seems to suit these) Also as said, my room is not muddy but does have a lot of wood, and appearantly needs forward sounding monitors. Those are my findings in a (very) specific situation. (not everyone's CR is 4,5 mtr. high) This experience matches an encounter with ATC before, under simular circumstances. ATCs in studios here are rarer than hen's teeth.

My old K&H are "softer" sounding. Also detailed but one has to "listen into"them more. IME the o300s are a bit more forward, they have different drivers.

I'm gravitating torwards the ATCs (if I can find a nice deal), but will compare somehow the o300s (and maybe the o410) and if possible the Barefoots. There is no particular rush, the current setup is good enough to do work on (which initially surprised both me and my customers - "how can such small enclosures produce such a big sound??" heppy), and I'll have to fix a few other things first, before allowing myself to put energy into a new set of monitors. So, I'll keep on reading your posts, with interest, and maybe later start a new thread on the ATC issue. Any insight is helpful.
thumbsup

Reptil 3rd December 2007 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblesound (Post 1668134)
We have a pair of Quested S8 in the studio right now.
Our plan, originally, was to try the Twin6 and, maybe, the P33 as well....
I don't know if we are even going to bother.
It's only been a few days, but I am seriously impressed with these speakers.
The worst thing about them is that they will make me want to buy some more versitile eq (we have all stepped eq's on our desk that don't address certain frequencies), since they allow me to hear what's going on so much better.

I've had some experience with the VS2108, on stands, impressive.
The S8 is simular? (higher max SPL in specs) What made you decide for this particular model?

Seamus TM 3rd December 2007 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptil (Post 1670587)
I've had some experience with the VS2108, on stands, impressive.
The S8 is simular? (higher max SPL in specs) What made you decide for this particular model?

Well, honestly?
I didn't feel like going through the crazy hassle of trying 3 or 4 different sets of monitors that would all be just fine.

The Questeds were the first ones we tried. We like them a great deal, and can already tell that they will be a great impovement to our set up. They are an amazing set of speakers. Why go through the agony?

Great balance. Great imaging. Lots of clean power. They seem to be translating very well.
Search over.

I know, not very slutty of me.

Marineville 3rd December 2007 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblesound (Post 1671274)
Why go through the agony?

'Cos the others might suit you better! Personally I was amazed at how speakers could be at the same price point and yet sound so different from each other.

But if you're happy with the Questeds that's great!thumbsup

Seamus TM 4th December 2007 12:11 AM

Yeah, I hear you.
The S8's are fantastic, don't get me wrong.
I don't feel like we are settling.
They do everything that I want them to do, so why keep looking?

The one thing I will say is that they are not magical client rockers.
That's fine with me, though.
They rock me just fine.

Marineville 4th December 2007 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblesound (Post 1671392)
They rock me just fine.

That is the main thing!hooppie

Reptil 4th December 2007 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblesound (Post 1671392)
.........The one thing I will say is that they are not magical client rockers.
That's fine with me, though.
They rock me just fine.

funny that you say that, in a lot of cases it's or not and.
and these ppl. are not consumers, but musicians. (also used to "scooped"?)
thanks for the comments
cheers!

btw, found some stuff on GS about ATCs, they do sound good off axis, after setting up. I was planning to put a pair next to the synth stack, extra, but there's no need. I can hear everything there just fine. they did not like other monitors close to them, much better on their own.
going to try also with stands soon.. heh

Seamus TM 4th December 2007 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptil (Post 1671487)
funny that you say that, in a lot of cases it's or not and.
and these ppl. are not consumers, but musicians. (also used to "scooped"?)
thanks for the comments
cheers!


I apologize, but I'm not sure what you mean...

Reptil 4th December 2007 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblesound (Post 1671795)
I apologize, but I'm not sure what you mean...

no need to apologise, I wasn't very clear maybe. I had the same experience mostly.
what I mean is that what monitors are nice to work on aren't always "exciting" to the average listener. often ppl. are used to and like "scooped".You can't have both, with most monitors. maybe some are different. but to me that is equally not important enough to base a choice on. that's all. heh

Seamus TM 5th December 2007 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptil (Post 1673423)
no need to apologise, I wasn't very clear maybe. I had the same experience mostly.
what I mean is that what monitors are nice to work on aren't always "exciting" to the average listener. often ppl. are used to and like "scooped".You can't have both, with most monitors. maybe some are different. but to me that is equally not important enough to base a choice on. that's all. heh

Exactly. I totally agree.
This has been my experience with the Questeds.
I got my first real chance to do a mix on them today.
It was a project that I tracked with my old monitors (Event 20/20bas), and the
S8's showed me exactly what I did wrong.
The Events had nothing to say about it.
I haven't listened to the mix at home, yet, but I've never got the bass region to translate this well in my car ever before.
I am very impressed.

Marineville 5th December 2007 07:30 PM

A nice man came today to take all the speakers away that I have been testing. He took the AdamsS3A, PMC AML1, ATC SCM20, Genelec 1032 and Focal Twin6 with sub.

The Klein + Hummel 0300Ds and sub are still here ... I wouldn't let him take them.

stardustmedia 6th December 2007 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marineville (Post 1675236)
The Klein + Hummel 0300Ds and sub are still here ... I wouldn't let him take them.

The best choice you possibly could have done, believe me kfhkh

matucha 6th December 2007 01:34 PM

As I expressed my negative opinion about BM15A earlier, yesterday I had chance to listen (nothing more) to BM6A at my place and I was pleasantly surprised. They were a bit scooped in the mids (but what isn't when you are used to S3A), they had good dynamics and fuller sounding bass than S3A. Dunno those BM15A should have been broken or what.

Another pair that I've heard yesterday were P11A. Surprisingly I didn't hear a lot less bass than S3A had, but the highs with room eq (6kHz shelf) on 0dB were a bit too much. -1 -2dB on that eq put them in line with rest of the speakers (with dynaudio beeing a bit brighter than s3a). P11A didn't sound as full and detailed as S3A, but it was very close... not bad at all.


well that was just a listening, there was no time do do even basic mix on them so take it as is...

BTW dynaudios were closer to what I remember about KH character than adam line. But KH were more dynamic and powerfull.