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Creating and applying real room reverb
Old 20th May 2003
  #1
Gear Nut
 
Dynodawg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Creating and applying real room reverb

I havn't been happy with any of the room reverbs on my Mackie D8B, so I've been experimenting with the old trick of micing a monitor in my live room at a distance of 12'. I took an aux send of the desired tracks and run them out to another small mixer in my live room. I was shocked to hear how real it sounded when compared to the digital room verbs. I live in a 4,500 sf. log home with a huge, all wood great room that has a 20' cathedral ceiling. This room is about a 150' run from my studio, but I'm going to try using it as a "room" reverb chamber next.

I'd like to get some feedback about this from some of you guys with experience in this area and the way you run it thru your board at mixdown. I was going to try it with a jecklin disc for a stereo set up.
Old 21st May 2003
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I say try it a lot of ways. Mono, stereo, mics facing the speakers from a distance, mic as high as the stand goes right over the speakers, mics facing the walls etc,etc,etc.
Old 21st May 2003
  #3
Lives for gear
 
drundall's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Just did this a few days ago. I used a small room returning in mono on the snare to thicken it up. Experiment with different setups. Try a smaller room or reamping the drums through a guitar amp in a small room (kitchen or bathroom).
Old 21st May 2003
  #4
I have been a fan of this 'real' room type of ambience / reverb for a long time...

I use it when I get the chance..

At Sawmills Studio, Cornwall, UK I have used "Creek reverb" by blasting signal out to the opposite hills with a power amp and a 4 x 12 then used a mic down by the jetty to pick up the 'bounce back'

Recomended!

Old 21st May 2003
  #5
Lives for gear
 
littledog's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Sometimes if you are lucky you can save yourself a step by simply tracking one or two distant room mics along with your original closer-mic'ed source tracks. Experimenting in your particular configuration of rooms can yield interesting results - sometimes even having the mics out in the hall, around the corner, or in a neighboring room might be what works.

Worst case secenario is you don't get anything useable and so you just discard them and go on to Plan B. But you might end up saving yourself the whole reamping process.
Old 22nd May 2003
  #6
Gear Nut
 
Dynodawg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I would imagine that tracking, (say a vocal), thru an ambiant room mic during the performance would sound better than re amping it. Yes or no?

But the advantage to re amping is you can apply it to any of the tracks at mixdown thru an aux send.

Dyno
Old 25th May 2003
  #7
box
Gear Nut
 
box's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
so i am just finishing up my studio and there is a 12 ft. X 8 ft. and 6.5 ft tall space above the bathroom.
at this point, this space is useless and i wonder if it wouldn't be too small to build some sort of echo chamber out of. if anyone has suggestions for good shapes or sizes and surface material to use within those dementions let me know
Old 26th May 2003
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Dynodawg say: "I would imagine that tracking, (say a vocal), thru an ambiant room mic during the performance would sound better than re amping it. Yes or no?"

Depends on the mic, mic placement, and room. Done really well in a sweet room, hard to beat. But I have to say that even having tracked in a "great room" (as they're called in the log home racket) apparently just like the one you describe (ours was 30x40 with the high ceiling and exposed logs, my own 24x30 with flat wood paneling ain't big enough), which I have recently, I'm still dizzy with the idea of doing some grand outdoor scheme like Jules mentioned! Of course, you'd mix that in with the original vocal track. And you'd try for mostly reflected sound, not the direct speaker sound of the re-amped vocal.

I've always said I bought an 80 acre reverb, I have to put it to the test!
Old 26th May 2003
  #9
Gear Head
 
nick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by box
so i am just finishing up my studio and there is a 12 ft. X 8 ft. and 6.5 ft tall space above the bathroom...
box - found this in my bookmarks. hope its of some use.

Echo Chambers
Old 26th May 2003
  #10
Gear Nut
 
Dynodawg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Here's a Quote from the article nick provided on echo chambers...

"As a matter of fact they were so pervasive that we still use Ma Bell's transmission line standards for virtually all recording equipment. They used to be called Class A Lines.

The current term is Radio and TV Broadcast Lines, and they're guaranteed out to 15 KHZ. The cost of R/TV quality lines is wildly variable over long distances, but for a run of a few miles two unbalanced stereo pairs would probably double your phone bill. Not cheap, but it's a resource.

If you can get direct wiring, an old trick for monaural drive is to use two balanced pairs, and hang the drive line on one leg of each balanced pair. It's called a phantom line, and you get one free line for every line you buy starting with two at the cost of a couple of transformers per phantom. In other words 3 lines for 2 and 47 for 24. Class A 'phone lines solve the problems of available space and noisy environments at affordable cost even when nothing can be found in the neighborhood, and since a live chamber is not intrinsically expensive, the remote realie becomes a practical proposition."



I wonder how feasable it really is to do this over telephone lines to a remote location. Could I actually send a line level signal from my mixer to some church or wharehouse 30 miles away and return it from a stereo pair back over the phone lines to my studio?

Dyno
Old 26th May 2003
  #11
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Strart like this_: put a speaker in the room, move it around untill it sounds good to you, Walk around the room untill that speaker sounds better than you'd originally thought it would, put a mike there. If you want it to sound farther away put a delay on it. For stereo, put a stereo delay on it and cross feed different delay times back to the speaker untill it sound right for the piece that you're working on. Rooms are often confused with "early reflection" you can creeate these if you have enough channels to play with. It's a great Reggae vibe. Metered echos and plates all influencing each other. I've had ten faders on a board all dedicated to echo sends from and to different metered echos and ambient spaces.
(8x12x 6.5) Theres something called wonderboard (styrofoam and cement in 4'x2' boards), if you stucco it with cement and put a mic. and a speaker on the same wall seperated by another construction or panel the your room becomes twice as large. Better yet stick a speaker in a top corner and the mic. in the corner below and to the left, then your room becomes 3x as large. If it's not big enough, use a delay on the return. You can forget about effective realistic stereo, it's better to synthesize it some how (I believe this for room mics. also)
If you buy ten rolls of wire and hook them together you can have some kind of delay. The sync head outputs work well as predelay.
A room is a room, by what other name would it sound as sweet?
Old 26th May 2003
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
ultima's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I am actually doing a whole record with real reverbs.

I do it the reamp way, that is i set up three different amps around the complex and seven mics at different positions around the building and then i just send the element that i want reverb on into one of the amps and choose a return mic.

The mics used were one soundfield mic and the rest was a few Cad´s , a neumann and some old Ev omni´s

Usually i will record at least two and sometimes more in order to have some space to change my mind after the fact.

Im very lucky with the spaces as i have the booth as well as a big open space outside the booth and then i have this long hallway and also a big space where we have a staircase.

I also mic´ed the kitchen and the toilet..hehe

From what i have learned so far , the most important lesson is knowing what real reverb sounds like on instruments in isolation.
Something i havent really had a chance to examine closely before.

The hallway has proven great for supplying reverb for the whole kit although it was sent through a peavey guitar amp.
I set up three mics in various depths in the hallway and chose one of them.

The kitchen was awesome for some extra slam on a snare and kick , i also like the longer reverbs for more of an effect on individual drum sounds.

This had been a valuable lesson in creating a different snare sound with reverbs (gated long reverbs mixed with a close mic´d cabinet for some bite)

The band im recording use a lot of ambiances (space echos, analog delays and such) and to run them through this process to diffuse them and get different depths has proven awesome beyond description.

For the guitars i tried setting up the soundfield mic to actually capture the depth i wanted for the track in question , that is i tried and move the mic and/or the cabinet between takes to provide a different position adn depth of each instrument run through the setup.

While interesting its hard to make such decisions while on a "science session" rather then doing the mixing.

Althoug i went a bit overboard (i have 20-30 reverb tracks on each tune waiting to be used or canned) i found it to be a very interesting experiment and a VERY usable one compared to some of my other adventures in audio..

Loads of fun and obviously VERY organic.

A touch of digital reverb was also used to get small spread on the mono verbs, even though i was pretty reluctant as i wanted only real reverbs on the album but....hey...
Old 26th May 2003
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
ultima, I'd love to hear that band! Crazy crap coming out of iceland these days..
Old 28th May 2003
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
palebluedot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I've been having great fun recently on an industrial album I'm programming.
I've been taking sounds like drum loops(rythmic stuff generally)
and micing it up in different rooms at diffrenent distances. Once I've got a load I can really play, it sounds brilliant, I've also been using for little one bar drops etc.

Ok I know from a phase cancellation perspective its not ideal but a bit of work is well worth it. Better than any lexicon from an effects perspective.

Regards
n
Old 29th May 2003
  #15
Gear Nut
 
Dynodawg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I threw a jeklin disc in the toilet of my studio outfitted with 2 octava mc012's thru 2 Telefunken V76's and cranked up the sends from a monitor 25' away in my live room. I could not believe my ears. Best sound I've come up with so far. Totally killer on the drum kit. The heck with the digi box verbs. I'm going to put my money toward renting a backhoe and burying some big concrete pipe out there in the horse pasture.

Havin lots o' fun

Dyno thumbsup
Old 29th May 2003
  #16
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
For a real verb on accoustic sources, vocals, accoustics, and amps I've had good sucess with using an 87 in figure 8 along with the main mic and putting the 87 a little higher and slightly behind the main mic and having the back of the figure 8 point up at the corner of the high ceiling in the tracking room. I mix them to taste and get a nice natural subtle type of verb. On kits we have taken to putting an 87 in omni above the kit and micing only the bottom of the snare and the inside of the kick and a LD condenser a few feet in front of the kick pointed at the top of the kick rim. No stereo overheads and the 87 gives us some nice verb being returned from the walls of the room. Take care Logan
Old 1st June 2003
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lots of drum reverb success stories, what has worked for people on vox?
Old 2nd June 2003
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
ultima's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
yeah ,,, Battle angel ill post an Mp3 when we have a temp mix going.
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