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Electrodyne 511 question: Peaking/Shelving characteristics?
Old 14th November 2009
  #1
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airmate's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Electrodyne 511 question: Peaking/Shelving characteristics?

I am sooo close to purchasing a pair of Electrodyne 511's. They look amazing! The 500 cassettes I have been waiting for all the time...

However, today I have read the following specs on the Pete's Place Audio website:

4 frequencies selectable per band. LF: 40, 100, 250, 500hz. HF: 1.5k, 3k, 5k, 10k.
Peak/Shelf function on each band. Shelving at all frequencies, Peaking at 250, 500, 1.5k, 3k and 5k.


Can somebody confirm that Peaking is indeed not available at all corner frequencies?

And, just as important: Why would that be? It doesn't really make sense to me.

Thanks in advance!
Old 14th November 2009
  #2
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I spoke to the designer of the new Electrodyne 511's, Ken Hirsch and this is the response he sent me:


Recording consoles of the 60s had very simple two-band, fixed-frequency, shelving-only eq per channel or maybe if the studio had extra money the eq,s had selectable frequencies.
If you found you need to make more extreme alterations to the sound than the console channel eq could provide, you either patched to a "special" eq (Pultec MEQ5 or similar) if you were lucky enough to afford one, or much more likely, you changed the mic or moved its position.

The idea of peaking and shelving on each band and every frequency, and using multiple bands of 15db (or more) of cut and boost to correct recording problems, originally came from early corporate owned British recording studios, where microphones were selected, and positioned, within very strict and limited studio rules by a studio employee, and the person operating the recording console was not allowed to move or change microphones to alter the sound.
As a result, the need for extreme and occasionally unnatural equalization to achieve a useful sound from each mic became the norm, and console manufacturers in Britain designed their channel eq,s to overcome the studio rules. This became part of the legendary "British Sound" of the 60,s and 70,s.

The Electrodyne 511 eq was designed in the tradition of a deluxe, full featured 60,s console channel eq when experienced American recording engineers began to record with more channels at the same time, and needed a more flexible channel eq to fully (and gently) shape the mix.
With this experience they asked console manufacturers for only the most used (and needed) functions, and nothing more, combined into those two bands.
If they found they still couldn't get what they needed with that, they were either using the wrong mic or positioning and changed it, or they worked directly with the performer and their instrument to correct the sound.
Old 14th November 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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airmate's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for the explanation!
This is no deal breaker for me at all, I was just curious.
Old 15th November 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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elmolemon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Are ypu planing to buy these for the 2bus?

I'm just interested as i read that you were thinking about buying a pair of the new Eisen/Purple LILPEQR for the 2bus.
Old 15th November 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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Silvertone's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➑️
I spoke to the designer of the new Electrodyne 511's, Ken Hirsch and this is the response he sent me:


Recording consoles of the 60s had very simple two-band, fixed-frequency, shelving-only eq per channel or maybe if the studio had extra money the eq,s had selectable frequencies.
If you found you need to make more extreme alterations to the sound than the console channel eq could provide, you either patched to a "special" eq (Pultec MEQ5 or similar) if you were lucky enough to afford one, or much more likely, you changed the mic or moved its position.

The idea of peaking and shelving on each band and every frequency, and using multiple bands of 15db (or more) of cut and boost to correct recording problems, originally came from early corporate owned British recording studios, where microphones were selected, and positioned, within very strict and limited studio rules by a studio employee, and the person operating the recording console was not allowed to move or change microphones to alter the sound.
As a result, the need for extreme and occasionally unnatural equalization to achieve a useful sound from each mic became the norm, and console manufacturers in Britain designed their channel eq,s to overcome the studio rules. This became part of the legendary "British Sound" of the 60,s and 70,s.

The Electrodyne 511 eq was designed in the tradition of a deluxe, full featured 60,s console channel eq when experienced American recording engineers began to record with more channels at the same time, and needed a more flexible channel eq to fully (and gently) shape the mix.
With this experience they asked console manufacturers for only the most used (and needed) functions, and nothing more, combined into those two bands.
If they found they still couldn't get what they needed with that, they were either using the wrong mic or positioning and changed it, or they worked directly with the performer and their instrument to correct the sound.
Hi Tony,

Please call Ken a "re-designer" of the Electrodyne gear... the original designers are still alive. Well at least John Hall and Don McLaughlin are. The only difference Ken did was add the shelf on the low EQ, on the Edyne 710L's and up the shelf is there on the high band.

Also my 1968 Electrodyne ACC 1204 console has the 712L modules which have 9 bands of EQ to access all at once (12 bands total really)... so even though most consoles of the day were limited to two or three bands there were other options starting to happen at the time.

Even with just two bands like the 709,710 and 711 modules these EQ smoke a lot of what is out there... musical with vibe for days!!!

Thanks for the info Tony...

Funny as Ken called just last week to find out what a pair of Langevin 712 EQ modules (not the same as Electrodyne 712L's) would be worth... I had to laugh at that one!
Old 15th November 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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airmate's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmolemon ➑️
Are ypu planing to buy these for the 2bus?

I'm just interested as i read that you were thinking about buying a pair of the new Eisen/Purple LILPEQR for the 2bus.
No, I usually never use EQ on the stereo buss. It's great to have that option as well, but I prefer EQs on individual tracks and sub groups.

The Electrodynes have stepped attenuators / rotary switches. From a practical point of view this is a huge plus in comparison to the LilPeQrs - stereo matching, recallability... That's the main reason why I prefer the Electrodynes. And I'm sure as hell they'll sound killer!
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #7
Nrt
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Wondering how they are different from Langevin 251A.
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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elmolemon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmate ➑️
No, I usually never use EQ on the stereo buss. It's great to have that option as well, but I prefer EQs on individual tracks and sub groups.

The Electrodynes have stepped attenuators / rotary switches. From a practical point of view this is a huge plus in comparison to the LilPeQrs - stereo matching, recallability... That's the main reason why I prefer the Electrodynes. And I'm sure as hell they'll sound killer!


But are you sure that the Electrodynes have stepped controls? I haven't found any info that they are, but maybe i'm too blind..
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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airmate's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmolemon ➑️


But are you sure that the Electrodynes have stepped controls? I haven't found any info that they are, but maybe i'm too blind..
Yes, I am absolutely sure. I have double checked that with Vintage King.
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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fragletrollet's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
what happens if you select PEAK band in one of the frequencies that only supports shelf? It just acts as shelf?
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Silvertone's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmolemon ➑️


But are you sure that the Electrodynes have stepped controls? I haven't found any info that they are, but maybe i'm too blind..
Yep, stepped controls, just like the originals.
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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elmolemon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Great! Thank you for making this clear.

That makes them even more interesting.
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #13
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmolemon ➑️


But are you sure that the Electrodynes have stepped controls? I haven't found any info that they are, but maybe I'm too blind..
i am late to the table but as mentioned yes they do have stepped controls : )~
although i have other EQs i am using on two buss, i would have no problems strapping a pair of these across for buss duty.
Old 15th October 2010
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Mixing Suite's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Forgive me if I missed this somewhere, does anyone know how many db. each step is on the 511?
Old 15th October 2010 | Show parent
  #15
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyHoliday ➑️
Forgive me if I missed this somewhere, does anyone know how many db. each step is on the 511?


If you look at the picture you will see they are in 2dB increments.
Attached Thumbnails
Electrodyne 511 question: Peaking/Shelving characteristics?-electrodyne-501-511.png  
Old 15th October 2010 | Show parent
  #16
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Mixing Suite's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks tony, I did notice the 2db. markings however, I wassnt sure if there would be steps in between since there seems to be quite a bit of room to work within the 2db. markings. However I do not know what the inside looks like nor am I a tech. It just seems 1db. steps would maybe make it a little more flexible as a sweetener, but I do understand this build was to stay true to the original which I may add I have 0 experience with. Are mods possible with the 511? maybe -6db to +6db, or twice the steps per knob for the 1db. increments?
Old 15th October 2010 | Show parent
  #17
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyHoliday ➑️
Thanks tony, I did notice the 2db. markings however, I wassnt sure if there would be steps in between since there seems to be quite a bit of room to work within the 2db. markings. However I do not know what the inside looks like nor am I a tech. It just seems 1db. steps would maybe make it a little more flexible as a sweetener, but I do understand this build was to stay true to the original which I may add I have 0 experience with. Are mods possible with the 511? maybe -6db to +6db, or twice the steps per knob for the 1db. increments?
We've never moded the steps. In order to really hear what it does for your music, you should give it a try. The EQ is so broad that 4 dB at 10k does not hurt your ears. It's gentle and musical.
Old 15th October 2010 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
Mixing Suite's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➑️
you should give it a try. The EQ is so broad that 4 dB at 10k does not hurt your ears. It's gentle and musical.

Hold you to that. I think I'll give it a go.
Old 15th October 2010 | Show parent
  #19
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➑️
We've never moded the steps. In order to really hear what it does for your music, you should give it a try. The EQ is so broad that 4 dB at 10k does not hurt your ears. It's gentle and musical.
ditto!
i very sweet EQ!
one of my favorites: )~
heh
Old 25th March 2011
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
Frenchie Smith's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Dear Slutz
I'm in the early stages of using the 511 eq.
It's really magical!
Shelving up 1.5 is really great on electric guitar...
(sg into a Fender Deluxe...mic'd with Wunder CM7, to an API inboard pre, 511)
It even made sources sound cooler when you put it in a chain, engage the unit without boosting for cutting freq....
It really is lovely...
If a 500 series eq is needed about your place.....
This couldn't be any cooler
Frenchie
They've really put some magic in this
Old 2nd April 2011 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Head
 
orphanaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Please call Ken a "re-designer" of the Electrodyne gear... the original designers are still alive. Well at least John Hall and Don McLaughlin are. The only difference Ken did was add the shelf on the low EQ, on the Edyne 710L's and up the shelf is there on the high band.
Actually the Electrodyne 709/710 eq,s have no peak/shelf function.
It is the 711 that has switchable peak/shelf, and it is present on both bands.

The 511 eq follows the earlier 711 eq design, but with specific circuit changes implemented as noted in original factory engineering documents. The eq network with John Hall's subtle, but significant engineering changes is combined with a more powerful output stage, usually associated with the final bus output stage of a full size Electrodyne console.
The combination was then optimized for +/-15 volt rails in the 500 series racks, maximum bandwidth (currently limited to 200khz), max output before distortion (.1%[email protected]), and careful attention to LF rolloff, in order to avoid subsonic overload (below 5hz) of downstream gear when the eq is set for extreme LF boosts.
This yields a full power output of +30dbm as opposed to the maximum output of only +16db from all previous channel eq,s.

What we carefully avoided was arbitrarily "re-designing" anything. No changes were made unless they were based on Electrodyne engineers comments, suggestions and notes, and original Electrodyne console owner/operator feedback. They were then prototyped, measured and only implemented if they were found to specifically alleviate performance issues present in early designs, or to allow proper operation when connected to modern recording gear, and most importantly, only if they did not change the original valued sonics of the design.

Quote:
Funny as Ken called just last week to find out what a pair of Langevin 712 EQ modules (not the same as Electrodyne 712L's) would be worth... I had to laugh at that one!
Not sure about a Langevin 712, (I don't believe that was ever a valid part number for Langevin and there are no references to it in the original factory archives), however we may have chatted about the Quad-Eight 712 active panel mount graphic often used in film desks of the 70,s and 80,s. Perhaps you were thinking about the Langevin 252 or 270 passive graphic?

Still, no-one seems to have a good handle on the value of any of these classic graphics since they are so rare and I am not about to issue an opinion on their value, since I know the extreme cost involved if any of these designs were built today.
I want the available classics gear to remain affordable for as many people as possible. (remember how unreasonably expensive the Fairchild 67O became in the early 90,s?) We have a huge inventory of QEE 712 graphics and will remain flexible on the price to get them into the largest number of young gifted engineers hands as possible.

Last edited by orphanaudio; 2nd April 2011 at 12:41 AM..
Old 2nd April 2011 | Show parent
  #22
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i think i have a smoking article around here on this EQ.

check my web site.
Old 2nd April 2011 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Addict
 
Philip S Bova's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Just got a pair of old (1969) 710L strips. I find it pretty interesting that these old Electrodyne EQs had a low boost of 40Hz. I know that's a pretty standard frequency to have in an EQ nowadays, but back then... the 60's? Weren't most records cut with rolloffs at like 60Hz or even higher? Any insight from Ken Hirsch or Larry Devivo would be appreciated.

Thanks
Old 3rd April 2011
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
Frenchie Smith's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Dear Slutz
Call it "whatever...redesigned... Etc"
Call it "Genius"
It makes rock guitars genius!!
It makes me smile...
This 511 is a miracle
Frenchie
Old 4th April 2011 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Best post EVER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchie Smith ➑️
Dear Slutz
Call it "whatever...redesigned... Etc"
Call it "Genius"
It makes rock guitars genius!!
It makes me smile...
This 511 is a miracle
Frenchie

Frenchie,

Thank YOU!



Peter

A Designs Audio Inc.
www.adesignsaudio.com

Last edited by Peter Montessi; 4th April 2011 at 04:50 AM.. Reason: Gearslutz takes your name out
Old 8th May 2011
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Frenchie Smith's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
This piece just gets more applications the longer I spend time with it.
Boosting 250HZ to a U67 just in front of the bass drum, about 3 feet away, and placed low to the ground is amazing.
Hello Grand Funk!!!!
Frenchie
Old 10th May 2011 | Show parent
  #27
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Mad John's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
WOW Electrodyne 511's!!

I am so in need and want for these EQs!!

Working on a plan to get them ASAP!!!
Old 10th May 2011 | Show parent
  #28
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airmate's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I got a pair of these almost one year ago. They live hard-wired on my drum buss, after an API 2500...

I have buy AT LEAST another pair of these!
Old 19th June 2011 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
What about tracking vocal. I run CM&-GT (K47) via Pacifica...male tenor...but am looking for more low-mid 'beef'...??
Old 24th June 2011
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
Frenchie Smith's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveybouy ➑️
What about tracking vocal. I run CM&-GT (K47) via Pacifica...male tenor...but am looking for more low-mid 'beef'...??
The 250hz is righteous
I wouldn't hesitate to add that value via 511 eq
Best
Frenchie
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