Posted this on another forum and trying to see if anyone here is using the Vipre to warm up and get richer/better tone out of synths, or more especially samples that are already in the computer. While I would like a nice mic pre, most of what I do involves beats and samples/pre-recorded material plus synths that I would like to give an extra richness and make not so sterile sounding. Is it possible to go out of the computer (balanced out) into the Vipre for this effect?

Or would I better off with something like Avalon 747 or perhaps Drawmer 1969 Mercenary? Or just getting Di's like Avalon U5 or whatever?

I'd love to have something like Manley SLAM, but I can't spend that much reasonably. Probably 2500 or so is the limit of whats reasonable to spend at the moment.

I really only deal with synths and samplers for 95 percent of what I do, so thats what I am looking to make sound better. Bass heavy beat based music for the most part.

thanks
Mike

While the VIPRE is a wonderful mic pre, I would probably check into a Crane Song HEDD or a FATSO for what you are trying to do. The HEDD gives you great A/D - D/A converters as well or you could stay in the digital domain, if so desired. The FATSO is analog only but it has a compressor built in. Both units will do what you're looking for, but in a different way.

I tried the fatso and it wasn't exactly what I was looking for. The compressor didn't have enough control for me and I didn't uniformly like the sound of the fatso. Though it was nice for certain things. I actually far preferred the distressor to the fatso because of the amount of control as a compressor the distressor offered. It had a really nice bottom to it on kick drums and gave a "smack" that I really liked.

The fatso was really nice on bass though.

I am recording synths etc into the computer as well though, so I would prefer an actual piece of gear as opposed to lets say the Cranesong(Though if I had the money I would get both)

I think the Cranesong is around 3000+?

Argh. Gear lust when you aren't wealthy is a bad thing

The cransong is an actual piece of gear... I don't know if you think its a plugin or something like that, but its really an ad/da converter with distortion (warmth, toob, tape, whatever you want to call it) added in.

If you knew that, i'm sorry. Your post just made it seem like you thought it was a plugin
Marsh

As you may know, the VIPRE is mono only. So unless all your samples and synths are mono (which would be unusual these days) that kind of limits its usefulness as a sample/synth processor.

However, its such a great preamp - any rationale it takes to buy one is probably excuseable. (e.g. "I hear it's really useful as a mousetrap. I think I'll get two!")

If you're just looking at the Vipre for it's DI capabilities and not as a mic pre, why not just get the GT Ditto. It's supposed to be the DI section of the Vipre. I use a Vipre for tracking certain mono keyboard parts and it sounds great.

I think it would be overkill for your synth tracking. You don't need $2000 of amplification. If you can abandon the mental concept that outboard equipment will make your recordings better, then you'll do fine without it. I mostly do synth and vocal recording, with lots of high $ outboard gear, and while the quality and usefullness generally FAR outweighs software "gear", there's better investments you might be able to make that might impact your mixes much more dramatically than a recording channnel. Such as monitors. Or room treatments. Or even a comfy chair to sit in.


Also, if you can't get the "warm" sounds in your DAW, then you're using the wrong plugins or the right plugs in the wrong way. If you want us to reccomend plugs that "warm", then I can name a few for you. Understand that the "warm" I can get on a computer sounds cheap compared to good analog sourced "warm", but consider whether or not your audience will really care or notice! I generally won't unless a plug is overused and abused (most of the they are). "Warmth" is mostly a lie anyways. Most of the time "warm" is just a gentle LPF or a exciter or as you know, harmonic distortion. All that stuff is easy to achieve, especially with a good LPF.

That Vipre DI (Ditto) is pretty cheap though. DIs do help a lot with synth sounds so if you gotta have your analog fix, then get one of them. Then again, my Avalon U5s are pretty nice and they have an EQ circuit, so that might be better for you. There's lots of U5s on ebay for cheap too.

thanks for the responses

I do know that the HEDD is an actual piece of gear, but it is still a digital processor from my understanding. I haven't heard it so I can't really comment on the sound. I thought it was meant to emulate tape saturation? its also probably a bit above my price limit at the moment.

and I have already paid money and treated my room and I am upgrading my monitors as well. I just know that for the music I do, I am not fully satisfied with _just_ plugins and am looking for something to help make the sound better. The music I do is really just for clubs, so a lot of normal considerations as to being good for radio etc doesn't apply. The majority of what I do is cut to vinyl.

I guess I just hear certain records that have that extra warmth and togetherness using similar samples, and so far I have not found that from any producers I know who only use the computer. I have the UAD plugins and I quite like those, but they just don't seem to be giving the same smoothness, thickness, and togetherness I hear on other records. (and I admit some of it might be user error )

If there isn't any extra benefit to having the vipre preamp over the DI, then that might not be a bad idea. Can anyone comment on the difference?

But as to the stereo samples issue. For most cases I am making the important things mono anyway, and any stereo effects I am creating after the initial sample is there. And usually if its a chorusing or other type effect, I am creating it inside the computer.

Anyway, I appreciate all the suggestions, just trying to get a feel for what people have used in the real world to help give those synths extra bite and that bass that other level of kick.

Mike

Could you get more into this?

I also always wondered if a "high-end" converter like apogee, etc. makes a difference for recording line signals of synthesizers compared to a rme multiface. What do you guys think about that?

Most dance music is recorded on not-so-expensive rigs. I've NEVER met an audio purist dance producer/composer. In clubs, you get all that reverb wash from the hard walls and floors, and it's hard to tell how the mix really sounds anyways. If I were mixing for dance I'd mix as CLEAN as possible to counteract the near-live acoustics.

My guess is that this smoothness you desire comes from mastering, and skillfull mixing and composing. A friend of mine does high profile dance remixes and he does it all on the computer. He usues UAD, and Logic. He makes great sounding dance mixes, some of the best I've heard, and it's done without ANY outboard gear at all. His thickness and "togetherness" in his mixes comes from his ability to use the right FX on the right tracks, correct levels, automation etc.

Outboard might make your stuff sound a little bit better, but you really need to focus on your mixing skills instead. Tones in the mix are that are far more obvious than Class A ampage or analog compression are delay, reverb, panning! If you chorus a lead vocal, then people will notice that immediately, but if you run your mix through a fatso, they'll only notice on an A/B comparison, and most will probably be ambivilant.

So what I'm saying is that it's not the gear, it's you. Not trying to be mean, just realistic.

I think that the Ditto DI is the EXACT same one as in the Vipre.

Sure it'll make a difference. The thing is though, most synths put out crap for signal anyways so a good DI would generally help much more.

Another good DI to check out is the Demeter. Good prices on ebay. Very clear sound-clearer than my U5s.

Plugs that warm (barf this thread has too much use of the word warm):

psp mix saturator
psp vintage warmer
psp mixbass
wavess maxbass
mda subsynth
bbe sonicmaximizer (there's a plug for it)
excitifier
any eq
nomad factory blue tubes plugins
hexaline
cyanide

want more?

well...I know a lot of dance people only use the computer...and its not that I haven't had success with it....

But I want to invest in taking it to the next level and I don't want to _only_ do a certain kind of dance music for eternity. I like a wide range of stuff and want to invest in quality gear.

And as to not using gear.....thats really not true. Timo Maas, who has done some of the biggest remixes and best selling dance records of the bast few years has a studio where he rarely uses plugins. His engineer is amazing and they are always recording in live bass for tracks and list things like George Massenberg EQ and Manley compressors in their studios. High end lexicon reverb. Not cheap stuff.

Or take Miguel Migs who remixed Britney Spears and has done a lot of stuff on Naked Music...the studio he works out of has Cranesong compressors and other high end gear.

So while maybe a lot of the dance records out there aren't using much, _I_ don't want to just sound like that If you listen to people like the Chemical Brothers, their synths are huge and have a body and fullness that you won't get straight out of a digital synth.

And your right as to fine details not being heard on the dance floor, but stuff like how tight the low end is and the amount of headroom you can get makes a big difference. Certain producers records just have that low end thump and thickness to the records that others don't that let their records cut through and work their magic. And things like getting a vocal clear and up front is even more important precisely because you are in a loud club situation.

Anyway, thanks for the different suggestions. After doing some other research I think I am leaning towards a Drawmer 1969 which has DI inputs plus compression...and the "big" switch would be very useful for mixing hip-hop/dance I would think.

Thanks a lot, Faeflora.

I will look into the DI's.

What do you think of the Sony Inflator for w.a.r.m.t.h. ?

Best,

S.H.

I'm enjoying the sound of the Groove Tubes DITTO these days as my #1 DI (also the DI in the Great River NV)...it seems to be identical to the DI section of the Vipre. The Avalon is great, but it seemed to be more in the clean and neutral direction, where the GT and NV both provide character, albeit for different uses.

Wow if the Avalon is clean and neutral compared to the DITTO I gotta hear the Ditto.

BTW thanks for all the gear porn with the hammerfall Nathan. Great bathroom reading material.

I still gotta maintain that analog really isn't neccesary for anything other than mic'd recordings.

I think that the Chemical Brothers use big dense patches. I realllllly don't think it's the analog gear.

I'm saying this from the perspective of having all the analog I want (except for Funkenwerk pres, Manley SLAM, Chandler LTD1, LTD2, LA-2A, Purple 1176, ADAM S-3A, PT HD w/ 6 DSP cards, Crane Song STC-8, and $300,000 of Transparant Audio cabling). I run my synths through happy hot power sucking Class A and tube fryage and it doesn't make all THAT much of a difference. The biggest deal for me for outboard is firstly compression and second EQ. The thing is though, the 1176 and LA-2A and Pultec emulations on the UAD card sound pretty darn good! I'd use em all over my mixes if I was willing to make my poor emotionally unstable computer even more neurotic.

Most recordings are processed super much is digital land. People do route their stuff out of their DAWs for analog processing, but PT isn't just popular for the audio editing and massaging, it's popular for the production (FX) capabilities as well.

Again, work on your mixes because the improvement in sound for the most part will not be very substantial, in your circumstance. If you like, I'll send you a link to a mix done by my friend, all in Logic with UAD. It's good as any of that other dance stuff you've named. You really should hear it.

If you can't stop yourself though, then I'd reccmend 2 Distressors or a Massive Passive. Those devices are capable of EXTREME amounts of coloration and maybe even "warmth" (barf).

thumbsup

I don't necessarily disagree you can get a good sound out of the UAD plugins. I have them and I do like them. And my stuff seems to be decent...its been played on shows like the Radio One Essential Mix in the UK and massive festivals ariound the world etc...

But I guess case in point...I had a friend who went to the computer for a while. No matter what he did, he wasn't getting the sound he wanted. He ditched it, went back to his samplers with grit and funk, analog mixing board, analog tape delays, recording to 2 inch tape before it ever went to a computer. No more UAD card, instead things like Daking EQ and compressors etc. And his stuff just sounds far richer and more musical to me. And there is a certain thump he gets from the analog compression/EQ I still haven't seen in digital land. I am looking at all options to help...the compressors you recommended seem good, I quite liked the distressor.

All the older electronic guys had a lot of different gear. Because computers weren't nearly as powerful as they are now. I know people like the chemical brothers had a lot of great synths as well, and I am sure that is a huge part of the sound.

And if their wasn't a benefit to using various outboard gear for beat based music, why would guys like Dr. Dre print to 2 inch tape and use SSL etc? Lots of people don't like the sound of protools for mixing and seem to like the vibe they get integrating other outboard components. And having tried every plugin under the sun, none of the delays sound like a roland space echo. It just doesn't. Close maybe, but their is something about it thats not the same. And it seems, to me, for more complex mixes inside the computer...the more processing you do and the more you rely on just plugins, the smaller the track seems to get and the harder to get a depth and dimensionality.

I'd like to hear the mix, because like all things I suspect its just a preference in sound I mean hell, I certainly know that for 99 percent of the world out there, all of the differences and subtlety we hear are probably never appreciated.

email me at [email protected] if you don't mind.

Mike

Faeflora;
Would you mind sending me the link as well. I'd like to hear what the UAD can do, I'm thinking of adding the UAD, as soon as they iron out some of the kinks.

Thanks.

M-O-M.

I think that this "in the bop/out the box" discussion really boils down to personal choice.......

....normal people (be it at home, in a club, in the car or wherever) really can't hear the difference between a mix done solely in a computer and a mix done thru $2mill' of outboard......and they really don't care...........as long as the music is communicating something to them, that's all that matters.....

...but, we can hear the difference.....so then it's up to you to take it that extra mile or not......

...also, i think what's way more important is the choice of sounds at the beginning.........good sounds mixed in cubase with plugins will blow away a $2mill mix of ****e!.....by this logic, the best outboard to spend on would be amp, monitors, room, converters.

For me, warmth (grudge) is all about distortion, and i haven't heard a satisfying digital emulation other than the Hedd........but magneto is useable.

Amen Mr. Osamabushladin. Two terrorists grafted together. Wondermous!

Anyways I don't give a F U C * about whether or not a production is superb if the music is terrible. You can spit shine your **** as much as you want, and gee it may be warm and sparkly but I'm not going to listen to it. I LIKE MP3s. I LIKE CASSETTES. I HAVE A $20 home stereo. My car radio's speakers are torn! When I hear good music on my bad listening systems I LOVE IT.

I'm just repeating myself so this'll be the last time.

I use lots of outboard. I like the sound of outboard. To my ears, it's superior and to my ears, when compared to outboard, plugins are absolutely terrible.

I'm just trying to dissuade you from a massive investment because a WHOLE LOT of happy mixing production can be done in a DAW, without any outboard. And as you said 99% of listeners won't notice, or won't care.

That's it. Just trying to save you thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars.



(BTW I'm trying to get a link for you two)

Don't you underestimate the music-consumer!tutt
They might not hear the difference but sure do FEEL it.

A good mix will sound good in a $10.00 boom-box, a $50,000.00 state of the art system, iPod and a car stereo.

I'm not saying go out and spend mega$bucks on outboard pres and eqs, nevertheless it does make some difference.

I appreciate trying to save me money

But what point is their to life if we can't lust over things to improve our sound to the slightest degree? This _is_ gearslutz.com after all.

And to me, _I_ can hear and feel the difference on a dance floor. Or playing with a moog synth and feeling how warm and thick and juicy that filter is compared to that soft synth is really all the proof I need. And if you are in a big club with a full range system, it does make a difference...even more so then lets say something destined for a car radio. I know the guys who drum breakbeat and drum and bass are obsessive about getting their sound tight and punchy with ridiculous levels of tight sub bass. You heard any of the plump djs latest stuff? It sounds soooo good in the club.

I have been using computers to mix for a while now, and to my ears having played with this music in friends studios who have more gear, there is both the aesthetic pleasure of hearing (to my ears) a better sounding mix, as well as the musical pleasure of being able to twist knobs in real time and play with compression or EQ or whatever. I am getting sick and tired of staring at a screen and I sometimes feel the computer "sucks me in" and makes me mix more with my eyes then my ears, if that makes sense.

I don't care if I have to spend everything I earn to move to a more fluid environment for creating the music I love I would be a bigger gear slut, but I don't have the cash..

deconstruct, you might want to look into tube pre/DI's by A Designs.

We've got a Vipre, Ditto and an A Designs MP-1 here. I'd say price vs performance, the MP-1 we're using is excellent. It doesn't allow for some of the variations the Vipre does, but I'd say the basic sound is pretty much the same.

The MP has become our main weapon for warming up thin-sounding synth and sample sounds.

The MP-1 runs $899 and the MP-2 runs $1250. Check them out here. And more info here.

I reviewed the MP-1 here.

When I'm working in MIDI I usually track all my synth parts to Protools and then mix. I usually run them through a pair of Avalon 737's or the Phoenix DRS-2 and am almost always extremely pleased, lately especially by the Avalons. It makes a real difference.

-R

I completely disagree with you about the sound basically being the same between the Vipre and the MP-1 from A Designs. Not even close. Superfically at first listen it may seem to be the same, but once you get to know the two units, and especially use them in a mix that's where the similarity ends. The A designs doesn't have the depth or the smoothness of the Vipre. It's obvious in any source that even remotely comes close to having an extremely wide dynamic range or, a brittle top end (regardless of whether that's vocals a guitar cab or overheads). The A Designs isn't a bad piece, but it's in no way even close to the Vipre and I wouldn't expect it to be either.

Nathan, IMO, the sound at a basic level of the two units is not far apart. I've used them both extensively for tracking and hearing the tracks in mixes. Obviously, a $899 tube pre and a $2400 tube pre are not expected to be the same. Take away the gain structure, rise time/slew rate, impedance-matching of the Vipre and you have a basic all-tube pre. I've gotten settings on the Vipre that sounded very much in the ballpark of the MP-1. I've also gotten settings that sounded totally different.

deconstruct did start this thread asking about warming up synth/sample sounds. And it was to that application I was referring. If we're talking about an uber tube mic pre or $5000 for two channels of tube overhead pres, then that's a different thread. I'm not saying the Vipre is not a mother****er of a pre - and much of that is due to its versatility. The Vipre is certainly a killer tool in the studio. I'm only offering deconstruct another option. One that I think's pretty damn good.

deconstruct.

I'm a dance producer in the UK too. My advice would be to not dismiss using anything whether plug-in or outboard as the best path for this kind of music probably lies in using a bit of both.

My synths sound better going thru my Daking Mic-Pre/EQ's to my ears and it makes a crucial difference to club based material where a heavy yet tight bottom end is essential. (I actually go one step further and mostly use analog synths. Actually I go even further and try and use all discrete synths with no IC filters, etc... )

But - I also like using plug's like Inflator to get louder mixes in PTs...

If you mix in the box like I do (PT's TDM) then I think some key pieces of outboard are crucial. Get down to FunkyJunk or some place similar where you can borrow/try out some stuff for a few days (crucial) and I'm sure you'll notice the difference too. No need to spend crazy amounts either... just buy according to the kind of sound you like (my preference is for early 70's solid state type stuff but with modern build to save on maintenance - hence the Dakings, 1176 re-issue, new modular synths as opposed to original Urei, Tridents, Moogs, ARPs, etc).

Trying out stuff is so important when buying outboard cos of the cost involved. You'd download a 30day demo for a £200 plug-in so why not have a 30 day demo for a piece of outboard worth £1000+? I borrowed the Dakings and some API's for 10 days...I loved them both but the Dakings had the sound I was looking for.

I agree about Plug-in emulations of stuff like Tape Delays... they get close but its never the same... I prefer plugs that do truly innovative things rather than emulations.

Try and identify the kind of sound you like... and go find the boxes responsible. You'll probably want 2 (a mono unit and/or stereo unit) of each of the following: Mic-Pre, EQ, Compressor. 2 of each will give you some variety and a couple of options for different tasks - a mono unit and a stereo unit will cover most tracking and mix bus duties also.

Others may say you're better off spending the cash on converters and your monitoring room for mixing this kind of music in the box, but I disagree..

Burt

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by deconstruct I know the guys who drum breakbeat and drum and bass are obsessive about getting their sound tight and punchy with ridiculous levels of tight sub bass.

--------------------------------------------------

This may not be so much down to gear as to the genre. Most drum n bass is all top end and massive bottom. An empty mid range leaves plenty of room for a booming bass without muddying up anything. Photek/Peshay etc are known for their excellent d n b production... they used £150 Behringer Composers, Eq's etc and mixed on small Mackies last time I saw them...

Compare to 4 Hero who make more challenging material production-wise - song based d n b with plenty of mid-range, etc They used Summit EQ's, compressors and mixed in the analog domain to 2" tape for the last 2 albums.

Burt

thanks for the advice burt

I was only pointing to D&B and breaks as a general example of well engineered records. Obviously there are great house records as well and a range of people doing them.

Another friend of mine who does this stuff got the Daking EQ/Pres and really likes their tone. And I do agree about the balance in d&b being heavy bottom with plenty of space for the high stuff to float on top. And also that 99 percent of any engineering is just picking the right sounds and arrangement to begin with

As well as the comment on synths and sound sources. I still like the sound of EMU samplers. And playing with the new Moog in the store, it has such a richness and liquidity to the filter that I love.

And yeah with plugins...I use them because I have to, not because they are preferred for all things. There are certain things computers can do that you just won't find elsewhere...like granular synthesis and crazy stuff like that. Plus the superb editing abilities.

I am actually in the states if you can believe it. Although almost all my music goes to UK labels haha. I sort of "grew up" at Twilo seeing Sasha and Digweed in New York and I think that has been the biggest influence for me.

I just spent some money upgrading the acoustics in my room and adding a subwoofer, but in a few months I'll check out the stores here and see if they will let me check out the gear. I have rented from a place in town before stuff like the Fatso, distressor and some neve stuff just to get a feel of it, but I am still trying to correlate gear to tone in records I hear I like that warm punchy bottom. More of the rounded thump rather then sharp pointy things. And liquidy synths.

anyway, thanks all for all the feedback and suggestions.

Mike