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Who uses 2" at all?
Old 28th April 2003
  #1
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Who uses 2" at all?

All of these polls presume that there is a significant amount of 2" usage going on. So in order to evaluate them, I would ask:

In the last year, in what percentage of your work have you used 2" tape of any variety?

As for me--none---in spite of the fact that I own a nicely set up JH-24.

Not looking for opinions on which sounds best. Just wondering what people are really using.

-R
Old 28th April 2003
  #2
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This last year Pro tools usage went up dramatically in my studio. Best guess is 65% pro tools, 35% 2". The year before was just the opposite: 65% 2", 35% pro tools. So far this year it's running like last year, still about 30-35% analog 2". best regards, Rick
Old 28th April 2003
  #3
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
In 2000 I rcorded 95 % of the time on 2" tape stock

In 2001 I recorded 80 % of the time on 2" tape

In 2002 I recorded 70% of the time on 2"

This year looks like it will be like 2002's figures...

This doesn't mean analog is here to stay.

It means most real audio engineers are stubborn about keeping 2" around because of the quality of its sound
Old 28th April 2003
  #4
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzy Logic
In 2000 I rcorded 95 % of the time on 2" tape stock

In 2001 I recorded 80 % of the time on 2" tape

In 2002 I recorded 70% of the time on 2"

This year looks like it will be like 2002's figures...

This doesn't mean analog is here to stay.

It means most real audio engineers are stubborn about keeping 2" around because of the quality of its sound
I dunno if that's what it means. Somewhere there's been some guy posting the recording formats of Billboard charting records and there has been virtually no 2" use, if his posts are accurate. And the guys who make those records are real audio engineers, for the most part, I guess.

-R
Old 28th April 2003
  #5
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'd say that 90% of the stuff tracked here is done on 2". Digital gets used for the super low budget demos, like $500 to get 4 songs done stuff. But, I've never done anything that's been on the Billboard charts. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not.
Old 28th April 2003
  #6
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adamcal's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Im tipping this year will see increase in 2" use, this is based on all Ive read and seen in many forums, mags and the bands I work with asking for analog more and more.

For how long who knows, but analog is being asked about and talked about a lot in the last 6 months.

I doubt there would be many analog only projects, but in combination.
Old 28th April 2003
  #7
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Freelance engineers here:

Most of the pop/rock stuff is tracked to 2" at some point, either just the basics or everything. Most of it also gets transfered to PT for editing and the mix.

95% of the rap/R&B/dance stuff never sees 2" here...usually they come in for tracking vocals and mixing, or just mixing.

Film soundtrack tracking sessions and surround mixes have all been done in PT so far.


Me:

I use 2" on any acoustic-based music session I engineer. Sometimes also for hip hop. Everything else, PT.


With respect to Billboard, I'm a subscriber and it appears that ProTools and 2" are the two main formats, esp. ProTools. PT seems to be involved at some point in most every record, whereas tape is used mainly for printing the mix or for tracking acoustic-based music.

I listen to most mixes that are done here, and can say that the one that had 2" involved generally sound much better than the ones that didn't. It may not only be due to 2" use, however, but also budget and the fact that with 2" an engineer and a studio were involved with the tracking sessions. Much of the PT stuff I hear was tracked at home...and sounds like it. Just an observation.
Old 28th April 2003
  #8
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I ONLY track to 2". I don't even own a digital multitrack!
Old 28th April 2003
  #9
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
No 2" at all.

Reasons - cashflow & lack of demand
Old 28th April 2003
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Drumsound props to u for non dig environment.... u and ur M-79 will allways have a place in my heart...heh heh heh heh I have been using PT a bit in the last few weeks for the first real time and i miss my 'squish' factor but im gettin used to it..

PEACE
Wiggy
Old 28th April 2003
  #11
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cajonezzz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Who uses 2" at all?

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman

As for me--none---in spite of the fact that I own a nicely set up JH-24.



-R
wanna sell it? you probably won't be using it anyway.....heh

(100% tools and looking hard for a 2")
Old 28th April 2003
  #12
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
2"

I use it at least 80% of the time. And- I find that running tracking through the 2" machine into Logic tends to make the tracks sound somehow better- although I have no quantitative proof as to why.

It is definitely easier to get good sounds when hitting tape- for me- a relatively inexperienced engineer. I also think a lot of people I know do basics on tape and dump to PT or some other DAW.
Old 28th April 2003
  #13
Han
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
100% to 2"

I have Nuendo, Logic Audio, Cubase SX, Sonar, Wavelab, Cool Edit Pro, but only use it for fixing a problem now and then.

I'm addicted to tape, can't help it and don't want any help.
Old 28th April 2003
  #14
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Re: Who uses 2" at all?

Quote:
Originally posted by cajonezzz
wanna sell it? you probably won't be using it anyway.....heh

(100% tools and looking hard for a 2")
Nah, I'm sure I'll use it again, if only for transferring tracks or having access to my archives of 2" recordings. The next record I produce may be to 2" also, just to see how things stand after a couple years of digital-only. (I do, however, have a Trident series 24 console I might almost , sort of, maybe be ready to let go of.)

Anyhow, I didn't start this as a "which sounds better" thread. Just curious as to what people are actually doing.

-R
Old 28th April 2003
  #15
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
Used 2" 100% at first (old Soundcraft 760). Ran out of tracks so started using studio's Soundscape system (which I had avoided) for overdubs and eventually moved over to S/Scape 100% after a couple of months (no budget for new tape). Got to hate it & moved back to tape again, but keeping S/Scape for overdubs & vocal tracking.

Moved to studio with only Logic & had my own PTLE system. Hated it so bought 2" Ampex machine but then had disagreement with owner over installation & only did one session with it(but oh what a difference, even at 15ips).

Currently installing at my own shop & will use as much as possible alongside PTLE for xtra trax and heavy duty editing & MIDI!

OT, but with current mastering trends & methods, I find it's difficult to distinguish between 2" & PT recordings on a lot of major releases. Subject for a new thread?
Old 28th April 2003
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Re: Re: Who uses 2" at all?

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
Nah, I'm sure I'll use it again, if only for transferring tracks or having access to my archives of 2" recordings. The next record I produce may be to 2" also, just to see how things stand after a couple years of digital-only. (I do, however, have a Trident series 24 console I might almost , sort of, maybe be ready to let go of.)

Anyhow, I didn't start this as a "which sounds better" thread. Just curious as to what people are actually doing.

-R
how much would u be sellin the trident for? any maintenance issues that need to be addressed?
Old 28th April 2003
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
95% PTHD, 5% Paris, and no 2" but if someone will pay for the machine, maintenance,new tape and tranfer time I'd be glad to use it :-)
daniel
Old 28th April 2003
  #18
Riffer
 
lflier's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Most people that I work with prefer to record to 2", and if they record digitally it's only because they don't have the cash. I do a lot of budget stuff at my home studio which is digital, but if a client has any decent budget we go to a commercial studio with a 2" machine. I just finished a record that was tracked to 2" and dumped to PTHD for mixing.

I think it's amusing that Steely Dan's newest record was done on tape. :D
Old 28th April 2003
  #19
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drundall's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I've gotten a lot of requests for tape in the last year. I would like to incorporate both PTHD and 2" for future projects. I might have to insist
Old 29th April 2003
  #20
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by lflier
I think it's amusing that Steely Dan's newest record was done on tape. :D
WTF?!? Your joking right? Someone tell me that it's a joke, and if it's not tell me what article that was in so I can see it with my own eyes. I mean, ****...those guys were making digital records before there was digital. Listen to Aja.

The only thing I don't get is people bitching about tape costs. Tape is usually the least expensive part of an album. A new reel of GP9 or SM900 is roughly $150 and 2 reels at 15ips can hold an entire record. That's only $300, sure a hard drive is cheaper but not that much cheaper. If the tape is too expensive your studio isn't charging enough.
Old 29th April 2003
  #21
Riffer
 
lflier's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Jay, nope, it's not a joke. It's on the press release for the album on SD's own web site. Then there's this interview with Elliot Scheiner from Mix. Here is the relevant dirt:

Quote:
...with Steely, we recorded room mics on the new album, and in the mix, I'm using a fair amount of them, which is different for us.

Where did you record that project?

Sear Sound in New York. All analog.

That's a change for you.

No, that's a change for [Steely Dan]. I always try to record analog. That's my primary choice. I talked them into it. It was funny the way that it worked. They did one song there [at Sear] that was for a tribute to Joni Mitchell. They have unbelievable mics there, and when you walk in the door, all of a sudden, it's 1974. It's wild. There are even beads on the entryway. So there's this vibe. And when we got into the studio, I looked at Walter [Becker] and said, β€œCan we do this in analog?”

You just kind of casually slipped that in, because you were in that vintage environment?

Yeah. And he said, β€œThis is a tribute, let's do it.” So we did it analog, and they were amazed; they'd forgotten how good analog sounds. Because of that, when we started the new record about two months later, they said, β€œLet's do it analog.” And we did. The basic tracks are all analog; all of the overdubs were done in a workstation.

How about mixing?

Analog and digital. Just last week we finished off a couple of mixes, and Walter said, β€œMaybe it's time to A/B the analog and digital and see what we're going to use.” So I set it up to A/B, almost perfectly, and the analog killed it. And we were using the 24-bit, 96kHz digital.

I'm surprised.

It was so far beyond it that they weren't convinced. They said, β€œLet's take it to a mastering room.” So we did and did the same process, and the analog still killed the digital on a completely different machine.
For the record, I am not a Steely Dan fan. But I do think this is amusing considering, as you say, that they've always been such champions of digital.
Old 29th April 2003
  #22
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by lflier

I think it's amusing that Steely Dan's newest record was done on tape. :D
That cracks me up. I just assumed from the sound of that album that it had to have been done digitally (and I don't mean that in a nice way.)

-R
Old 29th April 2003
  #23
Riffer
 
lflier's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
LOL RK... You know what all the champions of digital say: "You can get great sounds from digital, you just have to work a lot harder at it." This is like the reverse: "you can get a flat sterile piece of crap from tape, you just have to work a lot harder at it." heh
Old 29th April 2003
  #24
Han
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by lflier
LOL RK... You know what all the champions of digital say: "You can get great sounds from digital, you just have to work a lot harder at it." This is like the reverse: "you get a flat sterile piece of crap from tape, you just have to work a lot harder at it." heh
Lee, I just woke up and this is the first thing I do, reading your post.

You really make my day sister!
Old 29th April 2003
  #25
Lives for gear
 
davemc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I would love to go back to tape, although most of the bands I record would not pay for it. I am charging around AUD$400 for 8 hours so I would struggle to get AUD$300+ for a roll of tape. As most have a 3-5 day budget at most...

Most bands expect to get the editing on PT or something and for a lot of bands it is more important then tape sound. Spent 6-7 hours comping and autotuning and cleaning up a 3 piece horn section on Sunday...
A 24 track limit would be cool, no more keeping mulitple takes..
The sound, the no moving drums to the 64th beat.
Back to a real mixer with no recall...
Old 29th April 2003
  #26
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adamcal's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
HI dave, im in the same boat as you, but for the cheap gigs I get around it like this.

The bands only hire the reel, as it going to be dumped in to the computer anyways. they pay a small ammount, get the 2" sound, transfer in, then we are in total recall mix land in the computer (or seperate outs to the desk).

I go over the tape 4 to 5 times and its paid for itself. If they want a fresh reel, the clients have to buy one, but also keep it. or I offer to sell them a used one at a reduced rate, depending on how much it ows me.
Attached Thumbnails
Who uses 2" at all?-tape-room.jpg  
Old 29th April 2003
  #27
Lives for gear
 
davemc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Adam,

How are you?
Yes been there and done that when I went digital to start with. Although in the lets edit the crap out of our song as we cannot play it live. I would only get the drum takes to chop up.
Unless I dump it edit it and dump it back which is an option to consider.

I would prefer to go back to tape so I would not have to edit the crap out of takes.. Done a poll with a lot of bands and they want editing way more then Tape sound...
Actually a lot comment on the sound of the gear but are more interested in the price...As you well know there are a lot of small studios around now... More then I know of..

Sorry to take the thread sort of off topic, although a lot of bands are just to cheap to pay for tape..... I mean unsigned bands from my perspective.
Old 29th April 2003
  #28
Lives for gear
 
adamcal's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes there are lots of small studio in own town, and there always have been, a lot come and go. guys like us who have been there for a long time will outlast them all.

Just a thought, since I have tape and you dont, and you have Pro Tools and I dont, there could be times when we could help each other out. we should meet up sometime. (and wiggy- who ever he is ;-)).

want to ask you about the API.
Old 29th April 2003
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs

The only thing I don't get is people bitching about tape costs. Tape is usually the least expensive part of an album. A new reel of GP9 or SM900 is roughly $150 and 2 reels at 15ips can hold an entire record. That's only $300, sure a hard drive is cheaper but not that much cheaper. If the tape is too expensive your studio isn't charging enough.
I guess it depends how large your market is, among other things.
But doesn't a reel of tape last 32 minutes at 15 ips? So it could be $300 but with alternate takes could be more like $600 and up?
Plus the cost of the Machine and the maintenance. What if your band wants more than 24 tracks? 2machines?
I always felt the more times the tape went round, the less top I heard. Well.. yada yada good work if you can get it
daniel
Old 29th April 2003
  #30
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
[B]
But doesn't a reel of tape last 32 minutes at 15 ips?

*** Yup. You need at least 3 minutes on the first reel for tones though. I use a bit more then that and do 30 seconds each of 1k, 10k and 100hz, 15 seconds each of 15k and 50hz and a nice record pad.

So it could be $300 but with alternate takes could be more like $600 and up?

*** How do you figure? The band needs to pick a take before we move on, anything that's not needed is wiped and reused. Maybe three reels but that's still $450. In a studio that's $350-500 a day an extra $150 over the course of a week or 2 usually isn't an issue.

Plus the cost of the Machine and the maintenance. What if your band wants more than 24 tracks? 2machines?

*** I rarely need more then 24 tracks. Drums take up 8-10 tracks, 2 for bass, 1 for SMPTE. The rest are open for overdubs which is usually plenty. If we really need more tracks I'll lock up a DAW or MDM. And the maintenance is less then people make it out to be. And if I know we need a lot of tracks for overdubs I'll get the drums down to 5 or 6 tracks and sum the bass DI & amp to one track right from the start.

I always felt the more times the tape went round, the less top I heard. Well.. yada yada good work if you can get

*** Yes & no. It settles in after roughly an hour or two. After that the loss is quite minor and is never an issue.
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