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dream drum set up..less is more
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
just finished a song with only 1 mic for drums. R84 at about 1 meter in front of kit. to 1073 cranked until it starts distorting then one stage down, to mc77 all buttons in. Everybody was surprised how good it sounded. We didnt feel the need for more mics so we didnt add any.

Actually It made me feel a bit stupid thinking about all the work and fuss I sometimes have to mic a kit! 10 to 12 mics is usual for me. Or should I say, was usual. Long live simplicity. Long live mono! I know, I know, doesnt always work
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Slikjmuzik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Try getting away with that for metal.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
what ive been doing recently is pretty much perfect although i would like some 1073's involved!

kit: my gretsch 62' roundbadge

Kik - 47 fet - trident mta

snr - sm57 - thermionic culture rooster

OH - u87 (they work awesomely in the room!) or AEA R84 - 1073's

Rooms - 414's behind the kit in the glass room (or a pair of 67's we only have one so another is on the wish list :D) - 9098

Mono room, front of kit - U67 - trident mta

Tom
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
Kush Audio
 
u b k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slikjmuzik ➡️
Try getting away with that for metal.

'metal' would be fine, in fact it'd probably sound amazing done up that way.

getting away with that for metal *bands*, otoh, is a totally different matter. heh

as an aside, what does it say about a pool of musos who posture so masculinely, so aggressively, so defiantly, that they are so beholden to the strictures and rules of how their music is supposed to sound?


gregory scott - 'ubk'
.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #35
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➡️
I remember some videotaped sessions, where the sound captured by the videocam's mics blew away the mix from the drumkit's multimicced setup. Go figure.
the answer is the cheap "limiter" on the videocam's input... its essentially emulating the SSL talkback compressor...

so tell the pro sound engineer to start using an SSL talk back compression--or some other brutal piece of machinery--to mash his drum room mics... he can also run the compressor on a send and feed different amounts from each drum/mic into the fray... so it reacts to the kick or snare more, for example.

anyhow, you get the idea
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➡️
'metal' would be fine, in fact it'd probably sound amazing done up that way.

getting away with that for metal *bands*, otoh, is a totally different matter. heh
UBK's luddite one-mic posturing aside, he's missing the point of WHY ppl use close mics on drums in the first place. UBK's goal (as i interpret it) is to find one spot in the room where the drum kit really sings. by using his ears and listening, he finds the one "golden spot" then puts the "money" mic where there. this is commendable because it shows he's actually listening but it is only a starting point for Big****ingMetalDrums™.

to be a true mensch requires a few more steps... remember, we can always had MORE mics and just choose not to use them later. or we can use these "extra" mics for other purposes. MORE choices is generally better than less choices, if we can make these choices mindfully.

first, to understand the general concept of using close mics to contrast OH/rooms when recording a drum kit some things must be made clear.

the reasons ppl use close mics:
  1. isolation - live sound reinforcement techniques when recording a band in a room.
  2. impact - extreme close up inter-spliced with overall "room/OH" backdrop.
  3. key - either for sound replacement/triggers or for having fun with compressor or gate side chains.

the one we're interested in (for metal) is IMPACT...

the idea is this: when the kick or snare isn't triggering you hear the room mics and OHs for the general stereo image and depth picture.... the close mics are filtered/gated/compressed/EQed to emphasize IMPACT which is then ADDED to the overall picture of the room/OHs for brief snips of time. a few hundred ms, generally.

the goal of all these "ears" placed at various locations around the room is to put together a full bandwidth drum kit out of all these sonic pieces... by separating the mics we have more potential for sonic contrast when putting all the pieces back together.

very important: we cannot use full bandwidth on all the additive close mics because this will be a phase smear nightmare. we have to use the outboard toolkit mindfully to pare these close miked sounds down to only what we need.

the "impact" mics are only used to add polaroid pictures of SMACK every time the kick or snare fires... these mics have very little to do with the resonant tone of the drum, which we're getting from the room/OHs.

the close mics are flashbulbs in a paparazzi assault of cameras on paris hilton... each flash is one drum hit, one drum stick or beater hitting one drum, a still polaroid picture... overexposed, blurry, contrasty, color saturated, grainy, etc.... we WANT contrast from these sounds. remember, a camera much further back is running constantly and giving us the big overall picture. these close miked "polaroids" are only ACCENTS to be added to the overall collage. accents are only useful if they happen once in awhile.

it goes something like this: room room KICK room room SNARE room room.. where KICK and SNARE are our close miked processed tracks. the processed close mics are supposed to jump out from the speakers and add motion... but only for short periods of time.

in other words, you're assembling full bandwidth stereo audio from the pieces of room/OH/close... and this is generally an exercise in SCULPTURE more so than making every individual sound HUGE in a soloed vacuum. we want HUGE to take up as little space as necessary, because we still have the GTRs, bass, voice, opening of the gates of hell to add later.

so really, each sound should take up the LEAST amount of space possible... our 2bus is only so big. a good way to see this is to use a pie chart. if 90% of the 2bus is dominated by drums then the other 10% left has to be split amongst the rest of the instruments.

one of the reason we throw close mics under the bus is that they're very fast sounds... SMACK and done... so we can get away with more processing. we only want a few hundred millisecs from our close miked tracks.

carving them into exactly what we want (when added to big picture) is the goal... we also want the whole picture to appear complete, but have as few moving parts as necessary-for simplicity's sake.

OK, for contrast's sake, we want to have the close mics sound different from the overall picture.
  1. ROOM: we want the transients to be smeared from the room mics because we've got a u47 in fig-8 on the other side of a gobo capturing "that" sound. we are concentrating on depth and the overall drum kit sound.
  2. OHs: we want our top end to come from the OHs because these have the best stereo info.
  3. close mics: we want our bitch slapping to come from the close mikes. therefore they must be filtered/gated/compressed/EQed and ADDED to Room/OHs.

each one is part of the 20-20k stereo pie.... i hope this clears things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➡️
as an aside, what does it say about a pool of musos who posture so masculinely, so aggressively, so defiantly, that they are so beholden to the strictures and rules of how their music is supposed to sound?
P.S. to UBK: I hope you understand the irony of labeling yourself a "mix architect" then advocating that ppl use only ONE mic on drums. if they follow your advice what exactly is there to mix???

ONE mic on drum kit is also a posture... its a form of "purist" fundamentalism which ignores valid sound capture and processing techniques. its like your "crusade" against 5k. 5k is a tool to include in your toolbox. close mics are another tool. the more tools you can find uses for the better your mixing palette will be.

DO NOT discount a tool based on ideology... then the terrorists win.

P.P.S: CONGRATS ON MAKING THE FATSO UBK, looks very cool! huge potential here for using the fatso/distressor as a platform for more sounds... i sincerely hope this trend continues
Old 14th February 2009
  #37
Lives for gear
 
lordmiguel's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The kit, room, placement not being insignificant details (!)

Kick > Fet 47 out, sm91 inside
Snare > 57
Hat: 451
Toms: 421
OH: U47s (U67's if no 47's)
Room: C24 stereo or 251 mono
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 ➡️
  1. ROOM: we want the transients to be smeared from the room mics because we've got a u47 in fig-8 on the other side of a gobo capturing "that" sound. we are concentrating on depth and the overall drum kit sound.
Sorry, not to be too much of a stickler, but I'm wondering what kind of 47 you've got that you can switch to fig-8? Hope I don't come off as an ass, I'm drunk and it's late, but I love me some 47 and I don't want any slutz on their first time with a 47 trying to slide that pattern select switch somewhere it don't go. Which I don't imagine they'd actually do, unless they too were drunk. Cheers
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
Moderator
 
Trev@Circle's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
my kit with my gear in my room (livin the dream here )
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Space Station's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hard question.... I like as few mics as possible...with everything bleeding into each other... sometimes....

For that im using a 414EB(brass c12) on kick 12-18 inches back, C12VR on snare/hi-hat, Akg C61's in ortf between toms and cymbals.

Very happy, all sounds great...the 414 sounds awesome in fact on the Kick.

But then i'm getting much more into a closed drum sound these days, using nothing but C-ducers and overdubbing cymbals spotted with a Km84.

I dream of 2 x M49. I love those Talk Talk records..you know the ones.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
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deve's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➡️
44, a few feet off the kit.

done.

stick a 441 on the kick... if you need to be a little girl and use 2 mics.

behold my manly-ness!



gregory scott - 'ubk'
.
Nice
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by betamatt ➡️
Sorry, not to be too much of a stickler, but I'm wondering what kind of 47 you've got that you can switch to fig-8? Hope I don't come off as an ass, I'm drunk and it's late, but I love me some 47 and I don't want any slutz on their first time with a 47 trying to slide that pattern select switch somewhere it don't go. Which I don't imagine they'd actually do, unless they too were drunk. Cheers
the mic was chosen at random from the top of my pointy head... it was not meant to be a serious example
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
Lives for gear
 
Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 ➡️
the answer is the cheap "limiter" on the videocam's input... its essentially emulating the SSL talkback compressor...
probably theres another answer, or answers to that. ´

I had a full week session a month ago with a real big band, or a small orchestra if you want ( 6 wind section , real piano, 2violions, cello, percursion kit, then more brass...etc). Movie scoring. like 12 people in the room, my room, not that big.

Anyway, I spent almost a day sitting people in the right spot, micing everything, setting up preamps, room mics, blah blah....Then, just for the kick of it, I left my portable roland recorder in the room near to where the maestro was.

In the end of the day, after a great deal of work, everybody was pleased with the result.
Then I went back in the room and checked how it sounded in that portable recorder..... oh my god.

The image was much better, no phase issues, cancelations, less room problems. In one word, it sounded better although not as present and detailed maybe. but all it took was 2 secs setting it up. I was so frustrated.

Then I realized, that one of the things that make multi micking so tricky is that you have to reconstruct the image by yourself. And that can be hard, especially with a lot of mics. Phase and image come to play.

My portable roland mics are hard set up so they translate a more solid image, and, although the quality of the mics and converters are not even close to my apogees, lynxs, schoeps, flamingos, neves, etc, in that case, image won. And I won some piece of experience, learning from it.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao ➡️
.Then, just for the kick of it, I left my portable roland recorder in the room near to where the maestro was.
you realize of course that the maestro is balancing the orchestra... and that the best place to listen from is his position, right? this falls into the category of "so obvious ppl miss it" sometimes.

i wonder what an XY pair above the conductor's head would sound like... i mean, since he's balancing the instruments already.... he's affecting the outcome more than any single member of the orchestra... it seems like something along these lines should be a good starting point... even if you just use it as a guide track to construct the rest of the mix i'd think the maestro's POV would be valuable... makes sense that you put the mics in the best place to listen from, doesnt it?

i am not a mic guy by any stretch of the imagination, so these may be the ravings of a lunatic.

that said, i'm not a big fan of X-Y (see, i've changed my mind already!) because the middle is so soft and off-axis...

i'd be tempted to use 4 really good mics in like pairs, one Mid-Side and one ORTF.. so they're covering each other's soft spots.. all 4 from more or less the conductor's position. and then play around with the different mics in each pair, as well as the height.... there's gotta be a lot of fun options in there.

i think i'd start out with the brightest pair in the ORTF because those would be the pair which sounds most stereo... so i'd wanna emphasize the HF content there.... maybe something darker for the M-S... crazy?

but again, this is just me guessing and knowing absolutely nothing about proper classical miking techniques... for what it's worth
Old 15th February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
 
Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i did have a pair of mics in the same position, near to the maestro.

My point was, simplicity helps a lot. Multi micing can be worst and makes you deal with a lot of problems you dont have with one or 2 mics. having to reconstruct for your self the phantom image, deal with phase, bleed, etc... can result in a poor image and depth

drums somtimes benefict from this simpler approach. Also it lets you have some fun trying to make it work with just one or 2 mics. its also easier to process and change/ eq/ compress your kit.
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
Lives for gear
 
Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
here´s a piece of my last job. i had to do everything in 1 day. In the end of the song you can hear the 1073 distorting a bit to much...band liked it so I left it...


Drums: r84 fok 1 meter away, to bae1073, to purple Mc77 all buttons in 0 attack, 5 release into lynx aurora to pthd.

The first time I could use all buttons in! Oh, there is no addicional reverb, all room...
Attached Files

SHORT Jam_sample.wav (5.38 MB, 963 views)

Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Personal favourites.....

Mine would be:

Kick D112,
U47 mid,
R122 side,
57 snare bottom,
U87 room

Chandler germanium on every channel, Lavry gold a/d, algorythmix red for enhancement if needed.


Toby
Old 6th May 2009 | Show parent
  #48
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I'm usually happy with this:

Light stuff:
up top: 4038s
kick: D12
room: u47




Hard hitting:
Up top: c12s
Kick out: 47 fet
Kick in: 421
Snare T/B: 57
high toms: 421
floor toms: D112
room: U47
Old 10th May 2009 | Show parent
  #49
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
gretsch round badge/ludwig or a premier set
3 mic technique
d12
brauner
sm57
everything into calrec 1061's sometime api's

enjoy life-
Old 10th May 2009 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Maniac
 
mildav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
kick audiotecnica ae 2500 inside api 3124
kick yamaha woofer ns 10 outside api 3124
snare top sm 57 api 3124
snare bottom akg 414 api 3124
toms 421 isa 828
hihat avantone ck1 dbx 386
oh shoeps cm6+mk4 capsule summit audio tba 200
room akg 414 in bluemlain config isa 828
sometimes microtech geffell um 92.1
Old 10th May 2009 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
Kore's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mildav ➡️
kick audiotecnica ae 2500 inside api 3124
kick yamaha woofer ns 10 outside api 3124
snare top sm 57 api 3124
snare bottom akg 414 api 3124
toms 421 isa 828
hihat avantone ck1 dbx 386
oh shoeps cm6+mk4 capsule summit audio tba 200
room akg 414 in bluemlain config isa 828
sometimes microtech geffell um 92.1
Wow..and thats your idea of 'less is more'!!!
Old 11th May 2009 | Show parent
  #52
SRS
Lives for gear
 
SRS's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonamesleft ➡️
neves on everything except for OH and rooms...those gets API's
I typically start the opposite... APIs on the drums and Neve (Great River) on OH...

Which proves the subjective-ness of all this.
Old 11th May 2009 | Show parent
  #53
Gear Addict
 
Tim Abraham's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Later this month I'm going to be recording a loop/sample collection with a minimal mic'd (mostly ribbons) sound for rootsy/organic singer-songwriters. Here's my planned setup:

OH - R84
Kick - R121
Snare - SM7b
Rooms - 4038 (pair)
Toms - 421's

All API 312's (the 4038's might get TG2's, just for the Abbey Road-ness of it all).
Old 11th May 2009 | Show parent
  #54
Gear Maniac
 
mildav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kore ➡️
Wow..and thats your idea of 'less is more'!!!


yes
Old 11th May 2009 | Show parent
  #55
Gear Nut
 
Neps's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
well, my drumkit I use, will also be the one I name here.. A collection of diffrent Ludwig and DW toms, Slingerland and Ludwig snares and my trusty DW kick. Cymbals.. Zildjian Avidas and Sabian Vault's.

Mic's depends on the music, but as I'm in the mood to record some light alternative/acoustic rock.. ummm...

Kick.. Earthworks SR25
OH's... Earthworks QTC50
Snare.. SM57
Room.. Heavyly compressed U89

Toms might get a 421.

Everything through my Focusrite Liquid channel's.
Old 11th May 2009 | Show parent
  #56
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 ➡️
UBK's luddite one-mic posturing aside, he's missing the point of WHY ppl use close mics on drums in the first place.
The thread asked to keep the set up simple.

I normally use 12-14 mics, but used a one mic set up on a Laura Izibor track and was going to post it when I saw that the thread was asking for simple set ups.

It wouldn't have been posturing for me to answer the question because that's my interpretation of what's being asked for. I'm pretty sure that's the same thing for UBK.
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