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Do you use console or Pro Tools automation?
Old 9th February 2009
  #1
Gear Nut
 
Doug Rogers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Do you use console or Pro Tools automation?

Our automation systems need replacing, but before we do it we're interested to know how many here are still using console automation as opposed to Pro Tools automation, and if you are using console automation which system do you prefer?

Thanks,

- DR
Old 9th February 2009
  #2
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
I use SSL G+ computer on an 4000E

Though I have to say - for quicker client turnaround and recall I've been more and more using the SSL for tracking and summing on the mix with PT automation.

Often the ability to do minute tweaks in seconds means better mixes than long winded though good console automation. Though console automation can have it's advantages, particularly with a lot of outboard gear - these advantages can be difficult to exploit in the modern world and my results through PT automation are quicker and more creative, often meaning better.

But depends on how you like to work - this works for me...

Thanks
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Nut
 
Brad_Wood's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
PT only since 2003.


Best- BRad
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Nut
 
Doug Rogers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
No SSL's here, we have Neve 8028 and 8078 and Trident A Range.

The Neve's have GML automation, but there are hardware problems and zero support (plus they run on Mac OS9!).

- DR
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I use both.
Martinsound is doing FF's 2
also Tonelux Shadowmix which is way cheaper than FF's and very cool.
runs off PT midi tracks
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
It depends on what you're trying to achieve...

Assuming you have access to both and mix OTB (using Pro Tools as HD recorder for a console), then in mixdown you're either going to want to control your levels before it hits compressors or after

In general, to fix tracking level problems (sibilance, background noise, weird level changes) the automation will be done in Pro Tools, but the final mix will be done with console automation

(using Neve 8078 w/Uptown automation)
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Guru
 
AllAboutTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
weird but I use both !!!
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I do all my automation in the DAW.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Nut
 
Doug Rogers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Are any of you familiar with Shadowmix from Tonelux?

Tonelux Mixing Console and Modular Products

It's unclear how many channels it handles, but I like the fact it handles both desk and PT automation.

Any users?

- DR
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Nut
 
Doug Rogers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike ➡️
(using Neve 8078 w/Uptown automation)
Their site says they no longer support the system.

- DR
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Rogers ➡️
Are any of you familiar with Shadowmix from Tonelux?

Tonelux Mixing Console and Modular Products

It's unclear how many channels it handles, but I like the fact it handles both desk and PT automation.

Any users?

- DR
32 channels is the limitation based on the HUI protocol.


Flying Faders II now integrates with ProTools well.

My vote is for both ProTools & moving faders.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Deleted 37a7726
Guest
1/2 & 1/2. Protools for minor tweaks & AMS Neves encore plus on the DFC's
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Rogers ➡️
Their site says they no longer support the system.

- DR
I'm aware... if anything fails then it would require a complete automation refit. However, it's been working fine and hopefully the magic of DOS will keep everything going..!
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
alessio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I use yamaha 02\96 automation. Faster.
Alessio
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
AWS900 w/ AWSomation here.

I use both. Hybrid in all aspects..
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
colinmiller's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
When I am mixing ITB I make it a rule not to use the console automation. But that's just me.

I don't like relying on PT automation when using a console because of it affecting the outboard compression and things like that. I always end up with a combination.

Would it help to contact P&G and see what their take is?
Old 10th February 2009
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Igotsoul4u's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
ITB. Automating on an icon is amazing. No MO disks needed with the ability to tweek at home makes it superior to console automation. Switch groups??? I did like Flying Faders a lot though. Automating in protools LE sucks though. Lack of trim mode has been killing me.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Avening's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Pro Tools Automation here. Why? My end product is more versatile. Although I'm not the one to start and finish on a single board, ITB automation affords me the opportunity to move around, cross platforms, and still retain my session coherence. I track on a Neve 8036, edit on an SSL 4040G+ and mix on an SSL 9080J. VCAs are set at 0, levels and automation are done ITB.

However, my choice would be both. You'd never want to close the door on a client's preference, or introduce a new leaning curve that could potentially cost.

Best of luck.

Btw, your new facilities look fantastic.
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avening ➡️
... and mix on an SSL 9080J. VCAs are set at 0, levels and automation are done ITB.
And you use outboard on the console?
if so how do you not mess up the thresholds of the outboard comps?
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Avening's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge ➡️
And you use outboard on the console?
if so how do you not mess up the thresholds of the outboard comps?

Inserted outboard comp thresholds are affected somewhat during ITB automation, but it generally turns out to be pretty "musical" when attenuating the signal. Follows natural dynamics well. Major issues can be worked around if needed (plug-in comps with threshold automation, manual balancing using audiosuite - pre-processing, ect...). It's something you can't really work around ... you are sending less signal from the DA.

It's just a work flow you'd have to get used to. Worth the effort in my eyes for session versatility. I'm so used to it now, it's almost second nature. However, YMMV.
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by alessio ➡️
I use yamaha 02\96 automation. Faster.
Alessio
Same here. Faster for me.
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Nut
 
The Private Room's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Roundbadge is right, don´t forget that the threshold of analog compressors react differntly if you use the DAW automation befor it hits the console. I use the Uptown 990 automation and its great! it sound so much better when you attenuate a analog fader than if it has to be calculated in the digital domain
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
The MPCist's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
PT and analog console automation for me.

I'd say that if you are using alot of outboard gear, you'll have to get analog automation just to deal with the noise issue among other things (hiss/noise from the dozen tube comp's and eq's during quiet passages of the song)..... If it's just to 'sum' from PT, then it wouldn't really matter that much.
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Private Room ➡️
Roundbadge is right, don´t forget that the threshold of analog compressors react differntly if you use the DAW automation befor it hits the console. I use the Uptown 990 automation and its great! it sound so much better when you attenuate a analog fader than if it has to be calculated in the digital domain
I find itb rides useful for getting certain elements[esp vox,and uneven bass players] to hit certain outboard things more evenly..combined w/ console rides can allow for less compression=more natural open sounding volume changes yet w/ the vibe of the comp left intact
also: sometimes itb fx[alti,etc] that may not get any ob treatment on non automated fx returns get itb rides
Old 17th February 2009
  #25
Lives for gear
 
phillysoulman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
PT all the way
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #26
theother
Guest
Console automation, otherwise you change the threshold on the analog compressors (channels inserts or channel compressors).

The good and old SSL G+ computer/automation is hard to beat. AWS/Duality is similar but I would miss the ASC keyboard and all the buttons with the computer commands right in front of me.

I would never use just PT automation with a console.
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #27
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Rogers ➡️
Are any of you familiar with Shadowmix from Tonelux?

Tonelux Mixing Console and Modular Products

It's unclear how many channels it handles, but I like the fact it handles both desk and PT automation.

Any users?

- DR
As thrillfactor said, it's 32 max with pro tools, but I think other DAWs can handle more. If you needed more than 32 channels you could hook up a separate computer running something else like Logic Express or whatever is cheap and lock it to PT via MTC.
The coolest thing about ShadowMix to me is that it's incredibly easy to edit your fader moves, you just treat them like ITB automation. The system has a little bit of a learning curve - you have to think about it a little differently than you would Uptown or FF, but once you get used to it, it's cake. I highly recommend ShadowMix.
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Paul Wolff Designs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Using the ShadowMix automation system


The ShadowMix automation system is an HUI based automation system that uses the HUI/MIDI protocol to operate. It is most similar to products like the Command 8, but instead of just controlling faders onscreen, the ShadowMix system will actually attenuate the audio signal going through the actual faders based on the fader moves the DAW, with 10 bits of resolution and control over Mutes and SOLO-IN-PLACE. It’s sonically superior to a standard DAW control surface in that as the actual audio is sent at FULL RESOLUTION OUTPUT via a pre-fader send or Pre fader insert track, you’re always benefiting from optimal digital resolution (as opposed to lowering the actual audio within the DAW as you fade, which lowers the output to the interface and thus the digital resolution). The Db scale on the fader is accurate to the fader on the screen, as we are using a custom P&G fader that has been tailored to match the scale.

The only limitation is with Pro Tools, which limits the HUI to 32 channels. All the others can do 64. If you get a laptop that has Nuendo on it and just use it as the automation system, you have a system for half the price of anything else with the cool editing features of the DAWs.

We are finally in full production, we had to design a fader with P&G, then do a matching manual fader (so the faders both match the HUI scale), then designing a worthwhile touch circuit that is quiet (most of the standard systems out there radiate way too much RF for the digital world. I had to do my own).

Paul
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneLux ➡️
We are finally in full production, we had to design a fader with P&G, then do a matching manual fader (so the faders both match the HUI scale), then designing a worthwhile touch circuit that is quiet (most of the standard systems out there radiate way too much RF for the digital world. I had to do my own).

Paul
thanks for posting paul. are you making systems to fit any console within reason, or are they intended for tonelux consoles mainly?
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Paul Wolff Designs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by raal ➡️
thanks for posting paul. are you making systems to fit any console within reason, or are they intended for tonelux consoles mainly?
We support only the following consoles:

Neve (old and new)
Tonelux
Daking
Trident
Wunder
Helios
and some older ones.

The fader input to the desk needs to have a 100K load for the fader to track the DAW. Ones not listed don't.

With the non-Tonelux systems, we can do the panels or provide the drawings. We don't do the installation, but it is super simple.

Currently, we have placed as many systems with the new Neve console as our own.
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