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R84 vs 44 vs 92
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #31
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Peace in our time. THANKS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➡️
lol! that's exactly what i said, twice. in side-by-sides with a vintage 44, the 84 comes off hyped, even a little plastic on top. in any other context i would never *dream* of describing the 84 that way, i own one and i adore it to no end and compared to most ldc's it is positively buttery up top.

i can't speak to the aea 44, i've never used it; i'm talking about sun studio sounding, dented casing, 50-year-old patina covered rca technology.

in any case, this is why i've begun avoiding a/b comparisons wherever possible... i end up finding fault with things that really can't be faulted unless and until they're placed ass-to-ass with something superior. the result is an endless circle of chasing perfection, which ignores the reality that perfection is never needed, let alone possible.


gregory scott - 'ubk'
.
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #32
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks Lynn - I need to order that. I did get the pre CD you put out, and I found it to be tremendously useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston ➡️
You can hear the 84, 92 and 44 next to each other on the Ribbon Roundup CD.

Electric guitar, sax, drums and female vocal are the sources.

And a 77DX.
And a 4038 and 4040.
And a Beyer M160.
And a Royer 121 and 122.
And a C&T Studio Vocalist and Proscenium.
With a $130 Nady RSM 2 thrown in for kicks.



You can read about it here:

Lynn's Ribbon Roundup (or "What I Did on my Summer Vacation") - 3dB


I'm not trying to sell CDs, so I won't post a link for ordering.
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i love all my ribbons and specially the r84. Then I heard a 44...Its simply insane. I have to agree, side by side it makes the 84 sound like a toy. check out the electric guitar amp on war´s jamsessions. then click on the 84... where did all the magic gone?

Id love to hear some feedback on the new 44 from AEA...440
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➡️

in any case, this is why i've begun avoiding a/b comparisons wherever possible... i end up finding fault with things that really can't be faulted unless and until they're placed ass-to-ass with something superior. the result is an endless circle of chasing perfection, which ignores the reality that perfection is never needed, let alone possible.


gregory scott - 'ubk'
.
Very well said! Perhaps a rather philosophical way of describing one of the symptoms of the medical case known as GAS
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #35
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➡️
Thanks Lynn - I need to order that. I did get the pre CD you put out, and I found it to be tremendously useful.
Now is a good time. I just dropped the prices on most of the CDs. The Ribbon CD is almost half the price it was originally. Or you can download all the 16/44.1 files if you don't need the physical CD and artwork.
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Addict
 
moonpi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao ➡️
i love all my ribbons and specially the r84. Then I heard a 44...Its simply insane. I have to agree, side by side it makes the 84 sound like a toy. check out the electric guitar amp on war´s jamsessions. then click on the 84... where did all the magic gone?

Id love to hear some feedback on the new 44 from AEA...440
You can also hear the R84 and the R92 with several other ribbon mics on Tuesday Testers.

My experience with the AEA A440 left the impression that it is an incredible sounding microphone and has the hottest, yet quietest on-board preamp available. It puts out level like a condenser mic. Seriously, it is a truly remarkable piece of electronics. But, is it for everyone? No. But, I'm not saying that very few folks could benefit from it, but that mic is really designed to be a room mic for film score recording which demands much more level and much lower noise floors than the traditional RCA 44 could provide. Plus, traditional ribbons can tend to sound so different when paired up with various pre-amps. This allows the scoring engineer to choose whichever pre-amplifier they desire, rather than being limited to a select few whose impedance and gain specs happen to match up... But again, what's the noise floor? Wes saw the needs of those engineers and delivered.

Overall, I think that it's a worthy microphone for a pro-studio with a large room and who does quite a bit of classical and/or jazz ensemble recording to consider purchasing a pair of. But I think that most of us would have our budgets better served with a pair of R84s or R44 variants and either the TRP or the RPQ.

But if someone were considering the R44CX and a high-end preamp to drive it, then it might be worth the extra money to them to go with the A440... if nothing more than for the flexibility.
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonpi ➡️
You can also hear the R84 and the R92 with several other ribbon mics on Tuesday Testers.

My experience with the AEA A440 left the impression that it is an incredible sounding microphone and has the hottest, yet quietest on-board preamp available. It puts out level like a condenser mic. Seriously, it is a truly remarkable piece of electronics. But, is it for everyone? No. But, I'm not saying that very few folks could benefit from it, but that mic is really designed to be a room mic for film score recording which demands much more level and much lower noise floors than the traditional RCA 44 could provide. Plus, traditional ribbons can tend to sound so different when paired up with various pre-amps. This allows the scoring engineer to choose whichever pre-amplifier they desire, rather than being limited to a select few whose impedance and gain specs happen to match up... But again, what's the noise floor? Wes saw the needs of those engineers and delivered.

Overall, I think that it's a worthy microphone for a pro-studio with a large room and who does quite a bit of classical and/or jazz ensemble recording to consider purchasing a pair of. But I think that most of us would have our budgets better served with a pair of R84s or R44 variants and either the TRP or the RPQ.

But if someone were considering the R44CX and a high-end preamp to drive it, then it might be worth the extra money to them to go with the A440... if nothing more than for the flexibility.
thanks for your input.

the thing is, I know I will get a 44 sooner or later. I think its the only mic I heard that really has a magical sound. beautiful really. But a bit noisy. I already run into noise problems with the 84, I imagine the 44 to be even worst. and I dont use the 84, or wouldnt use a 44, just for overall room. i use it everywere from close to mid and distant micing. Vocals, drums, bass and guitar cabs, percursion, brass, strings....
im getting so ribbon freak that my late recordings are showing a bit too much of noise hiss. It stacks...Thats why I thought that a mic that sounds like a 44 and delivers a hotter output would be just the ticket. Id have to sell my car or so to buy a pair but...Id love to hear a blumlein of 440s...
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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moonpi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao ➡️
thanks for your input.

the thing is, I know I will get a 44 sooner or later. I think its the only mic I heard that really has a magical sound. beautiful really. But a bit noisy. I already run into noise problems with the 84, I imagine the 44 to be even worst. and I dont use the 84, or wouldnt use a 44, just for overall room. i use it everywere from close to mid and distant micing. Vocals, drums, bass and guitar cabs, percursion, brass, strings....
im getting so ribbon freak that my late recordings are showing a bit too much of noise hiss. It stacks...Thats why I thought that a mic that sounds like a 44 and delivers a hotter output would be just the ticket. Id have to sell my car or so to buy a pair but...Id love to hear a blumlein of 440s...
The noise you have experienced are likely to have more to do with the choice of preamplifier than specifically with the R84 or R44 itself. What have you been using with ribbons? I really think that anyone who is experiencing noise in their ribbon mic setup should at the very least give the TRP or the RPQ a try (I'll qualify this and admit that I have not tried the RPQ yet since it hasn't been shipped as of yet - although it is a different preamplifier design, it is very much in the same "clean gain" end of the spectrum). I've recorded many fairly low level signals (mandolin, acoustic guitar, etc.) with the R84 with the TRP and have never experienced any significant noise... in that configuration. I DO get noise when I pair up a UA 610 with an R84, but that's more like classic "glue" and would only be debilitating were I recording something that demanded that no noise be present; in which case I'd automatically reach for the TRP. It's seriously clean and allows the all the character of the mic to shine through.

Another thing that I really like about the TRP is that it doesn't cause ribbons to sound "bloated" in the lows/lower-mids. It's just even frequency response top to bottom and I rarely need eq.

I'm with you, Dog_Chao_Chao, that I'd like to hear a Blumlein pair of A440s! I think it would be a pretty stunning stereo image.

BTW, I checked out your studio and I really like your ceiling in your live room! I bet that sounds great!thumbsup
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston ➡️
With a $130 Nady RSM 2 thrown in for kicks.
Hey Lynn, A pair of RSM 2's got me by for a few years, but when I bought mine they were $230!

One factor to consider in comparing a vintage RCA 44 with the AEA mics would be hardiness and reliability. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I've never owned a real 44, but have had experience with them in the studio, and it seems to me that those old mics have to be handled with kid gloves, treated with utmost care, and perform best if not moved around very much. I've avoided purchasing vintage ribbons for that reason. Of course all ribbon mics are delicate and cannot be knocked around, but I probably wouldn't choose an old 44 for going out on location recording gigs.

John
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
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moonpi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hedger ➡️
One factor to consider in comparing a vintage RCA 44 with the AEA mics would be hardiness and reliability. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I've never owned a real 44, but have had experience with them in the studio, and it seems to me that those old mics have to be handled with kid gloves, treated with utmost care, and perform best if not moved around very much. I've avoided purchasing vintage ribbons for that reason. Of course all ribbon mics are delicate and cannot be knocked around, but I probably wouldn't choose an old 44 for going out on location recording gigs.

John
Hey John,

I agree with you there on the hardiness and reliability of the AEA R44; it's seriously solid whereas all my experiences with a vintage 44, though one could easily kill someone with one, still made me feel like I could damage it fairly easily. Essentially, an R44 IS an RCA 44 considering that everything is a 1 to 1 match including NOS ribbon material and ensuring that the magnet materials, size, and shape are exact. AEA states that each part of an R44 can be substituted in a vintage RCA 44. It's a strange phenomenon...
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
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Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonpi ➡️
The noise you have experienced are likely to have more to do with the choice of preamplifier than specifically with the R84 or R44 itself. What have you been using with ribbons? .

Another thing that I really like about the TRP is that it doesn't cause ribbons to sound "bloated" in the lows/lower-mids. It's just even frequency response top to bottom and I rarely need eq.

I'm with you, Dog_Chao_Chao, that I'd like to hear a Blumlein pair of A440s! I think it would be a pretty stunning stereo image.

BTW, I checked out your studio and I really like your ceiling in your live room! I bet that sounds great!thumbsup
Thanks. ive been using ribbons with 1073´s and apis. Also Vintagedesign CA73 (80dbs gain). Maybe I should try the TRP. I have thought of it so many times, I just concluded that with 8 preamps delivering 80dbs of high end gain I wouldnt need anything else.
I now have enough ribbon mics to justify trying a TRP so...(lately Ive been tracking with m160/m130 in ms! really fun).

My studio´s site??? iaics...I really need to update it. That live room is nice but doesnt work for everything. Produces a bit to much 150hz. Other than that it sounds good. i wish It had a higher ceiling....
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Nut
 
opegas's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have to defend the R84, certainly not a toy. Its really a placement thing. If you know how to place it compared to a R44 to get the proximity about the same, you can hear how much they are similar/different.
I don't thing the RCA vs. AEA are any more fragile. I wouldn't necesarily handle them diffferently. If a stand boom fails and you drop one on a musician they will be just pissed either way.

I just did a live Bud Shank recording with the A440 on sax. It sounded fantastic. Turns out his favorite mic had been the RCA 44. That thing had so much output that the gain on my Grace m801 was all the way down a 18dB.

paul
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
The R84 has one major indisputable advantage over a 44.

It doesn't weigh 8 pounds.

There are circumstances and situations where this is a major consideration. Like what kind of stand you can put it on. There are lots of stands that won't hold an 8 lb. mic without fear and trepidation.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
This is true. (though I still want one!)

Lynn - You have used the R84. Would you consider it a toy in any way? Do you consider its high end hyped in any way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston ➡️
The R84 has one major indisputable advantage over a 44.

It doesn't weigh 8 pounds.

There are circumstances and situations where this is a major consideration. Like what kind of stand you can put it on. There are lots of stands that won't hold an 8 lb. mic without fear and trepidation.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➡️
Lynn - You have used the R84. Would you consider it a toy in any way? Do you consider its high end hyped in any way?
Well, before I enter into this fray, we should clear up one thing. UBK didn't say it was a toy. He said it was a "fantastic tool." To refresh:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ubk
i've used the 92 a few times, and i adore the 84, but it needs to be said: neither of those mics holds a candle to a real 44. they are fantastic tools in their own right, but the depth, character, and smoothness of a 44 are utterly unreal and, in a side-by-side, can make the others sound a bit like toys.
I have much more limited experience with the 44, but extensive experience with R84s (I own a pair) and less with the R92s (I own a pair), so take that into consideration.

I like the 44. I don't own one but I'd love to and probably will. I love the R84. I use it, other than for rhythm section tracking, on just about every session I do. Brass, strings, vocals. I use it all over the place. I adore what it does and I routinely put it up against other ribbon mics (of which I own more than a dozen) of my own or loaners and I rarely find anything I like better.

I did a voiceover on a radio spot once where they wanted the guy to sound like Lorne Green (Bonanza). The 44 was first call and it didn't disappoint. For authority and low end it's hard to beat. Most people don't realize when working a 44 up close that the proximity boost on the low end extends out feet, not inches. Literally 3-4 feet. In my experience (and recent testing, which I'll post the audio files soon), the proximity boost on the R84 extends out to about 18-24". (Wes Dooley didn't tell me that and he might disagree. Again that's just my subjective opinion based on listening.)

So it depends on how you use it, how you position it and the instrument.

To conclude, I think, like UBK, that the R84 is a fantastic tool. I've never thought it sounded like a toy, even by comparison to a 44. Or a 77DX, which I own. Or a 74B, which I own. Or a 122, which I own. Or any other ribbon mic I've worked with or heard.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I understand - I am not interested in any battle with UBK - as we made peace earlier.

But I was curoius in your comparisions, if your thought "a bit like a toy" might fit. It sounds like your answer is "no."


Afterthought (after Lynn's post below)- actually - all I am really getting at here is that it is a high end mic and that no one should think that they cannot do a professional recording with it when used correctly.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➡️
I was curoius in your comparisions, if your thought "a bit like a toy" might fit. It sounds like your answer is "no."
That's my final answer.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #48
Kush Audio
 
u b k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➡️
I am not interested in any battle with UBK - as we made peace earlier.

for now, ab3... for now.


heh


gregory scott - 'ubk'
.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #49
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I am trying to live in the "now" anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➡️
for now, ab3... for now.


heh


gregory scott - 'ubk'
.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #50
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chet.d's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
in any case, this is why i've begun avoiding a/b comparisons wherever possible... i end up finding fault with things that really can't be faulted unless and until they're placed ass-to-ass with something superior. the result is an endless circle of chasing perfection, which ignores the reality that perfection is never needed, let alone possible.


gregory scott - 'ubk'
.[/QUOTE]


very well put sir.

still I'm weak, and lust after a 44... I feel like I'm cheating on my r84 by saying that.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #51
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andersmv's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d ➡️
very well put sir.

still I'm weak, and lust after a 44... I feel like I'm cheating on my r84 by saying that.

That's like saying you are cheating on your BMW M3 by wanting a bugatti veyron... Don't feel bad, it is what it is and a 44 it will never be.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #52
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Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I do love my 84 also. i dont think it shows any kind of hyped top or whatever. It sounds great and I thought it was the end of the line for me, in the ribbon department...
Its just that I was shocked when I heard the 44. And its not just a proximity effect thing. its way beyond written explanation... I didnt know it was possible for a mic to turn the source in nothing but itself at it best in the most creamy and magical way.
When you hear the 84 again after that experience, it still sounds nice, but theres no magic whatsoever, almost no cream, compared. Boring. And thats why I kind of felt like after hearing the 44 the 84 was a toy version of it. Now that I dont have the 44 and i dont hear it for sometime, thus keeping my sanity, I use the 84 everyday and think its just great. But I have wet dreams at night
Oh, by the way, I also have the AEA mic stand, wich is expensive like hell, but also great and will deal with any mic you like so, if everyone wants to give away his 44...i have just the right pedestral for it!!!
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #53
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I hope your description also applies to the AEA A440. I hope to try one out someday.

Do you think there are some sources that are better with the 84 and the 44? For instance, I really like the 84 on mandolin. Seems just right. I do not find any need to make it more "creamy." On the other hand, what do I know, I have not tried the 44.

I would think there are some sources where extra cream and magic are useful and some where the R84 gets it just right.

Any comments on that?
THANKS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao ➡️
I do love my 84 also. i dont think it shows any kind of hyped top or whatever. It sounds great and I thought it was the end of the line for me, in the ribbon department...
Its just that I was shocked when I heard the 44. And its not just a proximity effect thing. its way beyond written explanation... I didnt know it was possible for a mic to turn the source in nothing but itself at it best in the most creamy and magical way.
When you hear the 84 again after that experience, it still sounds nice, but theres no magic whatsoever, almost no cream, compared. Boring. And thats why I kind of felt like after hearing the 44 the 84 was a toy version of it. Now that I dont have the 44 and i dont hear it for sometime, thus keeping my sanity, I use the 84 everyday and think its just great. But I have wet dreams at night
Oh, by the way, I also have the AEA mic stand, wich is expensive like hell, but also great and will deal with any mic you like so, if everyone wants to give away his 44...i have just the right pedestral for it!!!
Old 15th February 2009 | Show parent
  #54
Gear Addict
 
moonpi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by opegas ➡️
I have to defend the R84, certainly not a toy. Its really a placement thing. If you know how to place it compared to a R44 to get the proximity about the same, you can hear how much they are similar/different.
I don't thing the RCA vs. AEA are any more fragile. I wouldn't necesarily handle them diffferently. If a stand boom fails and you drop one on a musician they will be just pissed either way.

I just did a live Bud Shank recording with the A440 on sax. It sounded fantastic. Turns out his favorite mic had been the RCA 44. That thing had so much output that the gain on my Grace m801 was all the way down a 18dB.

paul
Actually, if the boom stand falls and a 44 hits the musician, he won't be pissed... he'll be dead!

I'll back you up on the R84 not being a toy. It's certainly lightweight compared to most mics; especially when you factor in the normal size/weight ratio that we're used to in microphones. I don't have to tell you this, Paul, but for the rest of the folks... the R84 has the same transformer as the R44... it is just lighter because of the different magnetic materials used.

The sound is there! Compared to an R44, it's missing that huge yet smooth bottom, but when you put the R84 up against just about any other ribbon microphone, you are going to find that it works better on more sources than probably any other ribbon; yes, even those costing almost twice as much.
Old 15th February 2009 | Show parent
  #55
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moonpi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➡️
I hope your description also applies to the AEA A440. I hope to try one out someday.

Do you think there are some sources that are better with the 84 and the 44? For instance, I really like the 84 on mandolin. Seems just right. I do not find any need to make it more "creamy." On the other hand, what do I know, I have not tried the 44.
I'll second you on this. I recorded a mandolin (played by the excellent Harris Gardner) late last year and used the R84 through the TRP feeding an LA2A and it was just incredible. PERFECT, in fact. I think that it's one of those magical combinations.
Old 15th February 2009 | Show parent
  #56
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for your posts. I also found this magic with a piccolo trumpet (like you hear on Handel's Messiah.) And I love a pair of them on flute and BASS FLUTE. I will have to post a bass flute sample sometime here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonpi ➡️
I'll second you on this. I recorded a mandolin (played by the excellent Harris Gardner) late last year and used the R84 through the TRP feeding an LA2A and it was just incredible. PERFECT, in fact. I think that it's one of those magical combinations.
Old 15th February 2009 | Show parent
  #57
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moonpi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➡️
Thanks for your posts. I also found this magic with a piccolo trumpet (like you hear on Handel's Messiah.) And I love a pair of them on flute and BASS FLUTE. I will have to post a bass flute sample sometime here.
Do it! I'd love to hear it!
Old 15th February 2009 | Show parent
  #58
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Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➡️
I hope your description also applies to the AEA A440. I hope to try one out someday.

Do you think there are some sources that are better with the 84 and the 44? For instance, I really like the 84 on mandolin. Seems just right. I do not find any need to make it more "creamy." On the other hand, what do I know, I have not tried the 44.

I would think there are some sources where extra cream and magic are useful and some where the R84 gets it just right.

Any comments on that?
THANKS.
Never tried the 440...would love to.

About your comment: like any other mic, or pair of mics, you might find that one is better than the other for a specific source or goal, and the other way around with a different source or work in mind. So, even if you had a 44 maybe you would still prefer the 84 on your mandolin. And I can see it happening. the 84 has a lighter sonic print and less proximity effect wich can be better for your task. its just that the 44 is unreal, something from another realm in terms of making something sound warm, sweet, huge and beautiful...maybe not good for mandolin, dont know, never tried that myself...
Old 15th February 2009 | Show parent
  #59
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
All 3 mics are demoed here (see Jam Room Sessions).

studioXXXauditionsDOTcom

Remove XXX, and replace DOT with .
Old 15th February 2009 | Show parent
  #60
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Great comments. Thanks.
In your experience, what source(s) have your particular liked with the 44?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao ➡️
Never tried the 440...would love to.

About your comment: like any other mic, or pair of mics, you might find that one is better than the other for a specific source or goal, and the other way around with a different source or work in mind. So, even if you had a 44 maybe you would still prefer the 84 on your mandolin. And I can see it happening. the 84 has a lighter sonic print and less proximity effect wich can be better for your task. its just that the 44 is unreal, something from another realm in terms of making something sound warm, sweet, huge and beautiful...maybe not good for mandolin, dont know, never tried that myself...
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