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Lexicon reverbs: a brief bestiary
Old 9th April 2009 | Show parent
  #151
11413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody Special ➑️
The LXP-15 and MPX-1 both provided many different reverb algorithms as well as FX of various sorts. Pantheon is awfully convenient in a DAW environment, but either of those older boxes could do good service on a AUX path.
just to confirm this, the LXP-15 (especially with mk2 chip) is a great box for strange sounds.... it also has 5 cv inputs for pedals or a slider box for some realtime control.... if you get 2 and run em in dual mono you can get some really nice reverbs with em.

call me crazy but i'd rather have 2 LXP-15mk2s (and the leftover cash) than a pcm-90/1. the pcm-90 is too thin for my tastes.... I like the old pcm60s for their simplicity too.

simplicity is under rated.... lex pcm 60, eventide 2016, bricasti m7
Old 9th April 2009 | Show parent
  #152
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 ➑️
just to confirm this, the LXP-15 (especially with mk2 chip) is a great box for strange sounds
OK, any differences between reverb algorithms on LXP-15 and LXP-15 mk II? Also, is the mk2 chip still available?

Thanks,

Sean (reverb geek, LXP-15 owner)
Old 9th April 2009 | Show parent
  #153
11413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➑️
OK, any differences between reverb algorithms on LXP-15 and LXP-15 mk II? Also, is the mk2 chip still available?
i did the update a LONG time ago... so no help on getting the proms now.

i remember they sounded better with v2 and the OS was faster... paging around didnt seem so sluggish.

i think the chips used to cost $75 or so.... maybe ebay if they're no longer sold?
Old 10th April 2009 | Show parent
  #154
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🎧 10 years
Hi guys,

What's a reasonable price range for a second hand LXP-15 these days? I'm thinking that I'd like to get one.
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #155
ValhallaDSP
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmoorhs ➑️
What's a reasonable price range for a second hand LXP-15 these days? I'm thinking that I'd like to get one.
I paid $100 off of Craigslist about a month ago. Most of the prices I have seen are somewhat higher, in the $150 to $175 range. It is definitely worth $100. It is a very deep unit, physically, but the power supply is built in - no wall wart.

Sean
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #156
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➑️
I paid $100 off of Craigslist about a month ago. Most of the prices I have seen are somewhat higher, in the $150 to $175 range. It is definitely worth $100. It is a very deep unit, physically, but the power supply is built in - no wall wart.

Sean
Thanks for the info Sean. I saw one for Β£160 which is over $200, so I guess it wasn't much of a bargain after all. I kinda went off the idea of a mkI anyway, after reading more about the mkII improvements.
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #157
ValhallaDSP
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmoorhs ➑️
Thanks for the info Sean. I saw one for Β£160 which is over $200, so I guess it wasn't much of a bargain after all. I kinda went off the idea of a mkI anyway, after reading more about the mkII improvements.
I just got an email from Lexicon, that they did not have the update ROMs for the LXP-15. You'd think that they would have ROM images and a burner, but oh well. I'll track down the ROMs at some point.

Sean
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #158
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🎧 15 years
To the owners of the PCM96 : what is your preferred algorithm?
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #159
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rolo95's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This question is for NobodySpecial
or anyone that can answer it...


Why Lexicon Pantheon Plugin , dont resemble any of the hardware LEX units...

it sound harshy and metallic....

it is not smooth....

Seems that they have used code that was not used on their hardware units...

Any light on this ?
Thanks
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #160
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 ➑️
To the owners of the PCM96 : what is your preferred algorithm?
It's tough to beat a good Lexicon Hall and these are very good. I also like the plates and chambers.
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #161
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo95 ➑️
Why Lexicon Pantheon Plugin , dont resemble any of the hardware LEX units...
it sound harshy and metallic....

it is not smooth....

Seems that they have used code that was not used on their hardware units...
Yep, it's just not up to the level of the hardware units, I'm afraid.
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #162
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🎧 15 years
so Lexicon is afraid to roll out any of the "big boys" code in VST form
because of reverse engineering... or hack/ stole of the code... ?

or just they want to make people BUY Hardware units as they also make profit on the metal frames and hardware parts....

Any insights ??
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #163
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo95 ➑️
so Lexicon is afraid to roll out any of the "big boys" code in VST form
because of reverse engineering... or hack/ stole of the code... ?

or just they want to make people BUY Hardware units as they also make profit on the metal frames and hardware parts....

Any insights ??
of course plugins are a good source of revenue, and protecting their code is only logical - whatever the case it's their company and they have the right to do as they like with their products. the buyer has the right to buy them or not.

speculating about why they do this or that i think is kind of a waste of time...
Old 13th April 2009 | Show parent
  #164
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🎧 15 years
Agreed
Old 14th April 2009 | Show parent
  #165
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🎧 15 years
Further agreement.

The question isn't merely bait, it's bait with an insult.
Old 14th April 2009 | Show parent
  #166
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Fishmed's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo95 ➑️
This question is for NobodySpecial
or anyone that can answer it...


Why Lexicon Pantheon Plugin , dont resemble any of the hardware LEX units...

it sound harshy and metallic....

it is not smooth....

Seems that they have used code that was not used on their hardware units...

Any light on this ?
Thanks
I thought the Patheon sounds close to the MPX-100.
Old 14th April 2009 | Show parent
  #167
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo95 ➑️
so Lexicon is afraid to roll out any of the "big boys" code in VST form
because of reverse engineering... or hack/ stole of the code... ?
My guess is that it would be MUCH harder to reverse engineer a plugin, in order to copy an algorithm, than to get the same algorithm from a piece of hardware. PC disassembly is kinda nightmarish. So I doubt that Lexicon is emphasizing hardware in order to protect their IP from reverse engineering.

Hacking of the copy protection, on the other hand, is fairly easy. At least I presume so, looking at the number of plugins that are cracked. So, Lexicon may be afraid of people stealing the plugins themselves. Which seems like a pretty justified concern.

Quote:
or just they want to make people BUY Hardware units as they also make profit on the metal frames and hardware parts....
Probably. It turns out that a lot of business plans involve profit.

Plus, the metal frames and hardware make the algorithms harder to steal than if it was in plugin form. You'd have to go into a store, grab it, and run, like ol' time stealing.

If Lexicon put their algorithms into plugin form, it would undoubtedly make using the algorithms easier for most users of DAWs. However, just because it would be more convenient does not make having Lexicon algorithms in plugin form an inalienable right for anyone.

Sean
Old 14th April 2009 | Show parent
  #168
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
It's tough to beat a good Lexicon Hall and these are very good. I also like the plates and chambers.
The Lexicon PCM96 have 3 Hall algorithms - Random Hall, Hall and Concert Hall - which one do you use the most?
Old 14th April 2009 | Show parent
  #169
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🎧 15 years
Sean

your last post bring me to this question....

Then why the pantheon sound so "bad" compared to their hardware counterparts...

or in more explicit way

Why they rolled out that VST that have nothing to do with a real Lexicon Verb...

The only thing that the Pantheon have good is the name LEXICON on it...
otherwise.... nothing....nada....
Rolo.
Old 14th April 2009 | Show parent
  #170
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 ➑️
The Lexicon PCM96 have 3 Hall algorithms - Random Hall, Hall and Concert Hall - which one do you use the most?
I lean towards the Hall for vocals and Concert Hall for orchestral work, two things I often use the 96 for, but even those are interchangeable.

I don't pull up the Random Hall simply out of habit to try the others first. I don't dislike it, I just don't remember to try it.
Old 14th April 2009 | Show parent
  #171
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🎧 15 years
So you prefer a Hall instead of a Plate for vocals....
Can you tell some more why you like a hall better....
Old 20th April 2009 | Show parent
  #172
ValhallaDSP
 
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🎧 10 years
A little more info on the various Lexicon machines, based upon the manuals:

It looks like all of the algorithms on the 224XL were time-varying, using what Lexicon refers to as "Chorus." Presumably this was implemented by changing the length of interpolated delay lines within the recursive part of the reverb, although the actual number of modulated delay lines, the location within the topology, and the type of modulation used probably varied between the algorithms.

The later reverbs in the pre-480L generation generally did not use time-variation, except for in the Concert Hall algorithm.

The 480L and later reverbs introduced a different type of time variation, with the terms Spin and Wander. I am unsure of how this was implemented, and it seems like the actual implementation varied between algorithms and possibly machines.

A breakdown of the some of the machines, with regards to time variation:

- 224XL: Chorus on all algorithms. An educated guess would be that Dark Hall has more modulation than the other algorithms.

- PCM60: No time variation

- PCM70: Chorus on Concert Hall only (well, chorus in the Chorus algorithm as well - I'm talking about reverb algorithms here)

- M200: Unknown. Since there is a shared lineage between the M200 and PCM70, I am going to guess that the Concert Hall has Chorus on it, at some preset value. I could be totally wrong.

- 480L: Spin and Wander on Random Hall, Ambience, and Surround/HD reverb. The Classic Cart has Chorus on Concert Hall, but not on Rich Plate for some reason (it was definitely listed for Rich Plate in the 224XL manual).

- 300: Spin and Wonder on Random Hall, Random Ambience. The Rich Plate and Split Chamber algorithms have something called "Randomization." Not sure what type of time-variation this is. Is this the Chorus parameter from the 224XL, or a variation of Spin/Wander?

- LXP1: No time variation

- LXP15: No time variation

- PCM80/81: Concert Hall has Chorus, other algorithms have Spin (presumably related to Spin/Wander).

- PC90/91: Random Hall and Ambience have Spin/Wander, Concert Hall has Chorus, other algorithms have Spin only.

- MPX1: No time variation.

- Lexiverb: Spin in Chamber and Plate algorithms.

It would be interesting to match people's Lexicon reverb preferences with the modulation types listed above, and see if any type of pattern emerges.

Sean
Old 22nd April 2009 | Show parent
  #173
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🎧 15 years
I've used the PCM70, PCM60, PCM91, LXP1, MPX550. kept the PCM91, and I should have kept the PCM70. I'm keeping an eye out for a broken one.
Old 4th May 2009 | Show parent
  #174
ValhallaDSP
 
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🎧 10 years
A few more Lexicon questions:

- There is a recent Digitech pedal, the Hardwire RV-7, that is advertised as having Lexicon algorithms. Are these closest to the MX series of boxes? How close are they to the Pantheon reverb?

- In the 224XL, there were algorithms labeled "Constant Density Plate." Did any similar algorithms make it into later Lexicons under a different name?

Sean
Old 4th May 2009 | Show parent
  #175
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➑️
A few more Lexicon questions:
- There is a recent Digitech pedal, the Hardwire RV-7. Are these closest to the MX series of boxes? How close are they to the Pantheon reverb?
Sean, I'm pretty sure that they owe their heritage to the MX boxes. I'll issue a correction if I find out anything different. Pantheon is more or less a one-off.

Quote:
- In the 224XL, there were algorithms labeled "Constant Density Plate." Did any similar algorithms make it into later Lexicons under a different name?
There are a few things at Lex that predate even me. The 224 is one of them. I'd wager that the plate you're speaking of passed on a lot of its DNA to the 480L, and from there on to everything else. I'll have to investigate that one of these days.
Old 4th May 2009 | Show parent
  #176
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody Special ➑️
I'll have to investigate that one of these days.
Sean, NS,

The constant density plate was Davids response to a very interesting time in the early days of digital reverberation.

I am glad you brought this up because this classic page should be included in this thread;

SST282_History

Alas, the CD plate did not survive the early days. It was a casualty of Davids penchant for advancing technology and leaving older "less desirable" work behind.



-Casey
Old 4th May 2009 | Show parent
  #177
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey ➑️
Sean, NS,

The constant density plate was Davids response to a very interesting time in the early days of digital reverberation.

I am glad you brought this up because this classic page should be included in this thread;

SST282_History
The SST algorithm is very nifty, for sure. How does it relate to the CD Plate? I have some ideas how a constant density plate would be done, just based on the name, but I wouldn't think that the SST would be very close. I could be totally wrong, of course. The SST has an increasing echo density. Unstable, to be sure, but the modulation is a very clever way of getting around this: move the resonances before they result in oscillation. My experiments with this algorithm back in the early oughts showed that the modulation allowed you to use about 3x the feedback gain of the non-modulated version before things got too ugly.

Quote:
Alas, the CD plate did not survive the early days. It was a casualty of Davids penchant for advancing technology and leaving older "less desirable" work behind.
What other algorithms got left behind? It seems like both the chamber and plate algorithms went through a few iterations before their final form; any other orphaned algorithms? Any of them, besides the constant density plate, worth remembering?

Or are you talking about the general progress of Lexicon algorithms from the 224XL to the 480L and onwards?

With the C++/floating point environment of the PCM96, it seems like a perfect opportunity to set the wayback machine to the early Lexicon days, and revive some of the older algorithms that have a good reputation nowadays. Additionally, some of the older tricks could be included as options (i.e. add 224XL-type Chorus to the algorithms, in addition to Shape and Spread). I am woefully ignorant about the algorithms of modern Lexicons, so these characteristics might already be in place.

A "classic Lexicon revival" might be horribly boring to NS, as he has mentioned that he has a huge stack of new ideas to try out as time permits. However, having a single box that implemented EVERY classic Lexicon algorithm from the high end boxes of the past, as well as the new hotness algorithms, would be a pretty desirable product for a lot of people.

Sean
Old 4th May 2009 | Show parent
  #178
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🎧 15 years
Isn't the sound of those older Lexicons as much about the early ADDAs of the time as the algorithms? The PCM96 already covers the best of Lexicon's past. I would rather see NS coding some new algorithms than porting older ones. Especially since the ones that got dropped along the way were probably the ones that didn't sound as good.
Old 4th May 2009 | Show parent
  #179
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthetic ➑️
I would rather see NS coding some new algorithms than porting older ones.
Maybe there are other Lexicon/Harman engineers that could aid in the porting task. I'm not trying to create boring work for NS, although I would certainly hope that a single poster's ideas on one forum would not have any impact on his job.

Quote:
Especially since the ones that got dropped along the way were probably the ones that didn't sound as good.
I'm sure this is true. Reading the 224XL manual, you come across algorithms like "Small Plate" and "Chamber" that seem like they were not as nice as the Rich Plate and Rich Chamber that followed. However, the CD Plates have a good rep, and the 224XL algorithms in general seem to have a different sound than the 480L and later units (with the exception of the 480L Classic Cart).

Sean
Old 4th May 2009 | Show parent
  #180
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➑️
I have some ideas how a constant density plate would be done, just based on the name....................
Casey described a constant density plate algorithm in another thread - not exactly like an EMT250, but similar.

Not many algorithms from the 224 has survived - only the Concert Hall?
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