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Lexicon reverbs: a brief bestiary
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #91
AB3
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🎧 15 years
My horse ran away. Carry on. And someday I hope to be a proud Bricasti owner.


[QUOTE=Casey;4067225]Get off your High Horse AB3. This is a discussion of Lexicon and other reverb architectures. It has become very technical. I commented on the latest Lexicon technology. NS corrected me. Start a Bricasti technology thread and I'll comment on Bricasti technology. If you have the technical chops then chime in. Not everything is a sales pitch.

-Casey[/QUOTE
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➑️


-Casey
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #93
outofphase
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey ➑️
I have two words for you Dale; Strip Mining.

Todays DDR SDRAMS are much faster than the SRAM you are using. What do you have against burst access?

Nobody Special never really bought into burst access. I don't know why. The PCM96 does not use SDRAM for it's main reverb loops. The PCM96 uses a SHARC with barely enough internal memory to run a pair of Lexicon reverbs. This is a huge limitation on advancing the quality of Lexicons algorithms.

This is either because NS does not understand how to use modern SDRAM, or much more likely, by keeping the memory cycles in the chip, it makes it harder to reverse engineer the algorithms. Neither explaination is a satisfactory reason to limit the capabilities of a high end system IMO.

-Casey
OUCH
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #94
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🎧 15 years
WTF just happened here? This thread started off great - incredibly informative - then it took an entirely unnecessary turn and dove off a cliff. It's gone embarrassingly unprofessional and the point has been hijacked.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #95
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🎧 15 years
If there is gonna be a reverb architect showdown, shouldn't you guys record your voices with your best voice of god algorithm, and let us decide the which one sounds the fiercest? j/k

I'm geeking out on the memory architecture discussion. Keep it up. Last I checked great hardware will never make ****ty software run better whereas the converse is true.

I don't think the thread is dead. There is a lot that you can pull out of this information. We can see that the direction of both the PCM96 and Bricasti M7 have completely different directions of thinking. This will lead to innovation. We can clearly see there is strong sense of competition, this is awesome for us. These guys are going to duke it out with their respective technology, and thats very cool. Remember with text it is so easy to read oppositie of what is intended and it's even easier to type something that will be taken out of context.

I'm intentionally trying to ask pointed questions to get these guys to geek out because it reveals so much. It is obvious these guys are passionate about their development, and engineers who are passionate are typically misinterpreted. As far as i'm concerned, Lexicon and Bricasti are demonstrating that they're going to be leading the way in the next couple years. Where is TC? Where is Eventide? not here. I'm in these companies prime demographic, and I'm paying attention.

I'm dying to know what dsp's are in each reverb? and how they accomplished certain things? and how things are built, but it is proprietary information, and it's a waste of time to even ask.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qtuner ➑️
As far as i'm concerned, Lexicon and Bricasti are demonstrating that they're going to be leading the way in the next couple years.
Leading the way to Reverb technology or FX in general? I hardly think there is a competition between Lexicon or Bricasti and Eventide, for instance. I always thought that Lexicon and Bricasti are primarily reverb-oriented whereas Eventide machines do so much more.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #97
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurDarkness ➑️
I always thought that Lexicon and Bricasti are primarily reverb-oriented whereas Eventide machines do so much more.
Did you know the PCM96 also has flange/chorus, various sorts of delay algorithms, resonators and pitch shifters? While it's certainly true that we don't do the sort of harmonization that Eventide does (we leave that to the Vocalist series of our sister company Digitech), the shifter is still very good for video pulldown corrections or other pitch effects. One of the shifters in the 96 Surround has 15 independently-shifting voices. Some of the presets proved to be very upsetting to some of my colleagues.heh

Eventide is very good at what they do, and they've got some good folks working there. Just wanted to point out that we haven't conceded on the non-reverb effects front.

'OurDarkness' is kind of a scary handle, I must say.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #98
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🎧 15 years
I didn't mean to start a flame war... stike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody Special ➑️
Dale, you're basically correct here (with a big caveat that I'll get to)....But as soon as you start hopping around (as you might do with a traditionally-coded reverberator) you may easily incur 12-15 wait-states for every access.
That's what I was referring to. Obviously you could code around it, processing whatever effect you wanted to, doing it in chunks, or interleaving the delay lines, or any other number of other ways of doing it. All I said is that for a cost-insensitive one-off of any box I build for myself, I just toss down one (or more) 5ns or maybe 10ns SRAM's - cache memories - so that if I want to code a long digital delay on a sample-by-sample without paying attention to what's in a cache, it costs me the same wait states (one on a DSP56366 - that's the minimum for an external RAM access) regardless of where I go. So if I want to code a multitap delay that mimics what daisy-chaining three dozen Studer tape decks with a single tape loop going through them, that only costs 72 clock cycles, and it doesn't matter that the taps are in very different pages of RAM - or even different RAM chips.
Quote:
Normally SDRAMs are used in systems with decent-sized caches, so you can take advantage of the speed when pulling in a burst (without as much penalty from the random accesses). Caches on most DSP chips don't quite work as efficiently, so you have to adjust the way you code so you can still get all the goodies.

So if you're working with regular DRAM or static RAM, one memory access is pretty much the same as another. But those parts are obsolete. SD/DDRAMs are in the sweet spot for cost/performance, so you have to learn to get the most out of them.
From a hardware point of view, a relatively fast (60ns) obsolete (1994) DRAM access time and write precharge time totals 120ns. Taking a relatively slow SDRAM (166 MHZ SDR - I picked it because have the datasheet right in front of me), a single read or write access takes 60 ns, but you can burst at 6ns, so accessing 11 words takes only twice as long as accessing one. A 35ns EDO RAM also indicates the same 60ns read/precharge time.

This similarity does not surprise me because the column read amplifiers are still an array of analogue comparators and analogue circuit advances tend to motor along at a slow but steady rate. A static RAM also has an array of read amplifiers but the signal strength of the output of a six-transistor SRAM cell is much higher (close to standard digital levels) than that of a single-transistor DRAM. Other single-transistor memory types - EPROM, EEPROM, and FLASH - also tend to have an access time that does not routinely beat 15 or 20ns, where SRAM is routinely available in the sub-2ns region.

I doubt that SRAM will go obsolete any time soon. There are a number of embedded applications that need the reliability, wide temperature range, and steady operation of SRAM. It's just relatively expensive. Also, cache RAM = SRAM.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #99
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dale116dot7 ➑️
I doubt that SRAM will go obsolete any time soon. There are a number of embedded applications that need the reliability, wide temperature range, and steady operation of SRAM. It's just relatively expensive. Also, cache RAM = SRAM.
You're right there of course. What I meant to say was that from a manufacturer's point of view, SDRAM/DDRAM make much more sense in terms of cost, density, availability and so on.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #100
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Fishmed's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody Special ➑️
Did you know the PCM96 also has flange/chorus, various sorts of delay algorithms, resonators and pitch shifters? While it's certainly true that we don't do the sort of harmonization that Eventide does (we leave that to the Vocalist series of our sister company Digitech), the shifter is still very good for video pulldown corrections or other pitch effects. One of the shifters in the 96 Surround has 15 independently-shifting voices. Some of the presets proved to be very upsetting to some of my colleagues.heh

Eventide is very good at what they do, and they've got some good folks working there. Just wanted to point out that we haven't conceded on the non-reverb effects front.

'OurDarkness' is kind of a scary handle, I must say.
This may be OT, but why doesn't Harman, shift the "Lower-End" reverb/effects from Lexicon to Digitech? Would that not improve the overall marketing and image of both brands? They could then market Digitech with Lexicon reverb/effects & DBX compression.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #101
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
WTF just happened here? This thread started off great - incredibly informative - then it took an entirely unnecessary turn and dove off a cliff. It's gone embarrassingly unprofessional and the point has been hijacked.
casey makes the best digital reverb i've ever heard... so i accept his word as AUTHORITY until someone makes a better one.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #102
AB3
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🎧 15 years
Lots of people I trust think the Bricasti is the best. And I would LOVE to have one ASAP!

And that deserves its own thread (of which there probably already are some.)

Read the original post again and please tell me what this thread is about?

And this is not meant as anything against Casey from Bricasti. I have read enough of his posts to where I see him being fair about his competitors, in many ways that a couple of others on GS have not been. So he is obviously a good guy.

But still - what is this topic as related to the first post??? And does that ever really matter on this board??? heh


Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 ➑️
casey makes the best digital reverb i've ever heard... so i accept his word as AUTHORITY until someone makes a better one.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody Special ➑️
Can't tell you how wrong you are about that Casey, but thanks for the chuckle.
Yes alright, I assumed and made an ass of myself.

Reading through some of your earlier posts, I came away with the the sense that you were using the internal RAM to run your entire loop. The large TigerSHARC surprisingly does have enough memory to do it.

Sorry everybody for the unprofessional comments that were clearly based on my incorrect assumption. tutt



-Casey
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #104
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey ➑️
Yes alright, I assumed and made an ass of myself. ... Sorry everybody for the unprofessional comments that were clearly based on my incorrect assumption. tutt
you're forgiven, provided you release v2 for the M7 sometime in 2009
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #105
AB3
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🎧 15 years
Casey - humility is a great human quality and sometimes lacking on GS.

You are a class act in my book. It only makes me want to get your product even more.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #106
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 ➑️
humility is a great human quality.
Yes, but it's never an excuse for poor performance!

I think I'll go back to the safe softball question;

My favorite Lex algorithm was Davids last reverb on the 480 that I am aware of. He developed the Surround (or HD for stereo) algorithm that used the entire 480.

I really like it's chorusing in both the very unique earlies and in the reverb itself. Of course David would kill me for saying that as he considers these to be undesirable artifacts. It also has this really interesting modulating lowend that actually sounds kind of bad on it's own, but really sounds great on the right source and in a mix.



-Casey
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #107
ValhallaDSP
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody Special ➑️
So if you're working with regular DRAM or static RAM, one memory access is pretty much the same as another. But those parts are obsolete. SD/DDRAMs are in the sweet spot for cost/performance, so you have to learn to get the most out of them.
Techie Lexi question: Were there any problems adapting any of the older algorithms (480L, Concert Hall) to work with modern RAM/DSP/cache-based system designs?

Another techie question: How much of the memory for the PCM96 is managed manually, versus handled by the compiler?

Sean Costello
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #108
Gear Guru
 
elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 ➑️
casey makes the best digital reverb i've ever heard... so i accept his word as AUTHORITY until someone makes a better one.
Be careful how much blind trust you put in your authorities... From Casey:

"Reading through some of your earlier posts, I came away with the the sense that you were using the internal RAM to run your entire loop. The large TigerSHARC surprisingly does have enough memory to do it."

Casey's brain is filled with some of the most relevant data about reverb, and he's the man when it comes to the Bricasti, but, as he himself has now admitted, he doesn't (yet) know everything about the 96.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #109
Gear Guru
 
elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey ➑️
Sorry everybody for the unprofessional comments that were clearly based on my incorrect assumption. tutt
If I had a nickel for every time I made a false assumption and posted something about it... well, I'd need a big coin jar.

No sweat Casey. Cool of you to mention it. You're still the man.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #110
Lives for gear
 
OurDarkness's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody Special ➑️
Did you know the PCM96 also has flange/chorus, various sorts of delay algorithms, resonators and pitch shifters? While it's certainly true that we don't do the sort of harmonization that Eventide does (we leave that to the Vocalist series of our sister company Digitech), the shifter is still very good for video pulldown corrections or other pitch effects. One of the shifters in the 96 Surround has 15 independently-shifting voices. Some of the presets proved to be very upsetting to some of my colleagues.heh

Eventide is very good at what they do, and they've got some good folks working there. Just wanted to point out that we haven't conceded on the non-reverb effects front.

'OurDarkness' is kind of a scary handle, I must say.
Hi NobodySpecial,

good to know that the PCM96 has some extra goodies in it. To be honest, I didn't know it had any of the stuff you mentioned - as far as I am concerned they are good to be around in case someone needs them.

Could you explain a little if you can do various kind of routings between these presets? Can you mention a very heavy DSP-wise chain? I will be buying a new reverb in the not too-distant feature so I have my eye on both the Lexicon and the Bricasti. I asked in another thread for the kind of difference between the reverbs of Bricasti and Lexicon compared to the ones in the Eventide H-8000 FW and TC Electronic M-3000 and didn't get a very satisfactory answer. I think I am going to have to toss a coin since it's difficult to me to audition these units without buying them first...

Anyway, my nickname is one of the best electro tracks I have ever heard. Check this out:

YouTube - Anne Clark - Our Darkness (1984) (Remix)

Not scary after all, eh?

Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #111
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurDarkness ➑️
Hi NobodySpecial,
Could you explain a little if you can do various kind of routings between these presets? Can you mention a very heavy DSP-wise chain? ...

I asked in another thread for the kind of difference between the reverbs of Bricasti and Lexicon compared to the ones in the Eventide H-8000 FW and TC Electronic M-3000 and didn't get a very satisfactory answer.
DSP routing depends in large part on whether you're running as a plugin or standalone. For plugin, the routing is dependent on how you structure your effects inserts. If you've got stereo strips, then you can instantiate two plugins with any algorithm you like in either one. Or you could pop someone else's plugin into that same signal flow.

If you're running standalone, then we give you several system configurations to choose from. For example, the stereo cascade gives you two stereo machines. Input comes from your desk to one machine, is processed and internally routed into the other machine for more processing, and then comes back to your desk. You can put any algorithm you want in either machine. The PCM96 ships with several of these system-level presets. For example, there are several nifty reverb->flange arrangements. If I remember correctly, I put in a couple of verb->pitch-shifter presets (not for use right after eating). You can create and save your own as well.

We don't currently have algorithms with a deeper level of internal routing as you might have found in the MPX-1. What we have is a little simpler to understand but still quite powerful.

Now to your question concerning the difference between reverbs in TC, Eventide, Bricasti and Lex. The nature of a forum like this means that there's always going to be some bias in descriptions. People tend to prefer whatever they just dropped a chunk of money on. And of course we don't really have a very good descriptive language anyway. If someone's interest is in metal, then they're going to be tuned into different things than someone mixing choirs. Every product you've mentioned has some real strengths, but they may not be in the areas most important to you. Ideally you'd be able to grab something from a rental house and spend a couple of weeks with it before deciding. I'd be delighted if you took home a new PCM96. But I think it best if I let Casey answer questions specific to Bricasti and reps/users of TC/Eventide talk about their products. And I'll try to help with the Lex stuff.
Old 6th April 2009 | Show parent
  #112
Lives for gear
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody Special ➑️
DSP routing depends in large part on whether you're running as a plugin or standalone. For plugin, the routing is dependent on how you structure your effects inserts. If you've got stereo strips, then you can instantiate two plugins with any algorithm you like in either one. Or you could pop someone else's plugin into that same signal flow.

If you're running standalone, then we give you several system configurations to choose from. For example, the stereo cascade gives you two stereo machines. Input comes from your desk to one machine, is processed and internally routed into the other machine for more processing, and then comes back to your desk. You can put any algorithm you want in either machine. The PCM96 ships with several of these system-level presets. For example, there are several nifty reverb->flange arrangements. If I remember correctly, I put in a couple of verb->pitch-shifter presets (not for use right after eating). You can create and save your own as well.

We don't currently have algorithms with a deeper level of internal routing as you might have found in the MPX-1. What we have is a little simpler to understand but still quite powerful.

Now to your question concerning the difference between reverbs in TC, Eventide, Bricasti and Lex. The nature of a forum like this means that there's always going to be some bias in descriptions. People tend to prefer whatever they just dropped a chunk of money on. And of course we don't really have a very good descriptive language anyway. If someone's interest is in metal, then they're going to be tuned into different things than someone mixing choirs. Every product you've mentioned has some real strengths, but they may not be in the areas most important to you. Ideally you'd be able to grab something from a rental house and spend a couple of weeks with it before deciding. I'd be delighted if you took home a new PCM96. But I think it best if I let Casey answer questions specific to Bricasti and reps/users of TC/Eventide talk about their products. And I'll try to help with the Lex stuff.
Thanks for the detailed answer NS!
Old 7th April 2009 | Show parent
  #113
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aeonlux's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks so much for the discussion and information provided here in this thread. I have learned things, and in so doing, enjoyed it.

I have a number of reverb devices, and my two Lexicon NuVerbs, PCM-81, and LXP-15II rank highly among them.

The NuVerbs in particular achieve a sound for ambient electronic music that little else can, in my experience.

My other main reverb tools include an Eventide H8000FW, two Kurzweil KSP8s, t.c. electronic M3000, Sony DPS-V77, Roland SRV-330, and Roland RSS-303.

I hope to have a Bricasti M7 be among them at some point.

Algorithmic reverb rules!


cheers,
Ian
Old 7th April 2009 | Show parent
  #114
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Casey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeonlux ➑️
Algorithmic reverb rules!

cheers,
Ian


-Casey
Old 7th April 2009 | Show parent
  #115
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elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I agree. Convolution is excellent when you need a chameleon which can cover a slew of styles, but it never covers them excellently. The best IRs are still only "very good" - not on the level of the algorithmic reverbs we're talking about. The longer their tails trail off the more you recognize their artificiality.
Old 7th April 2009 | Show parent
  #116
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
how do you find the ksp8 next to the h8000 ? are imagined these would be very similiar in character ? ( clean and ' nu ' abd crystal clear ) I have looked at the ksp8 a bit but i always worried it would bea bit to similiar to the h8000 - ?

Lexicon wise i still love my old lxp5 - with soundiver its superb and great fun to edit.


>My other main reverb tools include an Eventide H8000FW, two Kurzweil >KSP8s, t.c. electronic M3000, Sony DPS-V77, Roland SRV-330, and Roland
Old 7th April 2009 | Show parent
  #117
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
convolution ?

i will say these impulses below are superb though some days though not as good as the real machines but i dont think the average listener could hear the difference.


Untitled Document

Untitled Document

Untitled Document








Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
I agree. Convolution is excellent when you need a chameleon which can cover a slew of styles, but it never covers them excellently. The best IRs are still only "very good" - not on the level of the algorithmic reverbs we're talking about. The longer their tails trail off the more you recognize their artificiality.
Old 7th April 2009 | Show parent
  #118
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Here's a list of the algorithms described so far, as well as an attempt to match algorithms to Lexicon units. Feel free to add on to this list, or suggest other boxes that use the listed algorithms.

Concert Hall: 224, 224X/XL, PCM70, PCM91 with additions (according to Casey), PCM96. Was this in the 200 as well?

Random Hall: 480L, 300, PCM90/91, PCM96

"New" Hall: 480L, PCM90/91, 300, LXP1, LXP15, Reflex, Alex, Lexiverb. Is this similar to the "dense" algorithm that Warp69 mentioned?

Blesser Hall: PCM96. I know this isn't the name, but this is to differentiate the algorithm from earlier Hall algorithms.

Surround Hall: 480L w/Surround Cart. Based on Random Hall.

Plate: 224

Small Plate: 224X/XL

Constant Density Plates: 224X/XL

Rich Plate: 224X/XL, probably every Lexicon that came afterwards

Room: PCM96
Earlier rooms used Hall-esque algorithms, or algorithms closer to the Chamber algorithm

Chamber: 224X/XL

Rich Chamber: 224X/XL
Were the later chambers closer to the Rich Chamber algorithm?

Ambience: 300, PCM91 (I might be missing some)

Inverse: PCM70, PCM91, probably others

Infinite: I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but it usually appears as a variant on the Chamber algorithm.

General changes over time:

Early modulation was chorusing (in the Concert Hall). Later modulation was something else.
Shape/Spread parameters introduced (or added to interface) in 480L, used in all later Lexicon units

Two more questions:

- Are the reverb algorithms in the PCM80 closer to the 224XL/PCM70 era, the 480L era, or some mixture of both? The Concert Hall description sounds like the PCM70, while other algorithms have Spin, Shape and Spread, much like the 480L and later units.

- Would the reverb algorithms in the PCM80 be close to some of the simpler algorithms in the PCM91 - I forget their name, but the ones that are designed to be run in parallel?

Thanks,

Sean Costello
Old 7th April 2009 | Show parent
  #119
Lives for gear
 
Casey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➑️
Here's a list of the algorithms described so far, as well as an attempt to match algorithms to Lexicon units.
Wow, that's some list. I think the main thing to keep in mind is that in most cases these algorithms varied more or less from machine to machine. Just a couple of comments:

Concert Hall: PCM91 with additions (different enough to be it's own alg), Was this in the 200 as well (yes)

Random Hall: PCM90/91 (Not in the same sense as 300/480 random hall)

"New" Hall: Is this similar to the "dense" algorithm that Warp69 mentioned? (No)

Surround Hall: 480L w/Surround Cart. Based on Random Hall. (Not really based on random hall, this is the "dense" algorithm mentioned by Warp69)



-Casey
Old 7th April 2009 | Show parent
  #120
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey ➑️
Random Hall: PCM90/91 (Not in the same sense as 300/480 random hall)
Different principle, or just simpler than the 300/480 Random Hall? Is the randomization type the same?

Quote:
Surround Hall: 480L w/Surround Cart. Based on Random Hall. (Not really based on random hall, this is the "dense" algorithm mentioned by Warp69)
Does this use Random Hall type randomization?

I really need to HEAR a good example of Random Hall one of these days - I keep looking for Lexicon bargains in the local Craigslist, but have only managed to find an LXP15. Are there any good sound files out there where I can hear Random Hall in action? Preferably with the settings turned up too high.

Thanks,

Sean Costello
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