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Lexicon reverbs: a brief bestiary
Old 7th September 2012 | Show parent
  #271
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Warp69's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds ➡️
The "Wander" parameter definitely makes a difference tweaking the 300. But it might not affect the ER, only the tail.
What happens if you dial down the tail by using 'LEV'? Rememer that Wander needs a non-zero Spin value to function.
Old 7th September 2012 | Show parent
  #272
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 ➡️
What happens if you dial down the tail by using 'LEV'? Rememer that Wander needs a non-zero Spin value to function.
Just tested it, the randomization (at least using the "Random Hall" algorithm) only affects the reverb, not the delays. The structure diagram makes this clear as well: The incoming signal ist first diffused, then gets fed into the "reverberator" module and the delay lines in parallel. Since the spin and wander parameter both reside inside the "reverberator" module the delays on the "outside" are unaffected. The signal resulting from the "reverberator" module as well as the two delay lines per channel then get summed into a low pass filter, that's it.
Old 7th September 2012 | Show parent
  #273
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Warp69's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds ➡️
Just tested it, the randomization (at least using the "Random Hall" algorithm) only affects the reverb, not the delays.
We were talking about the Random Ambience algorithm

If you turn down the reverb tail with the RLVL parameter you would only get the early reflections part.

I can see that the parameter range is different between 480L and 300L
Old 7th September 2012 | Show parent
  #274
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 ➡️
We were talking about the Random Ambience algorithm

If you turn down the reverb tail with the RLVL parameter you would only get the early reflections part.

I can see that the parameter range is different between 480L and 300L
OK, checked that one, too. Random Ambience is different, even with the reverb level all the way down (delays only) spin/wander affect the signal. The diagram says different and is obviously incorrect.
Old 7th September 2012 | Show parent
  #275
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds ➡️
OK, checked that one, too. Random Ambience is different, even with the reverb level all the way down (delays only) spin/wander affect the signal. The diagram says different and is obviously incorrect.
You can't use the diagram as such - the Random Ambience actually has three parts : DELAY (DRY) + ER + REV. This is not displayed in the manual where ER + REV is shown as one block.

When the Reverb Level is way down, you still get the sound of the ER part. As I can understand from your post - there're infact randomized delay lines in the ER part of the Random Ambience algorithm in the 300L, just like in the 480L.
Old 7th September 2012 | Show parent
  #276
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 ➡️
When the Reverb Level is way down, you still get the sound of the ER part. As I can understand from your post - there're infact randomized delay lines in the ER part of the Random Ambience algorithm in the 300L, just like in the 480L.
There have to be, since the randomization parameters audibly affect the signal even with reverb level all the way down.
Old 7th September 2012 | Show parent
  #277
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelironsteel ➡️
thanks, let me be more precise model-wise: how about the

LEXICON 224, 224X, 224XL, M300, 300L, 480L ?
224, 224X, and 224XL have the Constant Density Plates. The other algorithms all have density that increases with time, although this can be controlled by the DEFINITION parameter in some algorithms.

Quote:
QUANTEC QRS, QRS/XL, Yardstick 2402
Echo density increases with time. The Yardstick has a parameter (diffusion? I don't remember) that may allow the reverb to become a sparse constant density reverb.

Quote:
URSA MAJOR SST-282
Density increases with time, in a really weird and unstable way. The Lexicon and Quantec reverbs use allpass delays embedded within larger delay loops to increase the echo density, but the SST uses a whole bunch of time varying taps summed together for its feedback signal. This will increase the echo density over time, but the feedback gain is limited before things blow up. The time variation allows the feedback gain to be increased by about 3X, but this still results in a fairly short maximum decay time, compared to the Lexicon and Quantec units.
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #278
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Carnes ➡️
Do I have plans for additional algorithms? Yes. I can't say anything about them until we release them, but the DSP has the power to do many interesting things.
Please try and port over the "Random Ambiance" algorithm into the PCM96 Surround. It's the only one I really miss on that box.

Is it possible to add a "quality" control, some sort of quantize noise parameter to more accurately imitate the old units? The verbs on the 96 sound too clean sometimes. Dirt can be an effect in itself.

The "band pass delays" algorithm from the PCM-80 is another classic.

Just ideas...
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #279
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosted ➡️
Please try and port over the "Random Ambiance" algorithm into the PCM96 Surround. It's the only one I really miss on that box.

Is it possible to add a "quality" control, some sort of quantize noise parameter to more accurately imitate the old units? The verbs on the 96 sound too clean sometimes. Dirt can be an effect in itself.
Sorry I can't help you. I haven't been with Lexicon since early January. Any decisions about new stuff at Lex are out of my hands.

I've experimented with some dirty stuff (I didn't die--I'm just not at Lex) and found it to be pretty challenging. The real things that add the dirt are not always obvious and seem to rely on a somewhat 'compromised' data pathway from start to finish. Floating point just doesn't lend itself to that sort of stuff. Don't get me wrong--you can add schmutz, but it doesn't sound the same. I'm probably not going to spend any more time on that experiment for quite some time.
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #280
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➡️
224, 224X, and 224XL have the Constant Density Plates. The other algorithms all have density that increases with time, although this can be controlled by the DEFINITION parameter in some algorithms.
That's an interesting topic, but not really for the reasons we think. I'm sure Sean is more than a little aware of this, but even the non-constant-density reverbs hit a brick wall in terms of the number of reflections. The Nyquist theorem is in full force. At 44.1, you quite simply can't have more than 22K reflections in a second, no matter how many allpasses or how long the tail.

The group delay that we moan about (for good reasons--it is the cause of many reverbs sounding metallic) also brings along some real benefits. Even though the maximum density of the reverb is reached pretty quickly, the pseudo-reflections line up against one another in different patterns as the sound ages. Although the tail appears to have a pretty regular spectral signature--typically the highs die away faster--in a local sense the frequency response is much more irregular. It's not truly chaotic, but it has a certain chaotic sense.

In the same way that the frequency response is irregular in a moment-to-moment sense, the phase of various frequencies relative to one another is also changing rapidly (if they're going through a typical network of long allpasses). This is a very helpful feature in maintaining mono/stereo compatibility, and also is more natural-sounding as long as group delay issues are managed well.

So in a certain very real sense, all reverbs are constant density after a couple-hundred milliseconds or so.
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #281
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Carnes ➡️
I've experimented with some dirty stuff (I didn't die--I'm just not at Lex) and found it to be pretty challenging. The real things that add the dirt are not always obvious and seem to rely on a somewhat 'compromised' data pathway from start to finish.
My guess is that a lot of the dirt stems from some of the coefficient quantization issues that were described by Oppenheim & Schafer back in 1975. A fixed point filter will have noise and distortion. The 1st order filters used by the older algorithms tend to be cleaner than 2nd order filters, but a little bit of noise, times a few hundred passes through a delay feedback loop, can result in a lot of noise.

A possibility: This noise would definitely be different between output channels. I know that adding some bandpass filtered noise to the output channels, with decorrelated noise sources for each channel, can create a wider stereo image if used subtly. Maybe this coefficient quantization noise adds "depth" to the hardware reverbs. Or maybe not. Just thinking as I type here.

Quote:
Floating point just doesn't lend itself to that sort of stuff. Don't get me wrong--you can add schmutz, but it doesn't sound the same. I'm probably not going to spend any more time on that experiment for quite some time.
Program everything in fixed point MMX or SSE, and you could probably get the schmutz back. You would need to do a lot of bitwise operations to get the wordlengths and saturation headroom correctly. I've thought about doing this, then thought "nah."

I've programmed things on a fixed point DSP that is fairly close to the fixed point Lexicon hardware (the Spin Semiconductor FV-1), and I don't hear any particular "magic" versus the floating point that makes moving over to fixed point worthwhile. Maybe I need to listen to this with fresh ears.
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #282
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➡️
Program everything in fixed point MMX or SSE, and you could probably get the schmutz back. You would need to do a lot of bitwise operations to get the wordlengths and saturation headroom correctly. I've thought about doing this, then thought "nah."
That's basically it. There are some small issues in coefficient management like rounding vs truncation, but the main trick is to make sure you throw out lots of subtle detail. I've come to the same conclusion as you, partly for reasons of the P.I.T.A. factor and also personal taste. I've spent years trying to get that crap out of there, and I'm not keen to put it back. I am aware that there are people who like it, but I expect they'll always be happier with an old hardware unit anyway.

Many of these preferences are probably related to the particular musical styles that mixers like and many may be a pleasant association with their first successful mixes. I'd imagine there are generational differences as well. I certainly appreciate the usefulness of 'effect-y' reverbs--they can be quite musical--but I just don't feel the love for grindy coefficients and quantization error.

Having gotten that off my chest, I am aware that an awful lot of my work has ended up on 64K mp3 files. I appreciate the irony.
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #283
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henge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey ➡️
Sean, NS,


I am glad you brought this up because this classic page should be included in this thread;

SST282_History
-Casey
I loved this thread when it started and just reread the whole thing.
Very interesting to see what happened to the cast of characters since the thread started 3 years ago!
One burning question though. What's with the beards in that article?? Griesinger,Moore,Agnello,Blesser...
Casey why no beard? Sean I demand a pic of you with a beard or Vroom and the rest of your products a banished from my computer. Same to you Mr.Lind.
Mr Carnes, whatever your brewing up at Exponential better be done with a beard growing or I ain't interested.
Just kidding. It's been a strange day....
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #284
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 ➡️
You can't use the diagram as such - the Random Ambience actually has three parts : DELAY (DRY) + ER + REV. This is not displayed in the manual where ER + REV is shown as one block.

When the Reverb Level is way down, you still get the sound of the ER part. As I can understand from your post - there're infact randomized delay lines in the ER part of the Random Ambience algorithm in the 300L, just like in the 480L.
Just checked out the IK Multimedia CSR Room. Of course the Earlies are modulated here, even if the tail is set to zero! And it sounds just great.



It has not to be underestimated what you are getting with the CSR suite.
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #285
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by henge ➡️
I loved this thread when it started and just reread the whole thing.
Very interesting to see what happened to the cast of characters since the thread started 3 years ago!
One burning question though. What's with the beards in that article?? Griesinger,Moore,Agnello,Blesser...
Casey why no beard? Sean I demand a pic of you with a beard or Vroom and the rest of your products a banished from my computer. Same to you Mr.Lind.
Mr Carnes, whatever your brewing up at Exponential better be done with a beard growing or I ain't interested.
Just kidding. It's been a strange day....
https://valhalladsp.wordpress.com/20...-reverb-beard/

My beard has only gotten greyer since I wrote this. And my wife's views on beards haven't changed. I should get a fake ZZ Top beard to put on while I am coding.

When I met Michael Carnes at an AES convention many years ago, he was clean shaven.
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #286
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henge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➡️
https://valhalladsp.wordpress.com/20...-reverb-beard/

My beard has only gotten greyer since I wrote this. And my wife's views on beards haven't changed. I should get a fake ZZ Top beard to put on while I am coding.

When I met Michael Carnes at an AES convention many years ago, he was clean shaven.
" Beard Voltron".
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #287
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➡️
When I met Michael Carnes at an AES convention many years ago, he was clean shaven.
Guys, I don't really need to look any older...
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #288
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
Does Lexicon have a future? Is the PCM92 the last hardware product under production? Do they have future plans in hardware reverbs?
I'm sorry Jim, I don't have any contact with the company and I have no idea what plans are over there. It wouldn't really be fair for me to speculate on a public forum. Anything I said would come across as either privileged information or sour grapes. Perhaps the best thing for you to do would be to stay in touch with current owners and see how their support experiences go.
Old 8th September 2012
  #289
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waveterm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Sean,

what´s up with this :

"Nowadays, I use the term “Reverb Beard” (or “Reverbskägg” in Swedish) "

Taken from your blog. You swedish ?

WT
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #290
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by waveterm ➡️
Hey Sean,

what´s up with this :

"Nowadays, I use the term “Reverb Beard” (or “Reverbskägg” in Swedish) "

Taken from your blog. You swedish ?

WT
I'm from the US (Seattle area, to be precise). IIRC, when I was first writing about "reverb beards," some Swedish Twitter follower provided the "Reverbskägg" translation, so I put it in the blog post.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #291
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🎧 5 years
Reverbskägg? That doesn't sound very attractive.

Old 9th September 2012
  #292
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waveterm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Ok !

WT
Old 9th September 2012
  #293
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
This has been a fascinating read, and I recognise many of the details.

I'd love a summary of the technological advances in the Lexicon line, I guess bit-width, form of realization etc. changed. Micro-steps per sample etc. I assume that the early stuff was TTL or AMD bit-sliced. I have seen the dedicated chips for the PCM70 and 480L which supported the 16/"pseudo-18" bit. Next integration level was the Lexichip, which I think supported 20 bit, but I only saw the 16-bit realizations in the LXP-1/5, unsure about the LXP-15 and I think I saw it when I lifted the hood of the 300L.

We have seen some of the side-effects of these advances glean through the comments of the giants, but it would be nice to see the architectural differences and how they affected the sound.

As it happens, I have been designing a DSP with toolchain, but not for direct audio use, but it times audio and video production throughout the world.

Cheers,
Magnus
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #294
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
That's a bit too late for me. I need to know what the heck is going on inside that company, are they solvent? I can't afford to invest in expensive hardware not knowing if the company is going to fix it. Like Scotty, fool me twice, shame on me.

My decision is not based on the product, but the condition of the company that makes it. Yes, that is new for me too. A sad commentary on the current pro audio "industry". The products are healthy, the companies are not.
Well, the company that owns Lexicon is on the NYSE, so you can look at the stock ticker and see for yourself how they are performing:

NYSE, New York Stock Exchange > Listings > Listings Directory

Of course, the importance of Lexicon within the grand scheme of Harman can't be determined by the stock ticker.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #295
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello ➡️
Well, the company that owns Lexicon is on the NYSE, so you can look at the stock ticker and see for yourself how they are performing:

NYSE, New York Stock Exchange > Listings > Listings Directory

Of course, the importance of Lexicon within the grand scheme of Harman can't be determined by the stock ticker.
Totally OT, but the shareholder value thing is what made so many audio companies suck in the first place IMO. Harman is a "good" example for it...
Old 6th November 2013 | Show parent
  #296
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Just to add to history a bit…

Chris Noyes worked for Lexicon in the 80's and designed some of the original 224 algorithms. I believe he was responsible for the Resonance program. After leaving Lexicon he was at Sony for a while and taught a class at Berklee as well. Last time I saw him was at an AES convention in the early 90's. Anyone know what he's doing now?

My first piece of digital gear was a Lexicon Prime Time, then the Model 200 which was my main reverb for 10 years.

The Lexicon 200 was very expensive at the time because it was designed to be upgraded in many ways. If you look at the box you can see many slots, cutouts and space for future upgrades that never happened. They only came out with one real upgrade and then pretty much abandoned it after that.

When I worked at Pro Audio Design, I sold the 200 to Al Di Meola because he needed it for a tour. One of the many things (Lexicon Prime Time, Vox Continental, Trident Console, etc.) that I'll always regret selling!

Good info here - Lexicon Model 200 digital reverb
Old 10th February 2014
  #297
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Hi, this is a great thread! I'm learning a lot from this so thank you to everyone. Anyway I am not super au fait with the various Lexicon models but am thinking about buying one. There's a 480L version 3 nearby that I can check out, test etc and maybe buy. I think the main base I would be trying to cover in getting this would be the "classic" 80s Lexicon sound, from what I understand a 300L might be what I want but if I can get a 480L and get the classic cartridge to cover that base, the extra algorithms on the 480 would be great to have too (and maybe I might even use them as much or more in the long run?) - So my question is: were the classic algorithms only available as an extra cartridge on the 480 version 3? Did any of them come standard? I've seen that classic cartridge available on ebay but it was for 480L version 4.1 - was it also available for version 3? If available is it super rare? Also, from reading the posts here (have only read the first 6 pages so far to be honest) I get the impression that the classic algorithms from the 200 and 300 sound a bit different when they're on the 480? But it's not much of a difference? Any thoughts on that?
Anyway, essentially I want to know if I get a 480L version 3 will I be able to do the classic presets of the 300 and 200 (224?) and will they sound very close on the 480L v3 ??
Any thoughts or advice greatly appreciated - thanks!
Old 17th February 2014 | Show parent
  #298
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusD ➡️
I'd love a summary of the technological advances in the Lexicon line, I guess bit-width, form of realization etc. changed. Micro-steps per sample etc. I assume that the early stuff was TTL or AMD bit-sliced. I have seen the dedicated chips for the PCM70 and 480L which supported the 16/"pseudo-18" bit. Next integration level was the Lexichip, which I think supported 20 bit, but I only saw the 16-bit realizations in the LXP-1/5, unsure about the LXP-15 and I think I saw it when I lifted the hood of the 300L.
224 and 224X were similar, 16 bit ARU but with a 6-bit multiply coefficiency per cycle. It did this by processing two coefficient bits per cycle. The A-D and D-A was 12-bit with gain staging to get the equivalent of 14 bits. The 224 had 16k of RAM; the 224X could be set up with either 32k or 64k. The microcode length was 100 instructions with 8 clock ticks per instruction. The ARU was based on fast adders (74S283). I have never seen a Lexicon using the bit-slice product families although Eventide and EMT have used the AM2901 quite a bit.

The 200 shared the same A-D converter structure, a 3-bit or 4-bit multiplier(depending on the timing of the following cycle). I believe this unit can accept 128 microinstructions per sample at 3 clock ticks per instruction. This ARU was based on the 74F181 ALU commonly used in 1970's era minicomputers. This design was moved into the first 16-bit ARU ASIC used in the PCM60.

The PCM70 shares the same basic ARU design as the 200 except it was implemented in an ASIC and at least my PCM70 has the 18-bit version of the ARU. The 74F181 ALU (or ASIC equivalent) are replaced with a simple adder and a couple of 18-bit multiplexors. Cycle timing (3 states) and program length are pretty much the same but the sample rate is raised a bit. The A-D and D-A are upgraded to 16-bit.

Next, the 480L... here there is a 4-core processor. The ARU is the same as the PCM70 but the sample rate is raised to accommodate digital I/O and the multiplier precision is raised to 4-bit instead of 3-bit - one extra clock cycle is used. As such, program length is limited to 80 instructions because of timing constraints of the ARU but there are four cores or 320 instructions per sample. Shuffling data between the cores does add some overhead, though.

The Lexichip-1 and -2 look to be a faster version of one section of the 480L HSP board - one ARU, CMU, MMU, and WCS. The ARU seems to be expanded to 20 bits. At least the Lexichip-2 supports both a parallel A-D/D-A converter as well as a serial interface. Multiplier precision is the same but clock speed is faster - a full 128 program steps are available.

The 300 used two Lexichips, 16-bit A/D and D/A.

PCM91 also used two Lexichips but 20-bit A/D and D/A.

PCM80 uses one Lexichip and one DSP56002 for the effects side of things.

Most of the newer boxes use the Lexichip-3 and I have not studied this part at all.
Old 17th February 2014 | Show parent
  #299
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta Bliss ➡️
Hi, this is a great thread! I'm learning a lot from this so thank you to everyone. Anyway I am not super au fait with the various Lexicon models but am thinking about buying one. There's a 480L version 3 nearby that I can check out, test etc and maybe buy. I think the main base I would be trying to cover in getting this would be the "classic" 80s Lexicon sound, from what I understand a 300L might be what I want but if I can get a 480L and get the classic cartridge to cover that base, the extra algorithms on the 480 would be great to have too (and maybe I might even use them as much or more in the long run?) - So my question is: were the classic algorithms only available as an extra cartridge on the 480 version 3? Did any of them come standard? I've seen that classic cartridge available on ebay but it was for 480L version 4.1 - was it also available for version 3? If available is it super rare? Also, from reading the posts here (have only read the first 6 pages so far to be honest) I get the impression that the classic algorithms from the 200 and 300 sound a bit different when they're on the 480? But it's not much of a difference? Any thoughts on that?
Anyway, essentially I want to know if I get a 480L version 3 will I be able to do the classic presets of the 300 and 200 (224?) and will they sound very close on the 480L v3 ??
Any thoughts or advice greatly appreciated - thanks!
Hi there!
I would search GS Threads and one in particular named "Is it still worth buying a 480L in 2013? I'd also Google the subject and highlight the GS paged Google results as these results bring up much older threads (Pages of them) as opposed to the often more recent when doing a GS search as quite often doing a "GearSlutz Search" brings up newer threads, where Google will bring up the really dusty and mouldy threads when all units were in full usage thus... possibly expanding thoughts on the units uses & usage that may be more relevant to your needs if looking to buy!

Yes, your going to need 4.x.1 Software for Classic Cart Software on the 480L. That can give you the Lexicon sound from PCM-42, PrimeTime, 22X-XL, 300 & PCM-80 Sounds as well as 480L Algorithms etc. Basically making the 480L a huge unit, add Surround/HD and PrimeTime 3 Cart and you've got a huge FX/Reverb unit. Benden Tech Fixes Lexicon in the UK! Maybe chat to them? I'd say you might be better off with a PCM81 and 300L For ITB/OTB use with Mod Con's etc such as AES, Analog, SMPTE, Midi etc would bode much better for you though without the performance or potential Door Stop issues that buying a 480L can bring etc. Just a thought!

Regards
TheLastByte
Old 17th February 2014 | Show parent
  #300
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Casey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dale116dot7 ➡️
Shuffling data between the cores does add some overhead, though.
Actually no overhead is incurred when moving a sample between cores.

All of the standard 480 algs run on 2 cores. Only the HD alg on the optional surround cart used 4 cores.

The 480 also uses an 8 bit microprocessor which re-writes the 80 step microcode in the ARUs to provide the dynamic reverb modulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dale116dot7 ➡️
Most of the newer boxes use the Lexichip-3 and I have not studied this part at all.
The Lexichip 3 provides 256 steps. This same ARU is used in the MPX series and in the 960. The 960 of course had 4 of them to support 4 stereo machines. The 960 also added two 8 bit microprocessors to work with the 4 ARUs for dynamic microcode changes.



-Casey
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