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The Lost Art of Engineering...
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #61
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Hey guys,
Quite new and have been lurking in the background for a bit now. I'm in my first year of professional (ie I get paid a little cash) live and studio work. I live in a part of Scotland where the opportunity for studio work is very hard to come by. I Finished an audio course and got an option to go work in a studio. I do love the opportunity but, going into the job, I thought this would be a case of mentoring and learning some good inside tips from someone who has worked in the business for a good number of years. It's worked out that I bring my own work in and have to get to grips with the studio on my own. It is a fantastic opportunity but I always feel a little strange about charging bands for some of my learning experience. I feel confident enough that I can give bands a good recording but I'm also still learning a lot especially with the outboard gear and different mic techniques/selections for different applications.
Forums like this are a great help to hear some opinions and expertise that I feel are really necessary. There is a huge amount to be said for going out there and finding out how things work for yourself but having access to information (which can be found on sites like this) is also invaluable.
Thanks for the insights! Keep em coming.
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #62
Lives for gear
 
nukmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston ➡️
I can totally relate. We used to have water cooler chats at some of the big 2, 3, 4 room facilities here in town. It was always fun. Now, if you want to make that happen, you have to MAKE it happen, by dropping by some studio when you see an engineer friend's car parked out front.
funny thing...whenever I pass studios I work/worked out off, I'm always looking(unconsciously) to see who's car is parked outside. old habits I guess.
Old 28th February 2009 | Show parent
  #63
Lives for gear
 
Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yesterday I went back to Capitol to do a small string section. Special thanks to Paula Salvatore for squeezing us in at the last minute. Because of the great time I had with the Superbowl session, I requested Charlie again.

This time we were in Studio A and (as usual) everything went like clock work. 6 violins recorded with (5) U67's. In and out in under 2 hours.

Life is good when you're in a great studio, with great people.
And I just want to encourage all of us who sit in our home/project studios (most of the time) to get out every once in a while and go to a commercial room.

You can usually gain wonderful insight from other engineers. For instance Charlie and I were talking about his sessions for the pre-records of the Oscars. Believe me, that could be a thread just on it's own.

It's so refreshing... even after doing this for 20 plus years I still learn something new with every session I do in a big studio.
Old 28th February 2009 | Show parent
  #64
Lives for gear
 
soundbarnfool's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah. I think there are lots of people who sadly think that technology can not just enhance human creativity, but actually replace it. As in autotune. And vocal comps from hell. I got to watch Doug Sax in action for a week back in the early 90's at The Mastering Lab. That was engineering. And love of music.

Inglewood SoundBarn
Old 28th February 2009
  #65
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➡️
Today I was down at Capitol Studios B, recording a choir for the Super Bowl.
16 singers, 6 mics... and one absolutely fantastic sounding studio.

Fortunately the studio manager, Paula Salvatore, was able to slide us in at the last minute.
The engineer who was assisting me was Charlie Paakkari, a great engineer in his own right.
The 8068 Neve in Studio B (signed by Rupert himself) is in pristine condition.
Charlie had two reverbs set up for me. An EMT 250 (send 1) and the live chamber underneath Capitol (send 2) .
I immediately went to the chamber for the choir. After turning up the send a little I looked over at Charlie and said, I love plugins, but you just can't beat the sound of this chamber.
Smooth, Warm and Round can only give you glimpses of the colors of this verb.

Al Schmitt was across the hall mixing in Studio C. He dropped by and we talked for a bit. I hadn't seen him in at least 2 years, but he told me what he was working on and had a moment to catch up.

Recording down at Capitol today started me thinking about the lost art of engineering. It's more than just buying the coolest and hottest boxes. It's knowing the sonic differences between a $100 mic and a $10,000 mic. Each mic can have its place in both the pro and project studios.

Let me say this unequivocally: there is definitely enough room for both pro and project studios.
The purpose of this post is to encourage the art of engineering.
For those of us who spend most of our days in our personal studios, I encourage you to take at least 1 day a month and track at a pro/commercial studio.
Spend a day recording a real piano in a great room. Spend a half a day cutting vocals with a small group in a great room.
Next time you track your project at 24 bit/96k dump those tracks over to an analog tape machine and then bring them back on a new playlist. You can then go back and forth between your analog and digital sound. Drums (analog), Bass (digital), guitars (analog), you get the idea.
I'm sure many of you are doing this already. All I want to do is to start a dialog and bring this more to the forefront.

It's amazing how I miss the camaraderie of having great engineers in the next studio. Simply hanging out in the hallways and discussing the art of engineering.
And yes, at times I do feel like it's becoming a "lost art". I know there will be people who vehemently disagree, that's fine, but have something constructive, not destructive to add to the conversation.

Let's face it. Analog is not going away. Digital is not going away. IMO the future is some kind of hybrid between these two worlds. The same thing can be said about pro and project studios.

This thing we all love to do can get better and better, it is after all an art we all love to practice.
Not lost, just evolving.
Old 28th February 2009 | Show parent
  #66
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Tony and Lynn are giving us all some very valuable advice...I don't understand why the "I'm not privileged enough to work in a great studio" attitude exists...booking a bed track session once in a while in a real studio is not such a stretch and sometimes can be cheaper...just takes a little bit of planning.

Nick
Old 1st March 2009 | Show parent
  #67
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor ➡️
There are those who suspect that the classic art of engineering is on the wane.
In my view, it is the classification of engineering (objective) as 'art' (subjective) that has lead to the current state of the industry.

Andy
Old 1st March 2009 | Show parent
  #68
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
Not lost, just evolving.
Not all progression (not progress) is evolution.
There is a word called degradation. It happens when things change in an undesigned manner such as market glut (which we have) and when it is glut for a protracted period of time (which we been through), the market, art, technical side and plan are out the window. If a new plan is not designed then what an industry does is called a "default future".

The default future for all businesses (the future that will happen if business is not managed properly) is called failure, or, going out of business, total loss of market.

I didn't make this up, this comes from one of the most effective business coaches in the world.

Any practice that is not designed to propel a market long term, or, survive as a verity can not be relied upon to do so. Eggs in the wrong basket.
Businesses do what they are well designed to do as long - as you follow the plan. When you stop following it, you're off the plan and can not be relied upon to produce the results the plan was designed to produce. Your results can not be quantified as results of "a plan" and judging success or failure as an industry becomes impossible.
Once you have successfully subverted being able to know whether you are succeeding or failing as an industry as a whole, believing your own hype and fooling yourself will be the last solid thing the few that still make money in the old way have as the market disappears completely.
What occurs for the exbuyers of the product is that the product is no longer worth buying because it is not better than what they can get fo free at any time they want.

Music Video DVD's vs Live Concert
YouTube Concerts vs DVD's
MP3's vs CD's

You can easily see how this technology was not released in a cohesive manner designed to protect the industry from the artists and their immediate teams to the production staff through distributors.
The quality of what is trying to be sold is not improving, it has taken a nosedive and has no plan to upgrade to any superior or sellable format and delivery system, just speculation about youtube.
It's not just a non-design, it's non-workable and nonsense as a plan for the future of the industry mainly because it was designed by the people who are still in the stage of fooling themselves.

OK, before anyone flames me,

What is the current business model of the industry?

Don't try to give some overcomplicated explanation that no one could understand, if you can't condense it then you don't know what it is.

Don't bother stating that it is too complex to state because if it is too complicated, it is not a workable plan.
Plans that work are communicable to the lowest man on the chain, they have to be if a busines is to really perform.

That's the name of the game, "performance", and NOTHING else matters.

Last edited by memphisindie; 1st March 2009 at 04:17 PM.. Reason: I wasn't a big enough jerk.
Old 1st March 2009 | Show parent
  #69
Lives for gear
 
thermos's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➡️
I agree 100% with this. GS is great, but compared to getting out and actually interacting with people... it's like dating someone long distance and never meeting them or interacting with them on a personal level.
Yep. I was going to say, the difference between being a player and a home studio owner/engineer is at least as a player you get to get out and hang with other players and learn from them. So you are always interacting with other people working on the same craft as you. A modern day engineer doesn't have that luxury. I've learned the most about engineering when working with someone else and getting to ask questions about how they work. Its all too rare, and my progression as an engineer definitely doesn't progress nearly as fast as it could if I were working with other engineers.

Also, to play devil's advocate, its good to hear Capitol is working ok again. I did a record there last year, and everything was broken. They brought out 3 67s, 2 of which were broken. And one of the amps in the control room (I think it was B) was out so they had to gerry rig some other amp. The console was acting funny, channels were bad, etc. I was wondering at the time how places like this could even afford maintenance. I did hear its been better since then though.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #70
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie ➡️
Not all progression (not progress) is evolution.
There is a word called degradation. It happens when things change in an undesigned manner such as market glut (which we have) and when it is glut for a protracted period of time (which we been through), the market, art, technical side and plan are out the window. If a new plan is not designed then what an industry does is called a "default future".

The default future for all businesses (the future that will happen if business is not managed properly) is called failure, or, going out of business, total loss of market.

I didn't make this up, this comes from one of the most effective business coaches in the world.

Any practice that is not designed to propel a market long term, or, survive as a verity can not be relied upon to do so. Eggs in the wrong basket.
Businesses do what they are well designed to do as long - as you follow the plan. When you stop following it, you're off the plan and can not be relied upon to produce the results the plan was designed to produce. Your results can not be quantified as results of "a plan" and judging success or failure as an industry becomes impossible.
Once you have successfully subverted being able to know whether you are succeeding or failing as an industry as a whole, believing your own hype and fooling yourself will be the last solid thing the few that still make money in the old way have as the market disappears completely.
What occurs for the exbuyers of the product is that the product is no longer worth buying because it is not better than what they can get fo free at any time they want.

Music Video DVD's vs Live Concert
YouTube Concerts vs DVD's
MP3's vs CD's

You can easily see how this technology was not released in a cohesive manner designed to protect the industry from the artists and their immediate teams to the production staff through distributors.
The quality of what is trying to be sold is not improving, it has taken a nosedive and has no plan to upgrade to any superior or sellable format and delivery system, just speculation about youtube.
It's not just a non-design, it's non-workable and nonsense as a plan for the future of the industry mainly because it was designed by the people who are still in the stage of fooling themselves.

OK, before anyone flames me,

What is the current business model of the industry?

Don't try to give some overcomplicated explanation that no one could understand, if you can't condense it then you don't know what it is.

Don't bother stating that it is too complex to state because if it is too complicated, it is not a workable plan.
Plans that work are communicable to the lowest man on the chain, they have to be if a busines is to really perform.

That's the name of the game, "performance", and NOTHING else matters.
What does any of this have to do with the art of engineering? The music industry's inablility to manage their business, failure to protect their intellectual property and short sightedness in the face of record profits reselling catalogs for the 3rd time 20 years ago has nothing to with the art of audio engineering which is what we are talking about.

The music industry is FUBAR'd, big time. Its rooted in their own greed and short sightedness and it will die in the not too distant future. Musicians made music long before there was a record industry and will continue to do so. Studios to record that music will still exist therefore the need for audio engineering will still be there. They only this that won't be are the morally bankrupt and corrupt "record industry" types. Good riddence.

So we are still left with the question about audio engineering. Its evolving. Not always in the direction we would like but that has always been the case. There is nothing new here.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #71
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
"Engineering," fur is I kin tell, is all about instincts. Every adjustment made to an EQ, compressor, shifting mic placement ever so slightly, every damn thing you do is designed to satisfy a little voice inside that says "That's not quite it. Keep going."

So, haste and sloppiness and not really paying attention or caring, those are the demons that ruin recordings and render them not worth listening to.

The great flaw I see in my little slice of the world is "engineers" who have an abstract faith in expensive gear and by-the-book techniques but they don't dive into the music and try to wrench the maximum emotion out of it. And then not realizing that the results they've gotten are boring or mundane or even in some cases ghastly and horrendous.

Instincts are vague, and fluid, and not quantifiable, there's no 12 step program to hone your instincts, you just need to plant them in the garden and hope they grow. The "Art of Engineering" is this, specifically-- letting those subtle inner cues be your boss.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #72
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
What does any of this have to do with the art of engineering? The music industry's inablility to manage their business, failure to protect their intellectual property and short sightedness in the face of record profits reselling catalogs for the 3rd time 20 years ago has nothing to with the art of audio engineering which is what we are talking about.

The music industry is FUBAR'd, big time. Its rooted in their own greed and short sightedness and it will die in the not too distant future. Musicians made music long before there was a record industry and will continue to do so. Studios to record that music will still exist therefore the need for audio engineering will still be there. They only this that won't be are the morally bankrupt and corrupt "record industry" types. Good riddence.

So we are still left with the question about audio engineering. Its evolving. Not always in the direction we would like but that has always been the case. There is nothing new here.
Although I agree with your ethos, as far as good riddance to the A holes,

It's an example, and one to heed.

Engineering is not evolving right now, it's eroding.
When more and more "engineers" don't know how to do basic things, it's called erosion. Conformity is also a form of erosion. We have both going on.
What sets a hack apart from a pro when the pro can't set up a mic properly?
Nothing.
What superior service does a pro have over a guy with a computer? If you don't actually have anything, then you don't have a service and the market will dry up.
That's the default future, in every line of work.

Businesses do what they are well designed to do as long - as you follow the plan. When you stop following it, you're off the plan and can not be relied upon to produce the results the plan was designed to produce. Your results can not be quantified as results of "a plan" and judging success or failure as an industry becomes impossible.
Once you have successfully subverted being able to know whether you are succeeding or failing as an industry as a whole, believing your own hype and fooling yourself will be the last solid thing the few that still make money in the old way have as the market disappears completely.
What occurs for the exbuyers of the product is that the product is no longer worth buying because it is not better than what they can get fo free at any time they want.

So I'll post it again:

What is the current business model of the industry?

Don't try to give some overcomplicated explanation that no one could understand, if you can't condense it then you don't know what it is.

Don't bother stating that it is too complex to state because if it is too complicated, it is not a workable plan.
Plans that work are communicable to the lowest man on the chain, they have to be if a busines is to really perform.

That's the name of the game, "performance", and NOTHING else matters.

Now before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, it's the guys who have the computers that need to read this more than the old pros, if we could somehow design how we will run this business, we can all have a chance to succeed in it, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie ➡️
Although I agree with your ethos, as far as good riddance to the A holes,

It's an example, and one to heed.

Engineering is not evolving right now, it's eroding.
When more and more "engineers" don't know how to do basic things, it's called erosion. Conformity is also a form of erosion. We have both going on.
What sets a hack apart from a pro when the pro can't set up a mic properly?
Nothing.
What superior service does a pro have over a guy with a computer? If you don't actually have anything, then you don't have a service and the market will dry up.
That's the default future, in every line of work.

Businesses do what they are well designed to do as long - as you follow the plan. When you stop following it, you're off the plan and can not be relied upon to produce the results the plan was designed to produce. Your results can not be quantified as results of "a plan" and judging success or failure as an industry becomes impossible.
Once you have successfully subverted being able to know whether you are succeeding or failing as an industry as a whole, believing your own hype and fooling yourself will be the last solid thing the few that still make money in the old way have as the market disappears completely.
What occurs for the exbuyers of the product is that the product is no longer worth buying because it is not better than what they can get fo free at any time they want.

So I'll post it again:

What is the current business model of the industry?

Don't try to give some overcomplicated explanation that no one could understand, if you can't condense it then you don't know what it is.


Don't bother stating that it is too complex to state because if it is too complicated, it is not a workable plan.
Plans that work are communicable to the lowest man on the chain, they have to be if a busines is to really perform.

That's the name of the game, "performance", and NOTHING else matters.

Now before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, it's the guys who have the computers that need to read this more than the old pros, if we could somehow design how we will run this business, we can all have a chance to succeed in it, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Says the guy writing a small book.......geez. Practice what you preach.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #74
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
Says the guy writing a small book.......geez. Practice what you preach.
Please elaborate.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #75
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie ➡️
Please elaborate.

Seriously? Your post takes a whole page and you tell people if they can't explain it simply they are wrong? You don't see the hypocrosy in that?
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #76
Lives for gear
 
Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Gentlemen! Can we get back to subject at hand and stop the snipping.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #77
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
The Art

The art of engineering.....Give 5 engineers a mic and a kick drum(or any instrument)...5 different results,from subtle to obvious. Line up a few Dbx compressors,same signal thru all,subtle but unique differences from each.Pull up the plug in...exact same results/sound.Too many people settling for the "Presets" and not seeking/listening/pushing.Sorry,not trying to do the "analog/digital" nonsense again (It's not the equipment,it's the operator).But,with samples and digital plugins where each model used is virtually the same every time it's used. A compressor is not just a compressor for example.Back in the day each piece had a personality.From manufacturer to manufacturer,piece to piece. LA-2A for the tubes,1176 for the "muscle",Pultec for the "glow",Tube-Tech for just a littl more "sharpness,API 550,even without EQ'ing,just putting signal thru it,in circuit,"beefed" up the signal. Sorry,been doing this too long...just love awesome sounding music.Mario.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #78
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
Seriously? Your post takes a whole page and you tell people if they can't explain it simply they are wrong? You don't see the hypocrosy in that?
That's a bit of an exaggeration.
Stop the attack.

You must have a very small screen.

Never said they were wrong, just that if you don't know it, you don't know it. If you don't know it, how can you follow it or do it again?
Simple answer, you can't.

What has it got to do with engineering?

CAUSALITY.

If you can't explain it, you Don't know how to do it. If you don't know how to do it, you'll settle for anything that comes down the pike, like evolving the business to use "Microsoft Songwriter, and Microsoft Auto Engineer and AutoMasterer" Then No one but the label schlubs get paid and for what? Pushing a button.

I live in a city that continually lowered the bar and settled or the lower bar's results till there was no lower to go. It ends in catastrophe.

Last edited by memphisindie; 2nd March 2009 at 10:02 PM.. Reason: spelling is not creepy enough.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #79
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie ➡️
That's a bit of an exaggeration.
Stop the attack.

You must have a very small screen.

Never said they were wrong, just that if you don't know it, you don't know it. If you don't know it, how can you follow it or do it again?
Simple answer, you can't.

What has it got to do with engineering?

CAUSALITY.

If you can't explain it, you Don't know how to do it. If you don't know how to do it, you'll settle for anything that comes down the pike, like evolving the business to use "Microsoft Songwriter, and Microsoft Auto Engineer and AutoMasterer" Then Non one but the label schlubs get paid and for what? Pushing a button.

I live in a city that continually lowered the bar and settled or the lower bar's results till there was no lower to go. It ends in catastrophe.

If you think that's an attack you need to get off the net NOW. As for the rest whatever. If you get off pontificating like you are some expert that.s your business. On this end you are an anonymous blowhard talking down to people like you think you know more than the rest of us.

Just because you have 1000's of new bedroom hacks does not make the real pros fewer or less talented.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #80
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
If you think that's an attack you need to get off the net NOW. As for the rest whatever. If you get off pontificating like you are some expert that.s your business. On this end you are an anonymous blowhard talking down to people like you think you know more than the rest of us.

Just because you have 1000's of new bedroom hacks does not make the real pros fewer or less talented.
Don't be one of those guys who adds stuff in his mind to what people say and then go attacking people base on what he adds instead of the actual content.

I don't assume I know more than anyone, everyone knows what I posted and sometimes people need reminding so they can accurately refocus. I know I do.
I am not anonymous BTW.
I wouldn't say there are less or less talented pros, it's not what I said either.
What I am saying is that even the pros will suffer all the way to the top if there isn't a design that takes into account what's right and what's wrong with what's going on in the market today. Without big labels to pay the bills for big facilities, the price of stuff will go way down and the big old pros will close up shop. Got nothing to do with talent.

Last edited by memphisindie; 2nd March 2009 at 10:03 PM.. Reason: added gating and reverb.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #81
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by memphisindie ➡️
Don't be one of those guys who adds stuff in his mind to what people say and then go attacking people base on what he adds instead of the actual content.

I don't assume I know more than anyone, everyone knows what I posted and sometimes people need reminding so they can accurately refocus. I know I do.
I am not anonymous BTW.
I wouldn't say there are less or less talented pros, it's not what I said either.
What I am saying is that even the pros will suffer all the way to the top if there isn't a design that takes into account what's right and what's wrong with what's going on in the market today. Without big labels to pay the bills for big facilities, the price of stuff will go way down and the big old pros will close up shop. Got nothing to do with talent.
I think you are more anonymous than you know. I certainly don't you although that doesn't mean anything to anyone else.

Regardless, I am done with you.
Old 2nd March 2009 | Show parent
  #82
Lives for gear
 
memphisindie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
I think you are more anonymous than you know. I certainly don't you although that doesn't mean anything to anyone else.

Regardless, I am done with you.
Nice trumpet. Blowhard. Right.
You're funny.
I'm sure I am as anonymous as I should be for what I do.
I'll give you that the post was long for the "meat" of it which was the questions.

But does ANYONE have the answers to them, at all?

What does it have to do with the TOPIC: "The Lost Art of Engineering"?
When the business that supports the art is in the hamper, most of the art it supports is going with it too.

You go to a pro for a superior product and managed interactions, if you don't get them, regardless whether the pro is a trained pro or a hack selling himself as a pro, you don't get the benefit of the art. The industry suffers as a byproduct, if the glut of that type of business is big enough and protracted enough, it can sink an entire industry.
Causality, like it or lump it, doesn't make anyone bad or good, it just is what it is.

Last edited by memphisindie; 2nd March 2009 at 09:58 PM.. Reason: Because I'm anonymous and that means that no one will see me do it!!
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