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The Lost Art of Engineering...
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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superburtm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan ➡️
I think forums like Gearslutz have become our "studio hallway" so to speak. I think the communication and interaction is still there, it just takes places in other forms. If anything, the internet has made the dissemination of knowledge about the craft a more free-flowing thing.

I think the idea of physically being around your peers to watch and learn is important and still happens for many of us, even if it's not taking place in an expensive classic studio.

Brad
AGREED...I see alot of things going this way...for instance...going to college online as opposed to sharing the room with a Professor and other students..it's virtual everything these days....can't wait to get a virtual girlfriend
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #32
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nukmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan ➡️
I think forums like Gearslutz have become our "studio hallway" so to speak. I think the communication and interaction is still there, it just takes places in other forms. If anything, the internet has made the dissemination of knowledge about the craft a more free-flowing thing.

I think the idea of physically being around your peers to watch and learn is important and still happens for many of us, even if it's not taking place in an expensive classic studio.

Brad
Brad
yes, true in a sense. But the question is, does it have the same affect? I would think not. I also think this type of interaction(online) adds a bit of confusion to the mix. One could describe the sound of a microphone(or whatever) to you all day on the internet, but it will never compare to actually being in a studio(commercial or project) to touch it, hear it, and compare it with others live and in person. Don't even mention the endless number of comments and opinions that get taken the wrong way or having to weed through all the bull**** and BULL****TERS online. If you were physically taking to someone, those type of confusions could be easily avoid.

heh
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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nukmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm ➡️
....can't wait to get a virtual girlfriend
wait no longer...heh

Virtually Date Ariane see how smooth you are, how far you can get.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #34
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic ➡️
Brad
yes, true in a sense. But the question is, does it have the same affect? I would think not. I also think this type of interaction(online) adds a bit of confusion to the mix. One could describe the sound of a microphone(or whatever) to you all day on the internet, but it will never compare to actually being in a studio(commercial or project) to touch it, hear it, and compare it with others live and in person. Don't even mention the endless number of comments and opinions that get taken the wrong way or having to weed through all the bull**** and BULL****TERS online. If you were physically taking to someone, those type of confusions could be easily avoid.

heh
I agree 100% with this. GS is great, but compared to getting out and actually interacting with people... it's like dating someone long distance and never meeting them or interacting with them on a personal level.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #35
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic ➡️
Don't even mention the endless number of comments and opinions that get taken the wrong way or having to weed through all the BS and BS'ers online. If you were physically taking to someone, those type of confusions could be easily avoid.
If you think the BS'ers are only online, you haven't been in the business long enough. Get out and around. You'll find that it's not JUST an internet phenomenon.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #36
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bcgood's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Great thread Tony. I agree 100% nothing compares to a real person, a real commercial recording studio like Capital. The Capital chambers are way beyond any convolution plug in. Nothing sonically compares to high end tape. Nothing compares to talking and learning from experienced, knowledgeable senior engineers in person.

Tony, will we hear your engineering work this Sunday? Please provide some more details about what you recorded today and how it will be used. Is there a way to hear some of it now?



Capitol Studios & Mastering
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #37
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan ➡️
I think forums like Gearslutz have become our "studio hallway" so to speak. I think the communication and interaction is still there, it just takes places in other forms. If anything, the internet has made the dissemination of knowledge about the craft a more free-flowing thing.

I think the idea of physically being around your peers to watch and learn is important and still happens for many of us, even if it's not taking place in an expensive classic studio.

Brad
Yes, but it's not the same as walking in to the control room for a demo and then being able to work back to your control room to try it out on your session minutes later.

This is what they should do to e-sessions. I love thier business model, but I think Google renders it non-viable.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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memphisindie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I agree with too many posts on this thread, I cut my teeth in big studios. I like tracking in one and mixing in another. I miss "the real hallway", but, GS gets me through. I miss being able to bounce stuff off the big guys and big stars.
I don't like recording alone.
I can track a live band in my lil place but I'd rather use your's with you there.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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opentune's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➡️
I respectfully disagree, I don't think any of this has to do with money.
I would mix 200 songs a year whether I was paid to or not.

Even when no one is paying you, you should be getting better at your art.
Yes, I know we need money to do the things we need and want, but that's got nothing to do with getting better as an engineer.
Yes, that´s true. Getting better as an engineer doesn´t necessarily take money.

Re-reading your first post i understand your point... and i have to agree.

I wanted to post a little more about the problems that i see (money issues mainly, but
not only), but then it felt like hijacking this thread. Or like going off topic.

Probably "bassman" is right by saying that it´s unrealistic to mix 200 songs a year
without getting paid. Wether or not you would achieve that goal (mixing 200 songs),
i have to say that i believe every single word you said.
Getting a credit list like yours (i gave a look at your website) can only be
achieved by simply loving, and therefore continously improving, the
Art Of Engineering.

But still i have the feeling that there´s something wrong "on the money side".
I´m engineering for roundabout 10 years now. I started with tracking on a 1"
Tascam 24 Track and on a bunch of ADATs, depending on what was available.
The musicians were able to record without punch-in - they were even able to
pay for the tape cost.
Now i´m tracking on a PC with as much tracks as you want and no tape cost, but
the musos complain about the rates and ask for editing, autotuning, soundreplacing
and all that stuff...

So how am i supposed to improve my engineering abilities? Hell, i´d give anything
for the opportunity to attend such a "hallway meeting"! But the real studios in my
area shut down and the project studio are lowering their rates weekly.
So i´m having a hard time to keep my studio open - not to mention that it seems
more and more unrealistic to get my own music recorded by a pro.
That´s what i call a downward spiral. Still have no idea how to break this cycle.
But now i´m whining. Time will tell.



Anyway, this is probably the best thread i read on GS. Full of inspiring information.
Hell, it even improved my english - i´m not a native speaker, so some of the threads
going on here have a negative influence on my english (full of spelling mistakes,
lack of syntax, lack of punctuation). But that´s another story.

So, Tony, thanks for starting this thread! Much appreciated!

(note to self: got to improve my english AND my engineering)
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #40
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan ➡️
I think forums like Gearslutz have become our "studio hallway" so to speak. I think the communication and interaction is still there, it just takes places in other forms. If anything, the internet has made the dissemination of knowledge about the craft a more free-flowing thing.

I think the idea of physically being around your peers to watch and learn is important and still happens for many of us, even if it's not taking place in an expensive classic studio.

Brad
Communications have shifted from in-person (listening and interpreting facial expressions, body language) to text (forums, email, and some voice). This complicates the learning process and limits the opportunities for both parties involved in the communication. Have you worked with someone in person, you can see they are processing the information you just told them, and they seem need a little more information to completely understand the concepts?

When you're in person, it is easier to pick up on this and continue the conversation and reach the "common understanding" of the concept.

How can we accomplish this when looking at text on a screen? It is very difficult.

I think the new paradigm has helped us to improve our written communication skills and has opened many new communication opportunities with people around the globe. But this doesn't replace the experience of working in the same room.

I agree with everything that has been stated in earlier posts. I think we may end up with some projects based in one studio (physical location) with people working on it from around the globe. I imagine some of this may already occur. As you may have guessed, I am not an engineer. I'm barely qualified to read the posts on this site. I work in international technology and don't get the chance to visit the folks I work with as frequently as I would like.

I think the responsibilities of engineering will become more important in the future. Recording fidelity continue to improve and expose poor engineering practices. At least I hope so. The challenge may be to keep the knowledge and flow of information moving. Internet forums maybe part of the solution. I think the real challenge is the loss of the face to face interactions.

Thanks for listening,
Mark

ps: I started lurking on this site to learn about setting up a personal studio. The info I have learned hear will save me alot of time, money, and anguish. My new approach is to track some simple stuff at home and work with professionals in studios.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #41
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madurbu ➡️
ps: I started lurking on this site to learn about setting up a personal studio. The info I have learned hear will save me a lot of time, money, and anguish. My new approach is to track some simple stuff at home and work with professionals in studios.
Thank you. This is the crux of my OP.
Still having a home/project studio, but going back to what should be a reservoir of knowledge at a pro/commercial studio and incorporating that into what you have in your personal rooms.

It's really not that complicated, those of us who have been doing this for a while, need to reach out to the MBox generation and pass on knowledge that we've learned.

I do about 5 or 6 Masterclasses a year and it really is wonderful getting out there and meeting people in person. Having the added dimension of the give and take, one on one conversations is so much better sometimes for hands-on learning.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #42
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nukmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston ➡️
If you think the BS'ers are only online, you haven't been in the business long enough. Get out and around. You'll find that it's not JUST an internet phenomenon.
I never said that Lynn.
my point was..... I, like yourself (and so many others) have been around long enough to know that there are faaaar more BS'ers "online". or should I say, you'd come in contact with more online than in-person.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #43
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic ➡️
I never said that Lynn.
My mistake then. Apologies.

I do think that you're likely to run into more posers online than in real studios.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Music, like sex, feels best when it's done with other people. Hard to have chemistry with a virtual girl.

I think that we also tend to forget that while software can do some amazing things, you can't program talent into software.

There's also another phenomenon of human interaction — that of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts — which becomes noticeable by its absence when one of those parts decides to go solo.

There's more, but I think Tony summed it up. Engineering is also about craft and the broadening that comes from interaction with other craftsmen. To quote the I Ching:

Knowledge should be a refreshing and vitalizing force. It becomes so only through stimulating intercourse with congenial friends with whom one holds discussion and practices application of the truths of life. In this way learning becomes many-sided and takes on a cheerful lightness, whereas there is always something ponderous and one-sided about the learning of the self-taught.
Old 29th January 2009
  #45
Gear Maniac
 
Astromann's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➡️
Today I was down at Capitol Studios B, recording a choir for the Super Bowl.
16 singers, 6 mics... and one absolutely fantastic sounding studio.

The engineer who was assisting me was Charlie Paakkari, a great engineer in his own right.
The 8068 Neve in Studio B (signed by Rupert himself) is in pristine condition.
Charlie had two reverbs set up for me. An EMT 250 (send 1) and the live chamber underneath Capitol (send 2) .
I immediately went to the chamber for the choir. After turning up the send a little I looked over at Charlie and said, I love plugins, but you just can't beat the sound of this chamber.
Smooth, Warm and Round can only give you glimpses of the colors of this verb.

It's amazing how I miss the camaraderie of having great engineers in the next studio. Simply hanging out in the hallways and discussing the art of engineering.
And yes, at times I do feel like it's becoming a "lost art". I know there will be people who vehemently disagree, that's fine, but have something constructive, not destructive to add to the conversation.

Let's face it. Analog is not going away. Digital is not going away. IMO the future is some kind of hybrid between these two worlds. The same thing can be said about pro and project studios.

This thing we all love to do can get better and better, it is after all an art we all love to practice.
Thanks for that post!!
It's a great thread....I have been working with digital for many years now (mainly engineering, arranging and writing) But not totally digital.
However I especially miss the chemistry of interchange that you get in some of the larger tape based analogue studios.
Astro
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #46
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nukmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston ➡️
My mistake then. Apologies.

I do think that you're likely to run into more posers online than in real studios.
thumbsup cool baby

and here's the perfect example.
https://gearspace.com/board/rap-hip-...quick-tip.html
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #47
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jjblair's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I thought god engineering was knowing the best mic pre to use on egg shaker!
Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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Silvertone's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair ➡️
I thought god engineering was knowing the best mic pre to use on egg shaker!
JJ, I hope God knows what's the best mic pre to use on egg shakers!
Old 31st January 2009
  #49
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ARIEL's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Well here is my thoughts , No it is not a lost art - in fact it is a skill , just like the skill of being able to play and instrument - But then yes you can say art if you think of us as painters trying to paint a sonic picture - times have changed , that is the way it is - but the skill and knowledge has not - you basically just shifted rooms To "big studios" to home pro's - the only difference really is the size of ones drum tracking room - whether we use analogue or digital = same thing were just capturing - I started off with reel to reel - still have mine - will never use it - It is about ones skill in making it sound amazing - knowing what gear to use etc . It boils down to being able to hear - that takes time , understanding frequencies . SO I would say perhaps you are wrong on the thought of it as dying or lost etc . It is still here . just a different set of tools in a different environment . 2 people can have the same set up - One produces amazing work - the other well just sucks at it Mics and preamps are the same thing for years , compressors same thing we just have the advantage of great plug ins that hardware can't do at times . I have now adapted to using a mouse so effectivley that to use a fader on my board would slow me down . lol
Old 31st January 2009
  #50
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A LaMere's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➡️
Today I was down at Capitol Studios B, recording a choir for the Super Bowl.
16 singers, 6 mics... and one absolutely fantastic sounding studio.
Damn great post Tony!
Kudos for that... thumbsup
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #51
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Chaellus's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
this is a great thread... but speaking of capital, this is a page from a newspaper i took out a couple months ago i then scanned it and pdfed it....talk about a dying art. check attachement
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Capitol Studios Fears bad vibes.pdf (464.6 KB, 254 views)
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #52
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opentune's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for scanning the article!
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #53
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Chaellus's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune ➡️
Thanks for scanning the article!

your welcome... i had scanned it awhile ago occuring to the dat about 7 months ago...i was surprise when i read it.. so i thought id save it.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #54
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➡️
Having the added dimension of the give and take, one on one conversations is so much better sometimes for hands-on learning.
Not to mention the passion, inspiration and enthusiasm that can be transferred back and foward , this is very hard to see over the internet , but clear as day when talking to someone .... that rubs off and makes you want to try harder .

It's like seeing the movie Rocky for the first time , we've all seen the result of people punching in the air after coming out of the cinema , i cann't imagine this effect by somebody simply explaining the movie ....
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #55
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier ➡️
Project studios and real studios, such as Capitol, are completely different. Like night and day.
'
Unless one of the top acoustical engineer's in the world designed and built your project studio. heh
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #56
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bcgood's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz ➡️
Not to mention the passion, inspiration and enthusiasm that can be transferred back and foward , this is very hard to see over the internet , but clear as day when talking to someone .... that rubs off and makes you want to try harder .

It's like seeing the movie Rocky for the first time , we've all seen the result of people punching in the air after coming out of the cinema , i cann't imagine this effect by somebody simply explaining the movie ....
That's funny that you say that. I remember when I was younger after seeing that movie on t.v. I went to the bathroom to box in front of the mirror. There is definitely nothing like real human, non-digital face to face interaction.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #57
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz ➡️
Not to mention the passion, inspiration and enthusiasm that can be transferred back and foward , this is very hard to see over the internet , but clear as day when talking to someone .... that rubs off and makes you want to try harder .

It's like seeing the movie Rocky for the first time , we've all seen the result of people punching in the air after coming out of the cinema , i cann't imagine this effect by somebody simply explaining the movie ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood ➡️
That's funny that you say that. I remember when I was younger after seeing that movie on t.v. I went to the bathroom to box in front of the mirror. There is definitely nothing like real human, non-digital face to face interaction.

I find it interesting that the cause of "real human interaction" is being championed and supported by people's interaction with a series of images projected from a piece of celluloid onto a big screen. Or by reading pits off a circular piece of plastic transferred onto an flat LCD panel.

That's about as much human interaction as putting on a CD.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #58
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I understand it seems odd Lynn, but my analogy was an emotional one , a feeling of being inspired ! That happened constantly as i talked to colleagues in the hallways of big studio's , as budgets got smaller and almost everyone moved to working in there own project studio's that link got lost in the process .....
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #59
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vernier's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Long live the big studios!
'
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #60
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz ➡️
I understand it seems odd Lynn, but my analogy was an emotional one , a feeling of being inspired ! That happened constantly as i talked to colleagues in the hallways of big studio's , as budgets got smaller and almost everyone moved to working in there own project studio's that link got lost in the process .....
I can totally relate. We used to have water cooler chats at some of the big 2, 3, 4 room facilities here in town. It was always fun. Now, if you want to make that happen, you have to MAKE it happen, by dropping by some studio when you see an engineer friend's car parked out front.
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