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Rupert Neve Designs 5088 in LA This Week
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 10 years
I just wanted to say thanks to Josh and Jeff for being great hosts at Infrasonic.I was impressed with the 5088 in it's effortless depth and detail sonically.....listening on the Barefoot's didn't hurt either....WOW."Great coffee too.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang ➑️
I heard couple of raw mixes on 5088 and I can hardly ask for more, on the contrary when later I put hands on some older desks I was hugelly disappointed with lack of transparence, noise floor and distortion.
It might be matter of taste, but I prefer high resolution, depth, clean and nice path over anything else that might attract particular sound afficionados.
Anywhere we can hear some raw mixes ?

Maybe someone can point to some recordings at Gravity etc.. to check out..

Also the desk looks stunning - reminds me of one of the old
white API 2488 consoles.
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshRND ➑️
We had the whole Portico Range hooked up to a headphone system..
Yes they did Josh but unfortunately it was a super cheapo presonus headphone amp.Lord I really wanted to check out the eqs but that setup was embarrassing. unlistenabletutt
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Ouch.....harsh, but accurate. Not my pick, and not my favorite. But Jeff's got a pair of 5033s in his desk if you make it by, otherwise I can send you out a demo pair to check out.

Not my pick, and that will be the last trade show for the presonus.
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #35
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andersmv's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshRND ➑️
Ouch.....harsh, but accurate. Not my pick, and not my favorite. But Jeff's got a pair of 5033s in his desk if you make it by, otherwise I can send you out a demo pair to check out.

Not my pick, and that will be the last trade show for the presonus.
You have a hard job and I feel sorry for you. Thanks for busting your ass to make things right, it is appreciated!
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Just wanted to second that Josh is kicking ass. Every post of yours I've read has been extremely informative as well as respectful and has really made me respect RND. On another note, I would kill for a 5088 and if I could convince our owner I'd buy one for the studio tomorrow. I understand the frustrations with routing but I do believe with a smart patchbay solution my workflow wouldn't be hindered enough to overlook the apparent superior sonics. With the 5088, having to reach over and hit a bypass button on an outboard piece is no different than having a hardware insert in PT.

Again, good work Josh!
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshRND ➑️
Ouch.....harsh, but accurate. Not my pick, and not my favorite. But Jeff's got a pair of 5033s in his desk if you make it by, otherwise I can send you out a demo pair to check out.

Not my pick, and that will be the last trade show for the presonus.
No worries.you still rock.its just frustrating to drive to namm expecting to touch and hear certain pieces of gear and find out the xlrs were too short or whatever..I still plan on swinging by Jeffs.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Drop me a line after you swing by Jeff's and let me know what you think. I will still arrange a demo pair of 5033s if needed.

Thanks,

Josh
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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🎧 15 years
Josh,

I had some inside info about the 5088 half a year before it was presented (don't ask). Just as it came out I was pretty excited about it, and studied it for a friend who was considering it. But then I was dismayed as I discovered the chosen path the designers took to configure the mixer as a typical console, and about its overall routing capabilities.
I knew it wasn't going to be of inline topology, but I was expecting it to offer a more flexible workflow scheme.
It's not the 60's anymore and, while the desk is mostly designed to excell sonically, people also demand features that are present in any other current modern desk (even more in the DAW days).


As I mentioned, I studied deeply the entire console and its parts for about a week after the release, with diagrams, PDFs and all, and learnt by "reversal engineering" how and why certain decisions about the product were made, or had to be made.

As it stands, the console is indeed great, don't take me wrong, but honestly it's a bit limited in a multipurpose scenario, one as simple as simultaneous tracking and mixing, which actually requires too much patching IMO.
I found one of the culprits for that to be the existing portico modules, which, while great as stand alone products, offer too many odd combinations of console parts together and not enough I/O, required to be used when integrated together into a console (as in the 5088 case). The second issue was the way the 5088 input module treats source selection.

I tried as hard as I could, but there wasn't a proper way to make the modules and mixer to fully integrate like in modern consoles, with the usual input/tape selection, selectable insert points, and wide flexibility in the arrangenment of the different modules and outboard gear, and make everything to stay in the path when changing uses.



At that point in the analisys, I though about taking the "Steve Jobs path": once something is apparently finished, scream "rubbish", and start all over again from scratch to improve the final product (it always works. Yeah, costs, objectives, blah, blah,.... as a project manager I know all that, but it pays in the end).

So it's by then that I realized that there WAS another (better?) approach in the console design and signal workflow that could have been taken, that would have allowed the mixer to suit ANY workstyle and possible gear configuration. It would have been very simple to implement it back then while at the designing stage. Anyway, I was dismayed that the very competent RND team took a different (more limited?) approach instead.

More precisely, I'm talking here about designing the 541 input module in a very slightly different way, that would have allowed

-the integration on ANY Portico module into the mixer, whether with one or even two vertical penthouse cages, while
-all modules staying in the path for both Line, Tape or "direct module" inputs, for any case scenario,
-a selectable insert point
-plus the possibility of arranging all those things (input source, portico modules and insert point) in ANY ORDER one might desire, which is somthing that right now the 5088 doesn't allow (it doesn't even have insert points).


Fortunately, and because ot the 5088 modulatity, that possibility still exists, and it would only imply building a very slightly different 541 input module; everything else would remain the same.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
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GYang's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️

So it's by then that I realized that there WAS another (better?) approach in the console design and signal workflow that could have been taken, that would have allowed the mixer to suit ANY workstyle and possible gear configuration. It would have been very simple to implement it back then while at the designing stage. Anyway, I was dismayed that the very competent RND team took a different (more limited?) approach instead.

More precisely, I'm talking here about designing the 541 input module in a very slightly different way, that would have allowed

-the integration on ANY Portico module into the mixer, whether with one or even two vertical penthouse cages, while
-all modules staying in the path for both Line, Tape or "direct module" inputs, for any case scenario,
-a selectable insert point
-plus the possibility of arranging all those things (input source, portico modules and insert point) in ANY ORDER one might desire, which is somthing that right now the 5088 doesn't allow (it doesn't even have insert points).


Fortunately, and because ot the 5088 modulatity, that possibility still exists, and it would only imply building a very slightly different 541 input module; everything else would remain the same.

Sounds reasonable on paper, but would it be easy to implement?
If yes, I'm sure RND will do it, if not 5088 still covers 90% of typical expectations from console with sound that is real reason to choose it.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
old new

Since RND has moved to a new team maybe a new console would have some of these features
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
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jindrich's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang ➑️
Sounds reasonable on paper, but would it be easy to implement?
If yes, I'm sure RND will do it, if not 5088 still covers 90% of typical expectations from console with sound that is real reason to choose it.
It has to be. It's not about severy modifying the input module, its transformers, circuits, etc, but simply about taking a different approach at the 5088's internal logic and its interaction with its inputs and portico modules in the penthouse.

As a graphic example, take a school with a certain number of teachers, for different subjects, and a certain number of classrooms. Then you have to find the right schedule so that all classrooms are attended equally all week long. If you don't program it properly, you might find empty spots or that you require more teachers. If you do it right, you cover everything from the ground up.


So I found a way that only by altering the (541) input module's path/workflow, and nothing else (unless you want somthing like transformers on all inserts, which I dont think makes sense), all possible combinations of portico modules, individually selectable insert points and overall rearrangement of all sections within the module are possible for all the available inputs.
It would require a redesign of the (541) input module PATH, a different source-button combination on the module's surface and some different I/O connectors on the back, that's all.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
Josh...
I have experience with the 5088 at Gravity and the only limitation that I've found with it is that we only have the 16 channel version. Personally, I want more but it's not in the books (I love those huge SSLs and VRs of yesteryear, mainly just because they're huge - size matters right?)

With the Gravity set up, we skipped all of the Portico Buss ins/out. The patchbay is set up so that to track anything to either PT or tape, you only have to throw a patch to the recorder input. Since we use PT 99 times out of 100, the PT outputs are normalled back through the board, so for mixing you don't really have to do any patching.

That might sound a little confusing, but maybe this will help. This is roughly the signal flow for the room:
> - normal
+ - patch

Tracking - Mic > Portico pre + multitrack in
Mixing - Multitrack out > Portico EQ > Console line in
Monitoring tape - Studer out > Console tape in

Very quick and easy IMHO. If you need to insert anything, you can have the choice of pre or post eq. Bypass? Just use the hardware bypass on the unit, you're down there anyway. It's not a big deal to me.

After setting up the board, I don't think it would be easy (near impossible) for them to redo any part of this so that the portico units are integrated into the mixer. I could come up with a home mod for you to get what you wanted here (porticos always in line), but it wasn't really designed for that sort of thing. At least from what I see...

edit: sneaky sneaky
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
So I found a way that only by altering the (541) input module's path/workflow, and nothing else (unless you want somthing like transformers on all inserts, which I dont think makes sense), all possible combinations of portico modules, individually selectable insert points and overall rearrangement of all sections within the module are possible for all the available inputs.
It would require a redesign of the (541) input module PATH, a different source-button combination on the module's surface and some different I/O connectors on the back, that's all.
I don't think it could done. There's no room left back there to work that sort of thing out.

Last edited by iamlark; 2nd February 2009 at 10:15 PM.. Reason: what kind of bb code did i mess up here?
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
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jindrich's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
iamlark,

I know that this one you're pointing out is one of the possible signal flows, but it's not 100% hassle free. It still requires a little patching for a basic operation, depending on which modules are there and still there's no insert point at all (pre/post eq switchable), so for comparisons you must leave the sweet spot and reach the racks for the outboard unit in question for a quick bypass, that is IMO not acceptable in a modern console.

What I am saying is that operating the 5088 can be a bit cumbersome depending on the task, it doesn't cover all bases from the ground up and that some kind of patching is necessary for basic stuff. That could have been solved by designing the input module's path a little differently.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
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thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
and still there's no insert point at all (pre/post eq switchabley.
Again I ask how many consoles out there have this feature or have ever had this feature till now? Uh.....try SSL's. Any other consoles/mixers manufacturers in existence i can count on with the fingers on one hand.

You guys act like that its a default standard that every mixer should have. On most consoles/mixer the insert point wasn't switchable. It was either after the mic pre before the EQ or afterwards. There is a reason SSL's sound like they do and cost what they do to own and repair. You add more switches to the channels you are asking for more headaches in the future in terms of repairs and costs. Not to mention what that will do the sound.

Personally if it were me and RND took a poll what would you rather have...a switchable insert point or more busses i would pass on the switchable insert point in a second.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
iamlark,

I know that this one you're pointing out is one of the possible signal flows, but it's not 100% hassle free. It still requires a little patching for a basic operation, depending on which modules are there and still there's no insert point at all (pre/post eq switchable), so for comparisons you must leave the sweet spot and reach the racks for the outboard unit in question for a quick bypass, that is IMO not acceptable in a modern console.

What I am saying is that operating the 5088 can be a bit cumbersome depending on the task, it doesn't cover all bases from the ground up and that some kind of patching is necessary for basic stuff. That could have been solved by designing the input module's path a little differently.
No one said that using an analog board would be hassle free.

If you need an insert switch then just hook the portico buss outs to the console buss ins. Insert your outboard between the regular portico outs and the line ins and the input selector becomes your insert switch.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
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jindrich's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thrill, well, switchable inserts, that's all about tastes. But what about this:

you got a 5088 mixer with 5033 EQs on penthouse. For the console to be ready for mixing anytime, the path is (normalled patchbay) D/A> 5033 EQ > mixer (and NOT, D/A>mixer's tape input, cause you'd override the EQ).

But now you're tracking and patch some preamp (and maybe comp) into the desk. ...um...where?

if to the mixer inputs, the 5033 EQ is out of the path for tracking
if to the 5033 input (on patchbay) the D/A is no more into the console, thus to listen back to tape you'd have to unplug a cable, back and forth. Repeat this for every channel, etc.

Ok, you could also just patch ALL D/A outs into the mixer's tape ins, temporarily (on the patchbay), BEFORE starting the tracking session, and then all the preamps into the 5033 inputs, and now you can toggle between input/tape on the mixer. The session can start now, but that's still a lot of unnecessary patching to me.


(from some old desk that allowed switching the entire console from say, Mixing to Overdubbing, back and forth, with a single button press, I wouldn't call the above progress...)
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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jindrich's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamlark ➑️
No one said that using an analog board would be hassle free.

If you need an insert switch then just hook the portico buss outs to the console buss ins. Insert your outboard between the regular portico outs and the line ins and the input selector becomes your insert switch.
not that easy. as i've pointed out before, if you have the eq or pre+eq module, you cannot put a compressor pre eq if you do that.


Im only stating this as issues that when a buyer is comparing, founds such limitations that aren't in other consoles (and that all this could have been avoided had the RND team designed the input modules in some other fashion, as i found out was possible)



FWIW, i'd like to add that odd choices are not only in the 5088 console . API's 1608 switchable insert points come after the EQ, thus instead of a simple switch press, it's bypassing on the outboard unit and patchbay time too, if you want to put a comp between the pre and eq (as it's often the case).
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #49
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thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
Thrill, well, switchable inserts, that's all about tastes. But what about this:

you got a 5088 mixer with 5033 EQs on penthouse. For the console to be ready for mixing anytime, the path is (normalled patchbay) D/A> 5033 EQ > mixer (and NOT, D/A>mixer's tape input, cause you'd override the EQ).

But now you're tracking and patch some preamp (and maybe comp) into the desk. ...um...where?

if to the mixer inputs, the 5033 EQ is out of the path for tracking
if to the 5033 input (on patchbay) the D/A is no more into the console, thus to listen back to tape you'd have to unplug a cable, back and forth. Repeat this for every channel, etc.

Ok, you could also just patch ALL D/A outs into the mixer's tape ins, temporarily (on the patchbay), BEFORE starting the tracking session, and then all the preamps into the 5033 inputs, and now you can toggle between input/tape on the mixer. The session can start now, but that's still a lot of unnecessary patching to me....
For tracking mic pre/compressor---> patchbay or hardwired--->A/D done!!!

For mixing---D/A--->patchbay--->5033 patch point normalled---> mixer input done!!!

I don't get what's so difficult?

If you want to use the 5033 when tracking just patch into the mic pre channel.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
(from some old desk that allowed switching the entire console from say, Mixing to Overdubbing, back and forth, with a single button press, I wouldn't call the above progress...)
Well this is something else. You really want or would need some kind of inline/tape monitor and on modern consoles that 's gone the way of the Dodo just like having more than 8 group busses. I guess to some manfacturers its passe, you know very 20th century.

I mean lets get down to it, its about money. When SSL was in their heyday what made them so successful is that they would price exactly what it would take to make every console sold to ensure that they were not making a loss. You ever heard the expression" they would cook & eat every good part, plus the beak and feet" nothing wasted. That was SSL. To do what you are asking for would probably price alot of these new boards out of their small markets. Also remember how things are manufactured these days is that there is a whole assembly dedicated to just one part. To upset that after is going to cost.

I guess that's where all of the real expensive techs come in. You know the guys that say they can modify anything, but take a year to do it and end up costing a kings ransomn for something that makes a little difference sonically in the end.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #50
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seaneldon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I've gotta agree with thethrillfactor here. I'll actually take it one step further and say that if you can't engineer your way into a workflow with this console...you probably shouldn't engineer. It's basic...but there's nothing wrong with basic.

Some guys want or need more busses. I don't use any more than 8 busses while tracking a live band if my console also has direct outs from the mic pres. I definitely don't use more than 6 busses while mixing.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #51
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seaneldon ➑️
I've gotta agree with thethrillfactor here. I'll actually take it one step further and say that if you can't engineer your way into a workflow with this console...you probably shouldn't engineer. It's basic...but there's nothing wrong with basic.
I am not saying the 5088 isn't workable, just stating my dismay on the way the desk has been designed, when IT WAS entirely possible to had it built to cover pretty much all engineer's needs, without any significant price difference.

Then in a feature comparison against similary priced consoles, like the AWS900+ for instance, the 5088 doesnt fare that well. That should matter to RND as it might keep buyers away (I can testify for one that got the SSL instead).
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #52
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seaneldon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
I am not saying the 5088 isn't workable, just stating my dismay on the way the desk has been designed, when IT WAS entirely possible to had it built to cover pretty much all engineer's needs, without any significant price difference.

Then in a feature comparison against similary priced consoles, like the AWS900+ for instance, the 5088 doesnt fare that well. That should matter to RND as it might keep buyers away (I can testify for one that got the SSL instead).
All engineers' needs = a desk that does everything including hanging the mics = way more money to manufacture/market/support than you think you know about. Cut the bull****.

Comparing the 5088 to an AWS900+ is ridiculous. One of them's got transformers for all of the I/O and is customizable to a degree while retaining "old school desk" traits, the other is a little SSL console.

I think the AWS900+ is a cool console. I helped install two of them before they got the "+". You are, however, comparing apples to computers.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #53
Harmless Wacko
 
🎧 15 years
Why am I getting the mental image I'm at a Chinese restaurant, and some guy is standing in the FOYER... trying to tell Chef Wong that what he REALLY wanted to make...


wasn't Chow Fun....


it was


Lobster Ravioli?





Tirekickers.

Gotta love 'em.

Come in all sizes.

Even "expert" size.

Same as it ever was.

SM.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #54
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Oh yeah, someone was asking to hear the board.

Check out Filligar's new album Near or Far. Part of the album was mixed on our former 8058, the rest on the 5088. I can no longer remember what was done on what and I bet you can't tell the difference either. Doug talks about it in this post: RUPERT NEVE DESIGNS 5088 MIXING CONSOLE

Filligar's myspace is here: Filligar on MySpace Music , and the tracks are on iTunes as well.

Also, on the new Live album - Live at the Paradiso, the two studio tracks (Forever and Purifier) were tracked through the 5088.

FWIW, Forever is on their myspace - Live on MySpace Music
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #55
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GYang's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
I am not saying the 5088 isn't workable, just stating my dismay on the way the desk has been designed, when IT WAS entirely possible to had it built to cover pretty much all engineer's needs, without any significant price difference.

Then in a feature comparison against similary priced consoles, like the AWS900+ for instance, the 5088 doesnt fare that well. That should matter to RND as it might keep buyers away (I can testify for one that got the SSL instead).
Your persistence in defending standpoint is appreciated , but somehow biased.
In past I hoped that SSL would produce 32 ch smaller format console like Matrix + more busses + some EQs in 100k price region.
They don't for whatever commercial reason and fvck them, as I don't want big piece of junk in my studio and 24 ch are not enough.
On the other hand, SSL didn't and doesn't deliver sound I like 100%, so although clean and punchy it's not same clean as sounds I appreciate way more.
Anyway, buying SSL in my understanding (at least at Matrix-AWS 900 level) would be for me a compromise.
5088 misses some (again IMO) small functionality that I would probably like to have (not counting here switchable inserts through right patchbay configuration on mixdown that are already implemented in way I need), but INDEED not to extent to accept any compromises to the sound.
So, in mental comparisons of non-existing SSL 32 ch console and similarly (guess, but most likely) fully loaded 5088 (understanding more routing and DAW controlling capabilities, so different beasts), I would take 5088 in a second.
I think that many potential customers of RND required what you mentioned in your posts (and it is well defined and explained issue), but guys at RND strongly believe that such drawback is not so critical to influence choice.
Believe me, I moved more than 3 years toward purchasing analogue console and I got so many proposals of used consoles that I could instal it long time ago. Problem was balance of two key issues, reasonable functionality and sound, without being neither to big nor to complicate. So far, RND 5088 is really the closest to that and final element of decision is based on console's sound, as well as, quality of add-on modules that fully suit my tastes.
SSL is not alternative to 5088 in same way 5088 is not alternative to SSL.

SSL guys clearly see benefits of SSL and that's really OK.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #56
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think it's pretty funny that Large format consoles start to go away, then people start to realise that they want more than ITB, so they go to summing boxes, then they want more features, then they decide to add things like fader packs, inserts, auxes, etc, then they realise that a small format console might make more sense, then they want more groups and greater flexibility, and before you know it they are basically asking for a large format analogue console again.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #57
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RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire Prod ➑️
and before you know it they are basically asking for a large format analogue console again.

and these same folks expect all the bells and whistles and sonic greatness with a lower price tag.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #58
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jindrich's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Being able to have the Pre+EQ or Pre+Comp or full EQ or whatever you have above in the channel into the path on any of the channel's inputs (without ANY patching!), or having switchable insert points,...

...yes, those are very esoteric demands, ...

...that's why they've been implemented into practically every console in the last two decades.



My point regarding those oddly missing bits on the 5088, is that they aren't missing because of cost reasons, but because of... lack of some further planning into the design??

In strong contrast, look at the aux sends on the 5088. They are EXTREMELY sophisticated and offer options hardly any other console has ever brought. That makes the lack of the above mentioned items even more shocking.

Anyway, I looked into the matter and found out that a simple revision to the 5088's "541" input module would solve all the issues. From there it's up to RND to decide whether to get into that or not.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #59
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jindrich's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
GYang,

my words have nothing to do with SSL. I was looking into the 5088 with a colleague and wanted to configure a 16ch with 1084s on the penthouse. But then I found out about its odd routing, which for some entirely kills the workflow. Simple as that.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #60
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor ➑️
For tracking mic pre/compressor---> patchbay or hardwired--->A/D done!!!

For mixing---D/A--->patchbay--->5033 patch point normalled---> mixer input done!!!

I don't get what's so difficult?

If you want to use the 5033 when tracking just patch into the mic pre channel.

ok, so when tracking you monitor the DAW outputs through the console, bypassing it on the way to the AD.

but if you want to use any of the 5033 EQs in your penthouse when tracking you have to patch it in, which would break the DAW return signal your monitoring for that channel, which you would also have to patch to another input of the channel without the 5033 normalled to it.

it all just seems rather counter-intuitive to me, and even more so if you want to integrate outboard mic preamps, a DAW and a 24 track tape machine.

a bit arse over tit as we say in Ireland.

look, i have no beef with RND, i have demoed some of their gear and think that it sounds great. i have no doubt that the 5088 sounds great. i'm not belabouring this argument just because i like the noise it makes. i'm just trying to discuss what a console could and in my opinion should do for today's engineers.

which is, of course, all based on the way of working that i have in mind and is, as such, to be taken with a grain of salt, as something to maybe think about but nothing to get worked up about.

now, have any of you guys actually properly checked out that ADT ToolMod console? if you haven't, you should. the flexibility in the routing is incredibly clever, as is the selection of channels, frames and penthouse processors available. it's very interesting but the crappy website makes it a healthy challenge to design your console from the components.

i managed to figure it out and specced one with 24 mono inline channels with 5-band EQ, full master section, 8 inline stereo channels as stereo group masters and simultaneous stereo returns, 4 sets of assignable stereo processors (5-band EQ, dynamics, M-S/stereo), full set of VUs, custom frame, etc... all in for about €50K EX VAT.

i haven't flown to Germany for a test drive yet, but i will.

the big question now is what does she sound like?

apologies if that's OT about the ADT, just bouncing ideas around.
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