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Mix Style - Purely a function of repetition?
Old 3rd April 2003
  #61
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
first thing ive heard from her that makes sense when speaking of nirvana. i cant even listen to the album its so bad. i dont like him because i think his recordings suck.

i think the new tape op summed it up well. cant remember the guy who was talking about him.
Ken Andrews. The band he was in was called Failure. I have all three of those albums and the first one is...uhhhh...interesting in comparison to the other two. I think he summed it up well though, Steve's approach works with some bands and doesn't work with others. He's made some really great records that I love and some others that I really dislike.

Let's not turn this into another Steve Albini is a god or Steve Albini sucks thread.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #62
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
i think the new tape op summed it up well. cant remember the guy who was talking about him. i dont believe the studio should be a place for being a "librarian" or "documentarian"... he should be a ****ing remote guy recording live shows.... maybe he missed his calling and should of been a grateful dead taper. i see the studio as an instrument to take things further than reality.

p.s. i think his tones suck too. no bottom, ****ty vacant top, nasty ass midrange.
c'mon, wadda ya REALLY think?
that's one way of looking at it and he is diametrically the other way of looking at it. i'm glad i got both down and can ğk some serious **** up. i mean look at tony faulkner. serious recordist.
if that's what you're hearing then that's probably a bit of what it sounded like. he recorded buddies o' mine and i think that it's a swell record. i make shure and clean the needle before i play it, tho'
Old 3rd April 2003
  #63
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
p.s. i think his tones suck too. no bottom, ****ty vacant top, nasty ass midrange.
So your saying, Yes: Mixing is a function of repetition?
Old 3rd April 2003
  #64
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
So your saying, Yes: Mixing is a function of repetition?
yeah... but i would hope people would get better and better at it incrementally adding more and more details over time.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #65
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
"... he should be a ****ing remote guy recording live shows....
whats wrong with remote guys? I am not defending Albini, but remote recording is far from artless.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #66
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith
whats wrong with remote guys? I am not defending Albini, but remote recording is far from artless.
i didnt say its artless, but its more about capturing [documenting] the performance over creating something more than what transpires live.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #67
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
i didnt say its artless, but its more about capturing [documenting] the performance over creating something more than what transpires live.
i'm totally down with being sensitive enough to know when to mess with it so it goes beyond reality. but i wish that i was good enough to be able to capture a performance in total. gawd. i stand in the room and listen and then i listen at the mic pres and then i listen at the a/d converter and then i listen at the workstation. every time i go down the chain there is more and more loss. one of the things i dig about steve's body of work is his ability to capture MORE of what was there. it's true that he doesn't distort that reality into something totally different. does that mean that he doesn't know how to mix?
i never thought that this thread would end up here.
i thought that SM's original question was an excellent socratic device that has spawned some great discussion here. i'd like to thank him for his insight and (if he reads this) have him know that i think ever so slightly different about my art and craft.

"Mix Style - Purely a function of repetition?

How does one determine/develop a 'Mix Style'?

Is it just a function of doing the same things over and over again?

What makes us say "Clearmountain" or "Wallace" when we hear a mix on the radio or playing on a CD before we see the credits?

Does style exist anywhere OUTSIDE of routine subscription to form/methodology?

SM."
Old 3rd April 2003
  #68
Gear Addict
 
mixer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
to me being a recording engineer, producer ,mixer has always meant being a slave to the music. each performance demands its own individual attention. the real trick is to understand the outcome in each step. not hearing the final mix at each point ,but hearing the idea of the mix at each step in the process. like a photographer framing a photo and understanding darkroom techinque , microphone placement and mixing are a single process in my mind. knowing what each piece of equipment does to and manipulates the sound is an important start ,and thats what i have learned through practice and experience,..the rest is talent and of course having great music and players. no matter what you do garbage in is garbage out.
just my opinion.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #69
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by µ¿ z3®ø™
one of the things i dig about steve's body of work is his ability to capture MORE of what was there.
i see it as the exact opposite... err hear it that way. i think what he does capturing bands makes them sound ****ty. best way i can express it is like hearing a band live in a room over AM radio. or in a small midrangy room where natural room compression took over long before anything decent started to sound. a lot of his stuff that i have heard/bought sounds like he has a HPfilter engaged at 80hz across the whole mix.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #70
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
oh and was this the thread about TALENT? i have rethought my position. TALENT, natural TALENT does exist i think, and i dont think no matter how hard you practice you could equal Natural Talent. i was wrong earlier. although hard work enchances talent... but i always thought that what i do is a result of my life. but looking back on it, things just always came naturally.

of course, i dont think that all humans are created equal... some just possess far more ability than others.

but i DONT think that just because one is "famous" that they possess talent, natural or otherwise... unless its the talent of networking and bull****ting.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #71
Lives for gear
 
Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
"unless its the talent of networking and bull****ting."

I wonder if I have talent in that direction, and it's just stunted as hell...


I think there is an unbelievable pool of untapped talent in the world. Now working it into something really worthwhile is very rare indeed, considering how many people there are out there...

I tend to think if I could pass as a normal well-adjusted human I would not have put so very much into working with what I have here in the musical field. It's all I'm any good for, really.
Old 5th April 2003
  #72
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
fantastic thread!

wow..... I'm learning lot's.

I think the great ones certainly use repitition/tricks etc...... but they also use (to quote the Cowardly Lion) Courage. They are not afraid to make a decision and stay with it if it works.

Another thing is giving yourself permission to fail.
Every mix (including Bob) is not a home run.
Experiment and love what you're doing. Walk away when your head is filled with bricks and you trip down the stairs.

Try something that is the exact opposite of what you would normally do just to shake the tree.

Have your wife/friend/partner listen ( after 12 hous mixing she'll say "the hi hats too loud in the first bar)


Keep 'em coming!
chap
Old 5th April 2003
  #73
Lives for gear
 
Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Taking lotsa lotsa breaks is most essential! The ears wear out fast but the mind fries way faster..
Old 5th April 2003
  #74
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
but i DONT think that just because one is "famous" that they possess talent, natural or otherwise... unless its the talent of networking and bull****ting.
But as we all know, that is half of the gig.
Old 5th April 2003
  #75
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
But as we all know, that is half of the gig.
thats the sad thing about humanity. TRUE talent can go unnoticed by the masses... and sometimes its better that way. PURITY is a gift, but society likes to spoil it when it becomes discovered.
Old 6th April 2003
  #76
Lives for gear
 
pounce's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i think mix style has to do with the mixers taste, style, and the way the music filters through our pysche. sure, talent and ears are needed. also we find our way back to some tricks we like for thickening, or spaciousness, or whatnot. but i don't believe it's a matter of being cookie cutter per se.

however, i've always thought that the key role of the engineer as being the ringleader for the artist. knowing how to get a good performance, keep an engery level up, keep enthusiasm up, and set a tone for the process. this tone and sensibility translates into the tracking and mixing. i have always thought (perhaps my type a personality talking) that the engineer has the opportunity to be a gently "in control" host to the artist, and set the tone. after listening to the band and music, there is a sense of it being your interpretation of the performance. i am sure any given performance can be tracked and then mixed to be bigger sounding, or more intimate, or fuller, etc. based on our reaction to it. so it gets back to our opinion or interpretation being a good one in that it fulfills the bands vision.

that is to say i just think people _have_ to impose thier opinion on the mix, as well as the rest of the process to be doing thier jobs right. it's a matter of things having to be filtered through our brains. and it affects the mix. if you have good talent and taste, it will affect the mixes positively without making things seem homogenous. since we can all name engineers with wide appeal that we like with a lot of consensus, i think it can be shown that some talented people with good bands and good gear will be able to impose their taste on the process to good affect. training helps, but anyone can be trained. is a good sense of musical taste nature or nurture, i dont' know. my parents have terrible taste in music and i don't , so go figure.
Old 7th April 2003
  #77
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
i think the new tape op summed it up well. cant remember the guy who was talking about him. i dont believe the studio should be a place for being a "librarian" or "documentarian"... he should be a ****ing remote guy recording live shows....
So, does he do everything live to 2 track? No splicing? No comping? Does he refuse to punch f' ups? Double guitars? Layering backgrounds?

Don't get me wrong, I love live to 2 track sessions, but come on.

Imagine "Whole Lotta Love" without the: *muffed* woman ...<delay> *clear* WOMAN!!!, you neeeeddddddddd.

I usually try to give each producer his or own sound, but somehow you can always tell that my 'stank' is in there somewhere.
Old 7th April 2003
  #78
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
So, does he do everything live to 2 track? No splicing? No comping? Does he refuse to punch f' ups? Double guitars? Layering backgrounds?
not even. pretty well live to multitrack analog. splicing, overdubs when needed, comps when needed. doesn't double much 'cuz he uses more of a room sound. pretty raw, rock 'n roll, dynamic hi-fi recordings. some like it. some don't, i guess.
Old 8th April 2003
  #79
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by µ¿ z3®ø™
pretty raw, rock 'n roll, dynamic hi-fi recordings.
you got two out of 3 right. but HIFI is one thing he DOESNT do... not even close.
Old 8th April 2003
  #80
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
you got two out of 3 right. but HIFI is one thing he DOESNT do... not even close.
with all due respect....
my understanding of the term hi-fi is that it is a diminutive of high fidelity. as in "maintaining a high fidelity to the source". based on that criterion and having been present at some of the said recordings, i stand by what i said.
jay, i don't know U nor do i have any predilection to "lock horns" with U. i understand that intelligent people have differences of opinion. i, for the most part, like steve's hi-fi recordings and U do not.
i am a relative newbie here and for the most part have enjoyed the informed, intelligent discourse that occurs here. i have been able to make informed descisions based on what i have learned in these forums. i dig comin' here.
i usually make careful consideration for the things that i write and in no way is it my intention to mislead anyone. it is not important that anyone find themselves in agreement with me. that's not the point.
jay, U do not like steve's work.
i do.
i don't think that those opinions make either one of us any less of a human being. it seems evident that we have different criterion in making those judgements. is it not possible to leave it at that?
i might like red. U might like black.
Old 9th April 2003
  #81
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
µ¿ z3®ø™,

Yeah, we disagree. I believe recordings like the stuff he did with the Pixies, Screachin' Weasel, or John Specter Blues explosion are considered among the "lo fi" catogory.
Old 9th April 2003
  #82
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
µ¿ z3®ø™,

Yeah, we disagree. I believe recordings like the stuff he did with the Pixies, Screachin' Weasel, or John Specter Blues explosion are considered among the "lo fi" catogory.
yeah. ironical, ain't it.
what i'm really surprised about is nobody mentioning the mitchell froom/tchad blake axis of evil. now THERE are cookie cutters that invented their own shape.
Old 9th April 2003
  #83
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by µ¿ z3®ø™
yeah. ironical, ain't it.
what i'm really surprised about is nobody mentioning the mitchell froom/tchad blake axis of evil. now THERE are cookie cutters that invented their own shape.
Axis of evil? I happen to like a lot of the stuff albini does, and we both share a fondness for the Neotek line of console. I'd hardly consider him evil. I just wouldn't consider him 'hi fi'. The stuff Tchad Blake did on the last Peter Gaberiel record... amazing. You can hear the sans amp and level loc on just KNOW who came up with that sound. It is a good example of mix style being reconginzed by varations on repetition.
Old 9th April 2003
  #84
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by µ¿ z3®ø™
yeah. ironical, ain't it.
what i'm really surprised about is nobody mentioning the mitchell froom/tchad blake axis of evil. now THERE are cookie cutters that invented their own shape.
Axis of Evil? Puhleezz. They have certain signature sounds, but they've made some amazing, appropriate records in a variety of styles. Have you heard the last Low record that Tchad mixed?

I like a lot of their records, and a lot of Albini's.

I agree that Albini Sucks/Albini is God is an incredibly played-out topic, but one thought: the records everyone always mentions are 10-15 years old. My favorite Albini records are more recent: Robbie Fulks, Neurosis, Labradford...
Old 9th April 2003
  #85
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
Axis of evil?
........ I just wouldn't consider him 'hi fi'.
i suppose axis of evil 'cuz there is a tendancy to go against the grain of prevailing music industry trends. i've always loved blake/froom. had the pleasure of seeing how they worked when they were here recording ron sexsmith.
right. hi-fi versus lo-fi semantics. again, i think that it all depends how U define your criterion. i get called fo gigs 'cuz i have a good ear for lo-fi. how do i do it? minimalist, high quality chain/stereo, decca tree mic'd capture of the soundfield and record as quickly as possible. just like i do when i record classical.
i understand the context of lo-fi as far as, say, early guided by voices. but there is stuff that i listen to that has been tagged "lo-fi" and i think, "my, what a wonderful recording. it makes me feel as if i am sitting in and listening to something special."
Old 9th April 2003
  #86
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by µ¿ z3®ø™

jay, i don't know U nor do i have any predilection to "lock horns" with U.
Are you talking to "AJ" as in Alpha? 'Cuase I haven't checked in on this thread for a few days and there are a couple of other Jay's on here... Last time I checked we hadn't locked horns yet. But give me some time and it'll happen.
Old 9th April 2003
  #87
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Are you talking to "AJ" as in Alpha? 'Cuase I haven't checked in on this thread for a few days and there are a couple of other Jay's on here... Last time I checked we hadn't locked horns yet. But give me some time and it'll happen.
doh!!!! mea culpa.
right, your first sentence elucidates my error succinctly.
we shall lock horns...........
Old 9th May 2003
  #88
Lives for gear
 
stealthbalance's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
just because a mixer has a template setup for the mixing they do , doesn't
mean that that is the reason everything they do sounds the same.
its just so they can work more quickly and not make everything a hassle.
its just a systen of working. the eq on a desk is abundant and as far as
never changing a threshhold setting on a compressor that you have
living on an insert - you can tweak the line trim on that channel and
acheive the same thing. same with outboard fx. is it not good to have
a setup that you know is 90% there with choices of gear & verbs and
even settings?
Old 9th May 2003
  #89
Lives for gear
 
Fibes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Talking about other engineers isn't helping anyone on here. If you use a template, good for you, if you don't, good for you too.

There are days when I'm thankful for the lazy ineptitude of my competition/peers. Some of you should be thankful too.
Old 9th May 2003
  #90
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by stealthbalance
just because a mixer has a template setup for the mixing they do , doesn't
mean that that is the reason everything they do sounds the same.
its just so they can work more quickly and not make everything a hassle.
its just a systen of working. the eq on a desk is abundant and as far as
never changing a threshhold setting on a compressor that you have
living on an insert - you can tweak the line trim on that channel and
acheive the same thing. same with outboard fx. is it not good to have
a setup that you know is 90% there with choices of gear & verbs and
even settings?
Good point. I always think it's kinda cool when I do a mix on a Neve (I normally work off SSL 9000j's) and play it for a client and they don't think any of my gear has changed. I tweek things till I hear them the way I envison them. Normally I have a certain set up I keep as a template. It helps effiencey in during the mix, and esspecially if you need to do a recall. I do listen to each sound and really put thought into it without just going "Well, that my lead vocal so I need to send it to the 480L and just change my pre delay...".
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