I have a Cranesong HEDD 102 and I like it a lot. But, of course, it is only 2 channels. The Apogee AD-16 is temping, what with 16 channels. But how much would I be giving up? How does the AD-16 compare to the HEDD (24 bit, 44.1)?

No.

It would be more accurate to compare the HEDD to the Apogee Trak2. In which case, the Trak2 wins.
Others may disagree but check the feature set and DSP. The Trak2 also has great mic pres as well as tape emulation. They are both great converters.

I guess features are more important than sound quality to some...

There isn't an Apogee made that sounds as good as the HEDD-192.

That's my findings too, Brad.

Brad,
You're welcome to your opinion as I am to mine.
I own converters from 6 manufacturers. I've auditioned the HEDD and while it sounds great,
the conversion on the Trak2 sounds better to me and many others.

I do some mastering at Sterling Sound in NYC and I have yet to see a HEDD in a rack there. It's a 7 million dollar facility.
I won't get into a pissing match about this but at the level we're talking about (my Manley SLAM! sounds better than the HEDD) it becomes subjective.
I have lot's of Cranesong gear and use it every day. The HEDD sounds fine but it's not any better than the Trak2 or Manley either.(or the Troisis I own). It's not a mythological piece that will fix everyone's problems. Neither is the Trak2. They're all just tools and only function well in the right hands not To make a blanket statement about Apogee vs. Hedd as some sort of factual declaration is misleading and false. We all love to justify our own purchases (because we find things that work for us) but let's let this forum become another 'cock of the walk' forum. There's lot's of places to cockle doodle doo but this ain't one of them.

Let's keep it clear that we're all giving our opinions here and that's all they are.
peace,
JC

This is so true Brad....it's amazing that many people still find this questionable or is a big suprise. I guess advertising budget is very influential.

Nicely said, Chap. I've done a/b's between apogee and cranesong, and find my cranesong to sound better to my ears. But of course we are talking about very very subjective pieces of gear. I'm curious to hear the manley SLAM! as I've been eyeing that piece for some time.

'advertising budget'?
Apogee is a small company with under 20 employees.
Kinda hard to lump them in with the big behemoth advertisers.
Is good 'hype'? Nope, it's just good.
If an ad can sway your opinion instead of your ears, you should be in Hollywood.
My guess is that nost of us will be clocking to Big Ben by the end of the year.
BTW, the SLAM! is incredible. (my opinion of course)
peace,
chap

I though we were discussing the HEDD vs Apogee. If we're talking about big budget items, then I'll take the Lavry's.

I can't seem to find where I wrote that it was.

I really can't see where anything I said is anything other than opinion.

I don't know where this attitude of yours has come from, but in my opinion, nothing I have written deserves it. Cheers.

Brad,
I don't know how to use the quote system but:

"There isn't an Apogee made that sounds as good as a Hedd"

sounds like a factual statement. My only point is that it isn't a fact. It's a well informed opinion (as is mine). Other than that, I don't have a problem or an attitude. Just a bunch of informed opinions. You're just as entitled to yours as I am to mine but that's all they are so carry on. I usually like your posts but happen to take exception to that one. Hope it doesn't harsh your mellow.
cheers,
chap

Sorry, I didn't realize I didn't make it clear in my initial post.

In my opinion, no Apogee made will hang with the HEDD.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Ok Chap, you came down just a little hard on Brad. Let's keep a cool head here and remember that this is ALL about opinions, that's what everything here is. Whether someone thinks that Brad's opinon is right, or your's or mine is right or wrong doesn't even matter, but we share here without knocking each other down. The "cock-waggling" that you accused Brad of doing isn't even close. Brad is calm, collective, very knowledgable and a valuable member of this and other forums.

And in response to your statement about Apogee not having a large advertising budget and being a "small" boutique company (which they are not by any means boutique), I'm looking at two $3000/month full page color ads in Mix & EQ magazine that they run every month. I'd be happy to locate all the other advertisements in every other magazines, I'm guessing their budget per month is in the $12,000-$20,000 range. Maybe small beans compared to Mackie....but it's still in the elite 1% compared to other companies. Crane Song's budget is no where near that. So are you saying that $100,000 up to possibly $200,000 or more a year in advertising is not "hype"?

And if 20 employees is a small company, what does 5 employees make a company? You're entitled to your opinions, whether they make logical sense or not. Just because a facility that has $7 million worth of gear and realestate prefers an Apogee makes your opinion "informed" and Brad's or mine's (or anybody else that like anything other than Apogee) less "informed"? Does it take a $7 million facility to make a top shelf audiophile release?What if there is a $10 million studio that prefers Crane Song...I don't think it matters, it takes good gear, a flat room, great musicians and a great engineer. That could easily be encompassed in a one room facility for less than $200,000 including the gear and building.

Let's untangle this before we look like other forums.

If I came down a bit hard on Brad, I apologize.
I respect his opinions. I did not accuse him of the 'cockle doodle doo' stuff that I see in personality driven forums and I hope Brad realizes that.
He's a long time HEDD fan and one of the reasons I checked it out.

Nate - I HAVE lot's of Cranesong gear and like it just fine (speaking of coming down hard).
I patch Flamingos into the SLAM! for acoustic guitars and it's a great, different sound.
Other times the pres in the SLAM! are better or the Trak2 pres work better. Whatever gets the job done.
My point (regardless of your perception of the ad. budget) is that Apogee is a small company. There are small companies that suck and big companies (Manley Labs) that make great products. I think it's an unfair depiction of Apogee to judge them by the size of their ad. budget. They just released a revolutionary clock that eliminates PLLs. I admire that kind of breakthrough while dodging the Digi bullet.
With regards to the rest of your post, maybe you didn't read mine. I was very careful to make sure that my opinion did not deserve any more merit than Brad's. (because it doesn't). I made it clear that this was an opinion.
I think the folks who post here, do it with the best of intentions and I also think that people deserve to hear both sides. My opinion (having lot's of experience but no more than Brad's, with converters) is that the Trak2 is every bit as good as the HEDD. The fact that the Trak2 costs more and offers more features is just another factor to consider. I just saw this thread becoming an 'Apogee bash'so I put on my Purple Pajamas and weighed in. Nothing more.
I'm not sure about your numerical extrapolation
translating to some sort of theory but I'm in complete agreement that fabulous recordings can come out of small, well equipped places. Probably like yours and mine.

One more thing, the reason I hang here is because I like the other folks who hang here. That would include you and Brad so hopefully that's that. I mean no disrespect and hopefully get none.
I'll go shovel snow (9 more inches) and continue to try and make my PBS composer's deadline and I hope you guys are busy doing what we all love to do - make music.

Have a great day,
chap

I also think that I deserve a Merit Badge for using the word 'opinion' the most in a single post.

Nathan,

To be fair, you have absolutely no idea what Apogee's ad budget is or how much Apogee pays for an ad. Additionally, your claims that Apogee advertises every month in Mix, EQ or any magazine for that matter are also incorrect.

Well thats "told 'im"!



Hi Max!

No, but I do know approximately how much a full page issue in Mix and EQ mag cost...

Quote:

Additionally, your claims that Apogee advertises every month in Mix, EQ or any magazine for that matter are also incorrect.

Wait, so you buy intermittent full page ads in Mix and EQ instead of smaller ads on a consistent basis? I'll have to take a looksee...I based my comments on a sample of 5 mags that I pulled out of the stack. BTW this has nothing to do with Apogee in particular Max, the point is this is a forum about sharing ideas and opinions in light of openmindedness. Dragging this out is OT from what I was trying to get at.

Chap apologized, sorry if I came off brash or was out of line, let's just end it and not turn this into an PSW circus okee dokee?

While I understand your assertions have little to do with the thread topic, you have drawn a false characterization of Apogee Electronics with absolutely no credible evidence to substantiate your claims.

My suggestion is that you stick to the facts and leave the impeachable rhetoric out of your postings.

As a first time poster, I will have to keep it clean - gotta build a rep for myself.

That being said...

I am sick and tired of people playing out their personal agendas on these boards. This should be a resource for friendly opinions. I may ask which mic pre sounds good with xyz microphone. I may get four different answers. At which point, it is my responsiblity to listen to the suggestions and decide for myself. I don't understand why people feel it is necessary to beat people up or work themselves into a manic frenzy trying to get everyone to share their view.

The fact is, the HEDD sounds great. The Apogee sounds great. Have a listen, compare feature set and price point and buy the one that works best for you.

My measly 2 cents

Kaiser

lot of good info here. How 'bout those Red Sox?
cheers,
chap

I feel bad for contributing to this thread because it is really off track. The thing I like about Gearslutz over Prorec, DUC, and a couple others is the fact that most people can express an opinion and no one jumps down their throat to defend the "other side."

This thread just joined the ranks of the other forums.

As "jslator" said, it is implied when someone makes a statement about their preference, it is THEIR opinion. Most of us have been around in life, let alone this business to understand that when it comes to art IN ANY FORM, it is opinion.

Brad stated that his opinion was that HEDD was better than Apogee. It would have been acceptable for chap to jump in and say, "you know, I've worked with the follow, xxx, yyy, etc and I really believe that the Trak2 is better."

Instead the gloves get put on and we end up with a wasted thread. Nevertheless, I appreciate chaps final attitude AND his opinion. I just hope that threads like this don't keep people from stating their opinion because they may have to put the gloves on and defend themselves.

Gearslutz is a great place where experienced engineers and producers contribute and provide good food for those of us that are still feeding from the bottle.

This is just my opinion.

here here!!! Well said...

Nice. Let me try my hand at this game.

I have auditioned more than a few 2-channel converters over the past few months and I must say that I believe the Crane Song to be one of the most overrated converters on the market today. I am pretty sure based on your comments that you have never heard the Trak2. If you have, I sincerely doubt you gave it an objective listen.

The Crane Song sounds good, but in direct blind listening comparisons to the Apogee Trak2, I found the Crane Song lacking.

For comparisons sake, I thought the Benchmark DAC-1 was better than the D/A on the Crane Song, and the D/A on the Trak2 and the Apogee DA16 to be better than both of those units.

The Trak2 is hands down the best mic pre A/D D/A converter box I have ever heard. The mic pres alone are worth the money. I like the Trak2 remote functions. The fact that I can connect it direct to my Mix system, optically to a 001 or natively with Firewire is also a big plus.

Ultimately the main reaon I picked the Trak2 over the HEDD was the sound. The Trak2 is by far the best sounding box I have heard to date and I have heard most of them.

Like it or not, Brad, Jim is right. The Apogees are still the best.

As for the AD-16, I have not compared it directly to the Crane Song, but have heard it in combination with the DA16 and find it to be a very transparent converter, more so than the AD8000SE, but definitely simlar in quality.

BTW Nathan, I just finished looking through this months Mix magazine. There is no Apogee add, although one of the features props up the AD8000s nicely.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think the idea is which is better, but which works better on certain things.

The Trac 2 and the Hedd 192 each have their own strengths and weaknesses(the Hedd adds more "air" for live recordings while the Trac 2 seems to work better on synth/rock stuff that needs more "euphonic lows").

At times I like both, at other times I can't stand either.

I wouldn't consider each very neutral(I leave that for the Prism/Lavry/DB Tech/Meitner).


I think its time for Lynn Fuston's A/D CD.

All I can say is this - I am sorry that a thread I was initally involved in has turned into a 'steak-swinging contest'. I simply stated my opinion based on my experiences, and we turned it into this.

Everything said on these forums is basically just opinion, folks. I apologize that my opinion has stirred such a response.

"Like it or not, Brad, Jim is right. The Apogees are still the best."

Hey, I thought we agreed to keep things in the realm of opiniondome?

Anyway, I haven't tried out that particular Apogee unit and maybe it is time to. The crane song has a very particular sound (that I love) so it's not hard for me to imagine another ADC that sounds great and very different. It'd sure be great to have more options in addition to my Spider. Something like a SLAM! or Trak2 would be great. Personally, I'm happy the way my rig is now,but that doesn't mean I wouldn't check those two units out. If they win me over, so be it =)

allright, I admit that I'm an insomniac. Last night, this thread crossed my mind.
It crossed my mind in a good way. We have this cool place to hang out with other people who are passionate about their work and gear. This thread may have become a bit heated but it all got resolved and there were no personal insults hurled
and it gave me lots of food for thought.

I think it's great that Brad and Nate have high regard for a product that makes their work better.
I feel the same way about the stuff I use.
I think it's great that they can air their views and we can all weigh in. Go Brad and Nate!

I was thinking about this year for me: national adverts and TV shows., recording with a Rolling Stone, mixing a Billboard number 7, playing with Les Paul (and having him give me a signed Les Paul while calling me a bad, a##ed, mother f*(*&(*er), and I can't help but think we're all lucky bastards to be doing what we love everyday. We even get together in the virtual 'clubhouse' and get to talk about it.
I don't know about you guys (or girls) but my wife sure isn't interested in talking about the merits of converters. Bottom line for me is that this was a very cool thread for unintended reasons and I tip my hat and thank the participants.
For those about to rock.......
chap

of course, that's just my opinion.
cheers,
chap

Chap, you listen to me you little...

hehe

Well said. It's why I hang here. Jules has a built a great place that doesn't attract the kind of rubbish found on most other forums (my PSW forum is free of it as well). And thankfully, it apperas that we are all mature enough to behave accordingly.

Thanks, Chap. I mean, you're wrong, but I'll let it slide this time...

(hehe, kidding)

Great post, chap! You're right on the money. This is a great board. The fact that a guy like me, a microscopic cog in the audio wheel can interact with some of the guys on this forum and actually feel like I might contribute something is one of the main reasons I post here. So far, this is the best forum I've ever participated in! Thanks everyone for making this such a cool place to 'hang out'