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ToneLux Summing Rig advice... (roundbadge!!)
Old 15th July 2008
  #1
Gear Nut
 
JohnnyTonk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
ToneLux Summing Rig advice... (roundbadge!!)

Hey guys..

i am looking at getting a tonelux rig for summing from PTHD using my current outboard as inserts.. LA2a..MC77 etc...

I also want to get some of their pre's and eq's...

can you guys give me some advice on the best config for this setup..which modules etc...

i have only been ITB up til now... so i have no patchbay as of yet...

Thanks for any help..

JT
Old 15th July 2008
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Paul Wolff Designs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTonk ➑️
Hey guys..

i am looking at getting a tonelux rig for summing from PTHD using my current outboard as inserts.. LA2a..MC77 etc...

I also want to get some of their pre's and eq's...

can you guys give me some advice on the best config for this setup..which modules etc...

i have only been ITB up til now... so i have no patchbay as of yet...

Thanks for any help..

JT
Well, here is what I would do:

Decide if you want just simple summing (FX2/FX2+/TR8, TR8+) with levels and panners or more complex summing with standard input modules like a console. These would include the MX2 and the MX5.1

SIMPLE:

The FX2 allows 2 channels per module and can be assigned internally to any of 16 busses so you can have sub mixes within the same rack. 6) FX2 and 2) FX2+ take up 8 slots and give you 16 inputs. The "+" modules have the summing amps in them, one is required for each bus. The FX2 can only use faders for the masters(FX2+). Full up on the level pot is unity gain. Each channel has a MUTE switch that pulsates to the level coming in (GREEN) when on.

The TR8 allows for bussing to 8 busses, and can be an input module with a fader. It's great for mixing with groups or surround. 1 input per channel. 8) modules would be 8) channels. The first 8) channels would need to be TR8+ modules for the summing amps. After that, any additional would be TR8s. TR8s can be configured to have a fader for the channel OR the master. There is a choice of full up = unity or full up = +12 dB of gain. The TR8 also has a level/pan and a direct out.

MORE COMPLEX:

MX2 modules allow for INSERTS, STEREO BUS, SOLO, PFL, 4) SENDS, External fader and DIRECT OUT Phase flip Level and Pan. Each channel has a MUTE switch that pulsates to the level coming in (GREEN) when on. The MX2 has a -2 dBu direct out that is unbalanced, which is the most popular. The MX2D has a balanced transformer direct out at a level of +4dBu. Most get 4) of the D's and the rest regular. The Ds add some fatness to the direct out, but makes no effect on anything else.

The MX5.1 is a real surround (LCR, LR, SL, SR) with panning that can pan through the center, front to rear and rear for a complete 3D pan. It has only 2 sends. All other features are the same as the MX2.

Both systems need a master summer, the full featured one is the SM2, a simpler way is to use the FX2+. See the web site for all the variations.

Let me know if there are more questions.

Paul
Old 15th July 2008 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Talk about customer servicethumbsup
After you sort out your T-Lux configuration with Paul, you might wanna talk to Chris over at Redco about your patchbay situation
Redco Audio
Don't mess with the cheap stuff.
Do it right once and your done
Get a diagram going of how you want the routing setup ,etc
I highly recommend the Audio Accessories or Redco bays..Rock solid

Also I highly recommend going the MX2 route.
The phase buttons alone are worth the price of admission

The EQ's are KILLER.superflexible and musical.
get as many as you can afford.you won't regret it.

Sounds like your gonna have an awesome rig
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
What these Guys said!
My mixer arrives anyday now and I can't wait. heh
Paul G
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #5
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Chris's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Is there like a flow chart of how the a summing set up would work? I'm always kind of confused when it comes to a full set up.
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #6
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G ➑️
What these Guys said!
My mixer arrives anyday now and I can't wait. heh
Paul G
So did you go with MX2's of FX2's?
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Nut
 
JohnnyTonk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Whats the turnaround on a 16 module rig paul??
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #8
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Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTonk ➑️
Whats the turnaround on a 16 module rig paul??
Hi Johnny,
It's been about a month, but that included a holiday and a flood.
Cheers
Paul
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #9
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Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➑️
So did you go with MX2's of FX2's?
Hey Tony, In the end I went with 2 V racks. 1 with 16 MX2's with the transformer option and the second rack has 4 FX2+'s, 4 FX2's and 4 TR8's with a CR2 and an SM2.
Cheers
Paul G
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #10
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G ➑️
Hey Tony, In the end I went with 2 V racks. 1 with 16 MX2's with the transformer option and the second rack has 4 FX2+'s, 4 FX2's and 4 TR8's with a CR2 and an SM2.
Cheers
Paul G
Very nice! Let us know how your diggin' it.
I have the V-rack with 2 MP1a's and I am thinking about getting some MX2's and a SM2.

I tried the demo rack over 18 months ago and fell in love with the sound.
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Man I tells ya - when ever I try to configure a system I go cross eyed.

I would love to buy a Tonelux rig but I don't have a background in using a pro level desk let alone designing one.

I have wants such as tracking a vocal into a compressor via a fader.

Creating stems via the tonelux rig to build my mix up in layers ie with the drums being processes into parallel busses etc and through the faders back into the daw and to mix with a mix bus comp on the monitor path. Then on to synths and back etc like a composit building up. etc.

Paul IMO lot more people would buy into tonelux if you had working systems up on your site designed to give the buyer working scenarios they would want to buy.

Spell it out for us. Configure some rigs to give us the idea because it's like looking at a dead body and being asked to put all the parts back inside! Where does one begin?

Best,
cortisol
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➑️
Very nice! Let us know how your diggin' it.
I have the V-rack with 2 MP1a's and I am thinking about getting some MX2's and a SM2.

I tried the demo rack over 18 months ago and fell in love with the sound.
Thanks, will keep you posted on progress. I adore the Tonelux sound so I'm looking forward to expanding my rig in the future.
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Nut
 
JohnnyTonk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cortisol ➑️
Man I tells ya - when ever I try to configure a system I go cross eyed.

I would love to buy a Tonelux rig but I don't have a background in using a pro level desk let alone designing one.

I have wants such as tracking a vocal into a compressor via a fader.

Creating stems via the tonelux rig to build my mix up in layers ie with the drums being processes into parallel busses etc and through the faders back into the daw and to mix with a mix bus comp on the monitor path. Then on to synths and back etc like a composit building up. etc.

Paul IMO lot more people would buy into tonelux if you had working systems up on your site designed to give the buyer working scenarios they would want to buy.

Spell it out for us. Configure some rigs to give us the idea because it's like looking at a dead body and being asked to put all the parts back inside! Where does one begin?

Best,
cortisol
2nd!
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #14
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd ➑️

I tried the demo rack over 18 months ago and fell in love with the sound.
Could some explain the sound.. Api'ish, Neve'ish Helios'ish - has it's own sound etc..

I too am interested...
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cortisol ➑️
Man I tells ya - when ever I try to configure a system I go cross eyed.

I would love to buy a Tonelux rig but I don't have a background in using a pro level desk let alone designing one.

I have wants such as tracking a vocal into a compressor via a fader.

Creating stems via the tonelux rig to build my mix up in layers ie with the drums being processes into parallel busses etc and through the faders back into the daw and to mix with a mix bus comp on the monitor path. Then on to synths and back etc like a composit building up. etc.

Paul IMO lot more people would buy into tonelux if you had working systems up on your site designed to give the buyer working scenarios they would want to buy.

Spell it out for us. Configure some rigs to give us the idea because it's like looking at a dead body and being asked to put all the parts back inside! Where does one begin?

Best,
cortisol
I agree, some off the shelf options would be good too but the real beauty is the flexibility and the potential for growth.
Once the headache passes and you get over the learning curve it is a great way of getting exactly what you need for your unique workflow.
Paul W has been super helpful in tailoring my set up and when you get your head round the signal flow you'll wonder why you were ever confused.
Plus the whole dsub patching thing is a godsend. I have redco and AA minishortis and the build quality is like milspec with no soldering.
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
The sound is unique to Tonelux.
It does have that punch similar to what you expect from API but it's a more extended top and bottom. I find they have a more musical detail esp in the mid range. I've been using my rig for about 2 yrs now and can't imagine mixing thru anything else.

You simply can't go wrong with a Tonleux rig.
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul EQ ➑️
Could some explain the sound.. Api'ish, Neve'ish Helios'ish - has it's own sound etc..

I too am interested...
I think the sound is the best of all worlds.
It is punchy like api (but not so middly), big like classic neve but also a bit more hifi in a really exciting way.
You should speak to Kevin at Unity Audio to arrange a demo. You really need to here the splendour for yourself.
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #18
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G ➑️
You should speak to Kevin at Unity Audio to arrange a demo. You really need to here the splendour for yourself.
Thanks for info !

I've dealt with Unity before (real nice people) - i didn't realise they sold Tonelux - that's excellent news.
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #19
VIP
 
mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I had a Tonelux rack for summing here at WireWorld, sounded awesome. Can't really compare the sound to anything, it's very clear and open without noticeable color. High on my list. thumbsupthumbsup
Old 16th July 2008 | Show parent
  #20
Deleted User
Guest
ToneLux Summing Rig advice... (roundbadge!!)

Definitely need some pre-fab rigs on the website and diagrams explaining signal flow. I've been eye'ing the speck xtramix and trying to figure out how to accomplish something similar with Tonelux ; P

This is a great way to simplify complexity:
http://www.speckelectronics.com/pdf/...lication_1.pdf

Anyone know what modules to use for something similar? With even half the inputs, but similar FX bussing and master section with headphones.
Old 17th July 2008 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Agreed on routing diagrams

It sure would be cool to better understand Paul's concepts with more literature. I was digging on his Tonelux Web site and thought looking at the actual hardware pages and jumper options may shed light. It comes down to sends and how to better use his rack routing with (I'm guessing) extra send capabilities with FX2 units? Four sends on the MX2 are nice, but that just gets you to 4 items, what if you have 4 reverbs, 8 limiters, 8 eqs, 6 expanders, etc. That's my misunderstandings so far with the Tonelux routing. A patchbay seems to be a simpler option (to a non-pro like me especially) but getting into his routing and racks could ultimately provide a cleaner path with less cables etc.
Old 17th July 2008 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Eqs, compressors and expanders usually are patched thru the indv MX2 inserts. If you want to send mutilple chs to a compressor you buy some buss modules.
Keep the aux sends for fx and cue mixes. Each MX2 has direct outs so I use those for addittional indv fx sends.
If you think of the Tonelux design in terms of signal flow it's much easier to understand. Some of the Dsub wiring can be a little confusing but Paul supplies plenty of diagrams to take care of that.
Old 17th July 2008 | Show parent
  #23
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Gravity8058's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Is it still the case (on the MX2) that the aux sends can be set from pre-fader to post only by opening up the module?
Old 18th July 2008 | Show parent
  #24
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Paul Wolff Designs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
You are all "the man"

Tony, Kelly, Michael, RoundB, you are all "the man", and now we add a new "man" Paul G.

The story goes like this:

We (my family) went on a well deserved vacation with a customer turned great friend and his family, to St Lucia in the West Indies. We had the greatest time, saw a lot of friends (did a few Jazz Festivals down there) and came back, opened the basement door only to hear the ocean again... The water feed to the outdoor sprinkler system split and started to fill the basement with water. Lucky for us, the sump pump was right there, and through a small 2" openening, kept the water from getting higher that an inch in the basement. Took a week of work to dry it out, 7 dryer fans and 3 de-humidifiers, scrapped carpet and time. Poor Paul_G, he had to wait a bit, but his boner is on it's way.



It's hard to do a block diagram, as there are many combos that you need to consider. As in the first post, I would suggest the following:

Draw up a flow of what you will need for Tracking.

Draw up a flow of what you would need for Overdubs.

Draw up a flow of what you need for mixing.

Draw it your own way, it doesn't need to be complex.

Then try to combine the 3 scenarios into one flow chart. You can use mix inputs for monitoring, Bus assigns can be used for tracking groups of drums, ODs for sub mixes of mics and mixing for doing parallel compression. The best thing is to contact Vintage King, as they have a staff that can walk you through anything.

It is complicated in the sense that you now have to "design" a console of sorts, but they did the same in the 60's, when no one knew what to do either. The beauty of it is that you can get exactly what you need without buying blanks or unfilled spaces or bulk.

Paul
Old 18th July 2008 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Doug, yes you set the auxes pre/post fader with a jumper. I have 1/2 pre and 3/4 post. Works out great.
Old 18th July 2008 | Show parent
  #26
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Chris's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm mostly confused about the + modules that have a summing amp in them. Does that mean it's like a mono bus? And you set up the send to that bus via jumpers? So 8 FX2+ modules would give you 16 inputs and 8 "busses" to sum to?
Old 18th July 2008 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
You can use the FX2+ for busses. I have a SM2 master module but could use 2 FX2+s for master L & R if I had a smaller rig.
Old 18th July 2008 | Show parent
  #28
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Paul Wolff Designs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris ➑️
I'm mostly confused about the + modules that have a summing amp in them. Does that mean it's like a mono bus? And you set up the send to that bus via jumpers? So 8 FX2+ modules would give you 16 inputs and 8 "busses" to sum to?
No, the summing amps at the top have to be treated as a separate circuit. Just pretend that they are "renting" the blank space above what ever module they are located on.

They can access any bus and be the output. There are 16 available busses in each Vrack, and if the racks are not linked, they can do different things in each rack:

SEND 6 (send 2 for the MX5.1 module)
SEND 5 (send 1 for the MX5.1 module)
SEND 4 (send 4 for the MX2 module)
SEND 3 (send 3 for the MX2 module)
SEND 2 (send 2 for the MX2 module)
SEND 1 (send 1 for the MX2 module)
STR (stereo right)
STL (stereo left)
RR (surround right rear)
RL (surround left rear)
C (surround center)
FR (surround right front)
FL (surround left front)
SR (solo right)
SL (solo left)
PFL (solo pfl)

These are labeled only for reference, except with the MX2 and MX5.1, which have their stereo and surround busses assigned to the designated busses.

If you were to use the TR8 module, in a rack of it's own, you would assign them (internal jumper wires, see the web site) to any busses you want. If you want them to link to 6 busses and then 7/8 to the stereo bus, then you would assign the busses unused busses except 7/8, which would be plugged into the STL and STR jumps.

It seems complicated, but you aren't expected to do it yourself.
Old 18th July 2008 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge ➑️
Talk about customer servicethumbsup
That's just Paul's passion for audio showing. Many years ago I was reworking an old API console for a client. First time I had ever worked on one... Paul was incredibly helpful and very generous with his time. You'll be in good hands.

Ken Paul
Kengineering
Old 19th July 2008 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneLux ➑️
Tony, Kelly, Michael, RoundB, you are all "the man", and now we add a new "man" Paul G.

Paul
Thanks Paul I am indeed honored but when do I graduate to getting a "the" in front of "man"? heh

Seriously though, a big thanks to RoundBadge, and the other Tonelux Gearslutz who steered me towards the system and have generously given their time to offer advice.

Thanks to you too Paul for all your help and support.

I am confident in the knowledge I have the best sounding mix solution available for our stuff and it gives me a very warm feeling.

Cheers

Paul G
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