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Another Monitor Thread
Old 18th January 2003
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
rlg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Another Monitor Thread

Sorry to inflict this on everyone, but it's high time to improve the monitoring situation in my studio. And while the only reasonable answers to the forthcoming inquiry will be "try them in your your studio on the music you record, and then decide", unfortunately, my geographical location (Riga) means that this type of comparison shopping is only possible with BLUE mics. I have, however, contacted the manufacturers of the following monitors, and will be auditioning them in various European cities this year, but not in my studio and not on the same days.

So, in addition to the listening that I will be doing by myself, I would also be very interested in hearing any thoughts on the following monitors from anybody who has tried them, and what you thought was positive or negative about them:

Adam S2.5-A
Adam S3-A
Dynaudio BM15a
Dynaudio Air15
Dynaudio Air20
Emes Blue HR
Klein & Hummel O 300 D
Quested 2108
Quested 2205

This is not a "which would be the best for me" question, since oΓ²ly I'll be able to answer that, and I will be listening to all of these monitors myself. I'm just interested in subjective comments like "yeah, I tried the xxxs, but their lows were too indistinct for my recordings of Bulgarian tuba quartets", or "everything I mix on the yyys translates to my mother-in-law's clock radio perfectly" or "everything sounds great when mixing on the zzzs, but you'd have to be insanely drunk to even consider mastering on them".

Just for the record, the music that gets recorded in my studio may at any time contain combinations of acoustic & electric guitars, hand percussion, real piano, choral voices, sampled drums, loops, noises & synths, real synths, softsynths, electric & acoustic bass, rock/pop vocals and harp (the big stringed instrument, not a harmonica). The monitors would be used for tracking & mixing and, if necessary, amateurish mastering, the control/tracking room is about 30 square meters.

Thanks in advance to anybody who chooses to share their thoughts,

rlg
Old 19th January 2003
  #2
Lives for gear
 
doug_hti's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I listened to ADAM at NAMM, both when it was noisy and at the end of a day when it was quieter. Sure they weren't interacting within a room, but the imaging on the 2.5s was AMAZING to my ears....I Will DEFINATELY buy a pair of them when i upgrade. I may go for the S2As rather than the 2.5s because of cost, and I have a smaller room, but if you can go for the 2.5s, then they seem worth it. I've heard Dynaudio's too...
Old 19th January 2003
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I have 5 Adam S3A's and the Adam sub for surround. For stereo, I use 2 S3A's and no sub. Adams are like a cross between mastering speakers and studio monitors. They reveal details in a mix you never knew were there, and any dynamic inconsistancies leap out like a sore thumb. At the same time, you can track on them all day and not get tired. They are powerful, (3) 150 watt amps in each S3A, and they sound the same at any volume level. And, as M Wagener says, "they don't seem to care about the room".


Referencing on the boombox and in the car?
A thing of the past.

I don't even think about it anymore - If it sounds right on the Adams, it sounds right to the world.
Old 19th January 2003
  #4
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Copus
I have 5 Adam S3A's and the Adam sub for surround.
thats because you ****ing SUCK!!! im kidding. that sounds simply amazing. i played at micheals with 5 S3-A's and OMFG!!! i wish i could afford 3 more myself. i cant tell you dick about the 2/2.5's, i like my 3's and have heard the 4C's... wait, i have heard the S2's, albiet drunk as hell. they were good too, but i liked my 3's more. i would have to hear the 4C's with better source material though i think i would have to tweak them out to get fully to my liking.

**** the Emes all together.

dave G likes the K&H's and tried out the ADAMs... he could probably fill you in on the differences.

i do dig the ADAMs though... i'd personally go with the 3's over the 2/2.5's.
Old 19th January 2003
  #5
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I've listened to all the speakers you've listed except the Ermes(or the Owl looking speakers).

In my opinion they are all ok.

Personally I think the ADAM's are overpriced for what they are. They take a little to get used to(the tweeter is their "interpretation" of the Oskar Heil diaphragm). If you've ever heard a pair of Heil speakers, compared to the ADAMs it makes them look and sound like home speakers(ugly one's at that). I am sure once you get used to the tweeter, they are can be useful. I wouldn't use them for mastering though.


Dynaudio's problem is that they have too many speakers right now. Their best designs are their audiophile speakers, problem is not a lot of sound guys know this so they buy what their local recording audio guy carries.

The Air speakers are a terrific idea(and they sound pretty good), but the problem is the price. I think in the future they will probably become the defacto surround standard. There are better sounding Dynaudio speakers being made(check out the Evidence,Confidence or even the little 1.3 MKSE 2 small monitor) but for what it is(not the first mind you Meridian has been doing this for years) its a nice monitor.

The BM15's I thought was a hit or miss situation. If you settle on these, then buy the passives and get yourself a nice amp(ML,Krell,Aragon,Classe,ElectroA) cause Dyna's speakers need/love power. They also have a certain "burn in"period. Would never consider for mastering.

I already posted earlier about the Questeds. If I were you check out the VS3208. For a small monitor-H108 passive(and maybe a sub). Some mastering guys here in the states use this combo.

By the way it maybe more beneficial for you to have multiple monitors for your situation. I don't think its a great idea to track/mix and master on the same speakers.

Just an opinion.
Old 19th January 2003
  #6
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
If you've ever heard a pair of Heil speakers, compared to the ADAMs it makes them look and sound like home speakers(ugly one's at that).
um, are you sure you dont have that backwards? the oskar's are BUTT ugly. and i dont know about how much "interpretation" there is between the folded designs of the two...
Old 19th January 2003
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
rlg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks a lot for the input so far, it seems that on this and other monitor threads, the Adams are responsible for the strongest emotions. By my reckoning, about 80% strongly for, and 20% strongly against, with no one indifferent on gearslutz, prosoundweb or rec.audio.pro. I guess they're doing something right.

Regarding the Emes, I wasn't even considering the Owl speakers; the other speakers Emes sell look "normal".

Thanx again, and hoping for even more input,

rlg
Old 19th January 2003
  #8
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
um, are you sure you dont have that backwards? the oskar's are BUTT ugly. and i dont know about how much "interpretation" there is between the folded designs of the two...
Hey Alpha,

Yeah the Oskar speakers maybe different looking, but the ADAM's for the price could have been designed better.

Yeah I am sure about the Heil tweeter, I spoke to the ADAM guys about it.
Old 19th January 2003
  #9
Lives for gear
 
matucha's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I'm considering ADAMs too... (my current monitoring is event20/20p ;-( ), however you are talking ADAMs are overpriced... so what do you suggest to buy instead? ;-)

I'm hearing lot of good things about Adams, but I have no chance to listen to them... unless I'll travel abroad. I can get to hear Mackies, Genelecs, Emes or Dynaudio here in the Czech Republic. Any suggestions in 2000euro per speaker class?
Old 19th January 2003
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
rlg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Oh, I almost forgot. Does anybody also have any thoughts on the Tannoy Ellipses?

rlg
Old 19th January 2003
  #11
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Yeah the Oskar speakers maybe different looking, but the ADAM's for the price could have been designed better.
what part of the design? which models? the cabinets are very well built.... no odd resonances produced with cheap design. the drivers are of good quality. and 3x 150W amps on my S3-A's isnt exactly underpowered... with a pretty substantial power supply [have you taken the ADAMs apart to inspect the build quality? i have]

the prices arent that unreasonable either.... maybe on the top end, but up to the S3-A's they arent.
Old 19th January 2003
  #12
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by rlg
Oh, I almost forgot. Does anybody also have any thoughts on the Tannoy Ellipses?

rlg
The pair I heard were absolutely horrible. The local rep told me later that that pair were 'voiced for the English market', but they sounded much worse than either my Tannoy 6.5's or that little pair of KRK's that are so small. Perhaps they'll end up being OL, but based on what I heard, I'd run from them,
Old 19th January 2003
  #13
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
wait, i have heard the S2's, albiet drunk as hell. they were good too, but i liked my 3's more.
You'll have to hook me up with your source for Lambic, B, is that **** 11% alcohol or what?...we can only get dfegad corn moonshine down here in FL. heh
Old 20th January 2003
  #14
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by matucha
Any suggestions in 2000euro per speaker class?
If you have a console to set them on, I'd go with NS10s on the meter bridge with a Bryston 4B or C-Audio RA2001 amplifier behind them.

Old 20th January 2003
  #15
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
I just got a pair of S3As after selling my BM15/Muse power amp.
I decided to keep them after mixing some stuff that sounded pretty bad to
start with.
What people say about the translation appears to be true.
That's a big deal for the ones that are musicians and not engineers (like myself) and don't have like...10 or 20 years of mixing experience behind.
It's also true that the ADAMs are VERY unforgiving (=neutral???).
Some music that sounded really good on the BM15s seems like no big deal
on the ADAMs, so probably they are not as much "fun" as the Dynaudios,
but if the music I do translates, that's all I care about.
And,
I don't think they are cheap either,especially when I read that Clearmountain
gets the results he gets on NS10s (AND the ****load of gear he probably has of course!).

(just my 0.02 cents)
Old 20th January 2003
  #16
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by NathanEldred
You'll have to hook me up with your source for Lambic, B, is that **** 11% alcohol or what?...we can only get dfegad corn moonshine down here in FL. heh
i got all that stuff in tampa... some drive through beer store [hows that for drinkin and driving?]... most places there carry the belgians. i cant remember what i brought over but damn by the end of the night... glad i wasnt driving anywhere. hell, even at 10am the next day was a PITA to drive. big hangover.

drank the corsendonk abbey brown ales i smuggled back from florida the other night. yummy. those are 7.5% [not too much.. but too much to sell here in cackalacki]
Old 20th January 2003
  #17
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Rig, the ADAM's are great speakers. There are few brands you could dump off of your list that are not in the same class in my opinion.

But I would add the Earthworks 6.2's as a strong contender and worth checking out.

Lee
Old 20th January 2003
  #18
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
what part of the design? which models? the cabinets are very well built.... no odd resonances produced with cheap design. the drivers are of good quality. and 3x 150W amps on my S3-A's isnt exactly underpowered... with a pretty substantial power supply [have you taken the ADAMs apart to inspect the build quality? i have]

the prices arent that unreasonable either.... maybe on the top end, but up to the S3-A's they arent.
Hey Alpha,

Before I answer your question i like to go on record saying that i think what the ADAM guys are doing is a noble thing trying to bring audiophile technology to the studio masses(its about time!!).

Also I am very partial to passive speakers(I don't think I've ever heard an active speaker I liked...well the only one I've encountered is the old ATC SCM20P(no longer in production).

That being said, over the last eight months in me trying to help my partner(who is both a Mastering Engineer and a Audiophile dealer) setup a new mastering studio, I've had the privelege to listen to almost every speaker under the sun(both full speakers and small monitors). He being a audiophile dealer can get any speaker he chooses to check out(this week we checked out the new Sequerra monitors, next is probably the Legacy).

We had the ADAM's in not too long ago(SC2,3A,4A and column) for an evaluation. Now I was really hoping these were the real deal(since so many guys here like them and I am always looking for new monitors). At first we gave them every chance we could(we tried different positions,stands,cables) but there was just something about them that was a little weird. Like I said earlier, the layout of the 3A is weird(sometimes they recommend a horizontal position) but that makes them weirder. I think to design a great 2 way is difficult and a 3 way is almost impossible. The tweeters while ribbons, sound weird mixed with Kevlar woofers(I also am not a big fan of synthetic woofers). It makes the sound almost too seperated. The tweeters have a humongous sweet spot(again a preference thing). Also you need a good distance from the console(but not too far, its weird not truly a midfield but too solid for a nearfield).

Of all the ADAM speakers we tried, we had the greatest success with the column(we had a hell of a time finding the right amp, but when we did it sounded sweet). Its a vertical floor standing hifi speaker and the sound seemed to sound more solid as a whole. (Its also more expensive).

I think that part of the problem with powered monitors(you are stuck with their amplifier) and you can't really change the signature(unless you use the EQ and that to me is a joke in itself...but that's another topic). Also there are the built in protection limiters(some are transparent others aren't). Also for $4400 they coulda put in a nicer looking cabinet.

Again speaker preference is highly subjective(me and my partner rarely agree on anything). Anyone that goes out and buys a speaker based on someone else's opinion is asking for trouble. I still mix on mainly NS10's(with Tannoys,Questeds,Dunlavy and Dynaudio thrown in). They translate well for me and I am sure the ADAM monitors are doing the same for others here on this forum.
Old 20th January 2003
  #19
rll
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
I would add Pro Ac's to the list. Highly underated, but we love them, and there are quite a few pair here in NYC. The most natural, unhyped monitors I've found. Just another opinion...

rll
Old 20th January 2003
  #20
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
we must vastly differ in opinion then.. because if a driver isnt synthetic [pulp] i DONT like it. they dont have the rigidity and fail under pressure. they are not accurate in the least providing the listener with distortion beyond acceptable amounts.... even for home listening. i dont know of too many high end speakers that arent synthetic.

i also forgot that you must of gotten the new cabinet "look"... which IMO as well, is not as nice as the pair that i own, which look VERY nice. i dont know why they changed the covering/texture... maybe a price issue.

the S3-A's sound most accurate with imaging standing vertical with the sub ports in the middle. that said, i have mine horizontal at the moment. even though i think they are better vertical. with the S4 columns, i found the midrange to be too pronounced.

i can understand how you like to mix and match amps. if i were going to get the S4C's i would certainly get the passive version [yes, they have those as well] and have some nice amps powering them for colour [kinda partial to Audio Research myself]... but im not looking to change the signature for in my CR. home listening would be different.

as for the protection limiters... there are thermal breakers and input breakers... both shut the speakers down [something i have done on MANY occasion until i got the proper amps... i have owned mine for a long time now, now they dont shut down anymore]


and i can understand your opinion of the top end, while taking getting used to is very much worth the payoff as your ears change... typical domes sound weird and harsh after getting used to the ADAMs.


i also am not familiar with the use as a mastering speaker but as a mixing speaker i find the speakers indispensable... so much so that i now use no other speaker i nhe CR to check anymore. i havent the need. when its right on the ADAMs its RIGHT. another thing i noticed with the ADAMs is that [i listened to my ENTIRE collection] is that albums i ONCE thought sounded good no longer sound good.... and when i heard the RIGHT, they sounded wrong in all listening enviroments because now the details i heard on the ADAMs stuck out everywhere. of course albums that sound incredible sound simply amazing on the ADAMs. [i suggest Sparklehorses Its a Wonderful Life... its literally made me lose it on several occasion]
Old 20th January 2003
  #21
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Funny thing is, talking to Klaus the designer / owner of ADAM, he said the LAST thing likely to blow up on ADAM speakers is the tweeters!

Seems they are super robust, a lot different from most other tweeters.. which are usually known as the weak point in monitors that get used loudly..

Old 20th January 2003
  #22
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor


Also I am very partial to passive speakers(I don't think I've ever heard an active speaker I liked...well the only one I've encountered is the old ATC SCM20P(no longer in production).

I tend to agree with you on passive monitors. I think the insistence by some for actives is odd. We spend so much time picking high quality signal chains and then we leave the final link in the chain to some unknown power amp.

Cramming a real power amp in to the back of a speaker has always bothered me. When you look under the hood of a Bryston, Hafler, etc the power supply alone is massive.

The other issue that is often overlooked the quality of introducing additiional active components for the crossover. A high quality passive crossover using point-to-point wiring makes more sense than adding an additional signal path using more components.

Lee
Old 20th January 2003
  #23
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by 20db.com
Rig, the ADAM's are great speakers. There are few brands you could dump off of your list that are not in the same class in my opinion.

But I would add the Earthworks 6.2's as a strong contender and worth checking out.

Lee
I would second the suggestion on the Earthworks, definitely worth checking out.
Old 20th January 2003
  #24
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
dave G likes the K&H's and tried out the ADAMs... he could probably fill you in on the differences.
Indeed, I tried both over several weeks here. After adjusting to them a bit, I did feel that the ADAMs presented me with much of what I was after; a broad, detailed and reasonably flat frequency response. To be honest, they worked ok for me, as some test-mixes I did with them sounded good on other playback systems (in other words, they do translate well).

However, I found that the K+H O300D's were (for me) more and better of those same characteristics, and were much more chameleon-like. Stuff through the ADAMs almost always sounds like its coming through ADAMs. While I feel that they're very good monitors, and I understand that this sound is something that can be acclimated to, I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of a "sound" that the K+H's present. Different-sounding records sounded ....well... more differentiated through the K+Hs than through the ADAMs. In addition I was surprised at how much better I could hear things like phase anomalies from overequalization or bad a/d conversion, subtle distortion, gates opening/closing and other details and artifacts through the K+Hs without them being overly bright. ... oh, and the midrange is amazing.... I could ramble... .

Anyway, I think that had I not found the K+H O300's I may have just kept the ADAM S3-A's -- I do think they're good mixing tools. However, I'm a VERY happy guy with these Klein + Hummels and would highly recommend trying them out.

-dave
Old 20th January 2003
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
rlg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
dave,

Interesting post, thanks. So you feel the Klein + Hummels let you hear more of what's happening in your mix -- did you find that they also translate as well as the Adams? And are you using the analog or digital inputs? If you're using the digital connections, do you find that the D/As are up to snuff, or would you be better off with a dedicated D/A converter?

Thanks,

rlg
Old 20th January 2003
  #26
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by rll
I would add Pro Ac's to the list. Highly underated, but we love them, and there are quite a few pair here in NYC. The most natural, unhyped monitors I've found. Just another opinion...

rll

Wow you think ProAcs are unhyped?
(Then you would probably detest my Dunlavy SM1's)heh

Which ones?(Studio 100's,Tablette,SC1,2,3,4)?

I think ProAcs make great sounding monitors for listening to music(they uuse the ATC mid driver by the way). They make music sound wonderful(the best speakeer for listening to Jazz), but I think they make it too good. Don't get me wrong, I love the ProAc 1SC and the 3's, but they are not very truthful sometimes. And they are not really supposed to be either.

When I think unhyped, I think of:Dunalvy,Duntech,Sonus Faber,Gradient and Thiel.

When i think of colored but pleasant:ProAc,ATC,Dynaudio and B&W. Though most speakers now adays are made like these(most speaker designers use the same drivers, I think right now there are 3). To make a custom driver it cost a lot of money, which factors in the cost of the speaker ie ADAM and B&W.

I think 2 monitors to consider are the Eggleston Isabel Speaker(it has the expensive Dynaudio Esotar tweeter not the other cheesy/sizzly one that some speakers manufacturers use and a Morel 6" woofer) and a new comer which totally shocked me when i heard it, totally truthful, the Devore Fidelity Gibbon series. I think John Devore is designing a Pro Audio speaker right now, so you will hear a lot about it in the future.

I think for the guy who posted earlier an excellent compromise is: Smalls- Yamaha NS10's(like Jon suggested) with an excellent amplifier.

Bigs or full range speakers-Gradient Revolution- Revealing,truthful(which is rare on full speakers), No cabinet(so no problems with standing waves) also they are not too bulky and look great. They sound great and you can master on them. It comes as one unit on spikes. It has its own sub(which you can place out of phase real easily by twisting it around to compensate for your room). It is not as picky as other speakers when it comes to amplifiers. The price is right also.

For a midfield or nearfield- You are on your own. This is where preferences and opinions differ. I think something in between the other two, but revealing would be ideal. Also it should be something your clients feel good about when they hear their music on them.

Good luck.
Old 20th January 2003
  #27
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by rlg
dave,

Interesting post, thanks. So you feel the Klein + Hummels let you hear more of what's happening in your mix -- did you find that they also translate as well as the Adams? And are you using the analog or digital inputs? If you're using the digital connections, do you find that the D/As are up to snuff, or would you be better off with a dedicated D/A converter?
rlg,

Indeed, the K+Hs have helped me make mixes that translate very well. I mix more quickly and intuitively with them, and have fewer revision requests from my clients in general. They inspire the confidence that if it sounds good on them, you're done.

As to the i/o, I must admit I haven't really tried the digital inputs yet, but I will, and I may try the C28 FIR monitor controller module with them as well (at some point soon). In the meantime, I'm simply enjoying their clean, transformer-balanced analog inputs and often forget that they have that digital option.

-dave
Old 20th January 2003
  #28
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
For a midfield or nearfield- You are on your own. This is where preferences and opinions differ. I think something in between the other two, but revealing would be ideal. Also it should be something your clients feel good about when they hear their music on them.

Good luck.
We just got in the Sequerra MK 7.7 passive monitors(www.sequerra.com).

They are only $1100( if you speak to Dick himself you maybe able to get them cheaper).

They look like a real contender in this category. Dick Sequerra is a legend in the audiophile business. He is concentrating only on Pro Audio products now. He is making a pre and a ribbon microphone(which are getting rave reviews everywhere).

I'll post some of my findings after I push them tonite.
Old 21st January 2003
  #29
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
I got treated like a leper at the K&H stand last NYC AES. The looked me up and down, scrached their heads, begrudgingly got to their feet and gave the "I've never heard of you" vibe that only A-holes give out at trade fairs where they are SUPPOSED to meet folks they have never met before..

I punted them (and Fairlight) into the AV specialists that havent a CLUE how to deal with music people trash can...



Hang on... I think henchman here on Gearslutz has BOTH K&H and Fairlight gear.. So Hench, you ceaselessly dissin PT type, whats the deal here? Do you HAVE to be "up yourself" to sell this gear or what? Kenny G fans only? Hate music? Anti social? Some sort of twisted hatered of music studios? A love of 14 second jingles over 'songs'?? Passion for black polar necks? Do share with us!

grudge
Old 21st January 2003
  #30
Lives for gear
 
sonic dogg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
and not one vote for genelec....must have become passe in the last year....most of the mastering houses use them...or they did till recently.....heck...ALL of the monitors mentioned sound like gawd.....for me the most important thing is fatigue...if you spend hours listening to mixes at least get something that doesnt wear you out......
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