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Grounding in my studio.
Old 31st December 2002
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
Grounding in my studio.

I am very close to finishing my basement studio yet I've hit a snag with my "grounding scheme".

First, the studio was built before I moved in. The previous owner put some time into this place so I know grounding did not go unnoticed. Every outlet in the studio is grounded with the green wire and they all go to a central location. I have pics of these here: http://www.thomaskay.us/Grounding.html

I have five of the ADC punch patch-bays (military style) and I'm wondering how to ground them. If the outlets are already grounded, it seems that I should not run a common ground from these bays to an existing grounding rod. Wouldn't that risk a ground loop if both the outlets and the bays went to the rod?

I called CTG (in Atlanta) to come out but they are a month behind. I'd appreciate anyone who could help me sort this out.

Thanks,

Thomas
Old 31st December 2002
  #2
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
Okay. I know this isn't an interesting post. But I sure need the help. Anyone?
Old 1st January 2003
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
You may want to try John Klett's forum in the recpit over on prosoundweb.com as well.. he is a guru with this stuff.
Old 1st January 2003
  #4
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
Considering this problem is stopping me in my tracks, I am cross posting it in different forums. I have the question in John's forum as well awaiting further help. I don't want to seem too pushy - and thus not thankful - so I'm just waiting patiently. I thought I might get lucky in the "High End" forum. I guess it's just very specific and not many people have experienced it.
Old 2nd January 2003
  #5
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well, you could always hook everything up and see how it works before you go and run a seperate ground from the bays to the central point. If it makes a lot of noise try grounding one bay before you do the rest.
Old 2nd January 2003
  #6
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As a side note, there is no ground wire running to my ac ground in my studio..
noise free here.
Old 10th January 2003
  #7
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atticus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The owner of our company, Allen Burdick, has written a text called the Clean Audio Instillation Guide, which covers a multitude of audio related thing and covers grounding very well. It is available as a free download on out site at this link:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/pdf/caig.pdf

You will need Acrobat to view it.
Old 10th January 2003
  #8
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I saw you're pictures. It looks like the previous owner correctly ran the individual green ground wires from every duplex outlet to a separate ground buss bar, but it appears that the outlets are not true isolated ground outlets! Usually, an isolated ground outlet would be orange or gray in color and have a green triangle symbol on the front of itself, representing an isolated ground outlet.

The ground buss bar should be connected to a cold water pipe or even better; hammer a 6 foot rod into the ground and connect the buss bar to that with a hug cable. You will need to swap out every duplex outlet in the studio and replace it with the ones I mentioned above. Remember, you got to do this to make it right! The Home Depot in my area has the 20amp version much cheaper then the 15amp version.

Now that you have all your outlets isolated, you should hook up your power to an isolation transformer and UPS... But that's another story all together.

Audio grounding is another story too. You should wire all your equipment with the "Star Grounding" technique. Are you familiar with type of grounding system? Also, don't bond all the audio grounds at your patch bay or ADC panel. Keep them all isolated from each other. Connect each individual audio ground at the console side, and lift all the audio grounds at the ancillary equipment side. That should take care of any potential ground loops.

This is just one way to deal with the AC and audio grounds. I've seen others use similar techniques that yielded the same result. This is just a crude outline on how we did it. Perhaps, we can get more detailed about it, but Allen Burdick's PDF file called the Clean Audio Instillation Guide covers it perfectly.
Old 11th January 2003
  #9
Lives for gear
 
cashewcupcake's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by atticus
The owner of our company, Allen Burdick, has written a text called the Clean Audio Instillation Guide, which covers a multitude of audio related thing and covers grounding very well. It is available as a free download on out site at this link:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/pdf/caig.pdf

You will need Acrobat to view it.
Great document! Thanks for the link.grggt
Old 11th January 2003
  #10
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atticus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
No problem
Old 11th January 2003
  #11
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
Remoteness,

Thanks for the response.

Quote:
but it appears that the outlets are not true isolated ground outlets!
I talked to the previous owner. He said that some of the outlets are ganged and three are isolated.

Quote:
Usually, an isolated ground outlet would be orange or gray in color and have a green triangle symbol on the front of itself, representing an isolated ground outlet.
I can always call an electrician for this as I am lost on this subject.

Quote:
You should wire all your equipment with the "Star Grounding" technique. Are you familiar with type of grounding system? Also, don't bond all the audio grounds at your patch bay or ADC panel. Keep them all isolated from each other. Connect each individual audio ground at the console side, and lift all the audio grounds at the ancillary equipment side. That should take care of any potential ground loops.
I came close to getting the idea with Star Grounding yet never got a follow up. I would love some clarification on this. As far as the rest of your paragraph, I was told to attach the ground at the patch bay side and lift the ground everywhere else (unless it is a mic pre using phantom power). Did I read you right? Do you lift the grounds on unbalanced cables as well?

When I click on the above link, it did not work. I even tried it from the home page and it still didn't work. I have Acrobat open and do not usually have problems with PDF's. Such is the way.

I'm in need. Thanks for your help.

Thomas
Old 11th January 2003
  #12
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by WinterRae


I came close to getting the idea with Star Grounding yet never got a follow up. I would love some clarification on this. As far as the rest of your paragraph, I was told to attach the ground at the patch bay side and lift the ground everywhere else (unless it is a mic pre using phantom power). Did I read you right? Do you lift the grounds on unbalanced cables as well?

When I click on the above link, it did not work. I even tried it from the home page and it still didn't work. I have Acrobat open and do not usually have problems with PDF's. Such is the way.

I'm in need. Thanks for your help.

Thomas
Thomas,

The Clean Audio document has information on star grounding; check it out.

The grounds should be individually attach at the patch bay side and also where you want the ground potential voltage to drain to. Usually it's the console, or at least, that's how we do it, everything else has the ground lifted. And, of course, the mic pre's are not lifted for the obvious reasons.

The Clean Audio Instillation Guide is a good read.
Try to find out why you cannot open the PDF file.
All your questions can be answered by reading that guide.
Old 11th January 2003
  #13
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith
As a side note, there is no ground wire running to my ac ground in my studio..
noise free here.
Did I understand you right? You have no AC ground?
If so, your studio maybe noise free... Are your free from danger?
Lifting your safety ground is a quick fix, but not very safe.
Not having a safety ground for the power is a big no, no.
Be careful.

If you're talking about lifting audio ground that's a different story.
Old 1st March 2005
  #14
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
well you can lift the ground as long as you still have a potential or path for the ground to go to besides your person

ive dealt with this several times in a live sound setting, getting horrible ground loops through the mains/ lift the grounds on the amps, problem solved.

NOTE: NEVER LIFT THE GROUNDS OF AN AMP AND A MIXER AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!!!! you will have no potential for the ground to go anywhere.

holding onto a guitar plugged into a guitar amp, then putting your mouth on a mic plugged into a dual lifted system, you will become the path. doesnt feel good ....at all.
Old 1st March 2005
  #15
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Remoteness
Did I understand you right? You have no AC ground?
If so, your studio maybe noise free... Are your free from danger?
Lifting your safety ground is a quick fix, but not very safe.
Not having a safety ground for the power is a big no, no.
Be careful.

If you're talking about lifting audio ground that's a different story.
I assumed he meant from the patchbay, which is pretty normal.
Old 2nd March 2005
  #16
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by hculture
holding onto a guitar plugged into a guitar amp, then putting
your mouth on a mic plugged into a dual lifted system, you will
become the path. doesnt feel good ....at all.
does anyone have this issue (circa 1982) from Mix with the
comix where...

the guitarist burned down to a skeleton in the studio and the
engineers in the control room says to the producer:
don't worry, we fix that in the mix!
Old 2nd March 2005
  #17
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
HAHAHAHA!! thats our running joke around here..........everything is fixable in the "mix".

thats not warm enough........fix in mix
i need a sitar sound here......fix in mix
i need more yellow................huh? i dont have the yellow plugin? oh wait yea i do........................................dfegad
Old 3rd March 2005
  #18
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Ruphus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
x
Attached Thumbnails
Grounding in my studio.-techprob.jpg  
Old 3rd March 2005
  #19
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I do believe Steve said, "...there is no ground wire running to my ac ground in my studio.."

If he meant something different I could not tell from the post.
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