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How much should I be charging now?
Old 28th December 2002
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
nemisis633's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
How much should I be charging now?

Hey everyone,

I've just dumped another $10k into my gear horde and I was wondering what you guys thought I should charging for hourly and day rates. My List of gear is as follows.

Pro Tools stuff:

Pro Tools HD 1 (soon to be HD2)
192 I/O w/analog expansion for 16 Ch's Analog in
Control 24

Monitors System:

Yamaha NS-10M's
Alesis Power Amp

Outboard :

Bass Pod Pro
Great River MP-2NV
Millenia Media NS-EQ2
2x Distressors with british mode and stereo image link
Power Conditioner
Headphone Distro

Mic's :

1x Soundelux ifet7
2x Neumann TLM-103
3x Sennheiser MD-421 MK 2
2x Rode NT1's
1x Rode NTK
5x SM-57's
1x Beta 91 Kick Mic

Instruments etc.

Yamaha Maple Custom Absolute 5 Peice Drum Set
Paiste Signature Cymbals...

My 2 rooms are 15x14 and 16x12... Treated with Auralex..

So what should I charge for the hour and for the day rate..

thanks guys,
Jon
Old 28th December 2002
  #2
Lives for gear
 
groundcontrol's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I really think this have way more to do with your area's studio-bizz scene rather than what we can think about it... Who is your direct competition and how much do they charge?

Cheers
Old 28th December 2002
  #3
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I agree with gc. Couldn't have put it better myself.
Old 28th December 2002
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
nemisis633's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There's another studio here in the area running a D8B and the matching mackie hard disc recorder. He's charging $40/hour and I don't know what for a day rate.

Then you have the guy with the Mackie Hard Disk Recorder and a Yamaha GA32 Analog board. $40/hour as well.

both of these top mic's for both of these shops is a rode NTK.

any further insight based on that?

Jon
Old 28th December 2002
  #5
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Hi Jon,

How are the rooms and services comparable between your room and the other two?
Old 30th December 2002
  #6
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I don't know. What are you worth? What does your product sound like? What do you need to charge to make it worthwhile and pay the bills? What are the other studios charging? Too many varibles to give a specific answer. Around here you'd probably be in the $30 to $80 an hour range. Why so big? Depends on the engineer, the final product and the rooms. There's more to the game then the gear. If your asking this kind of question without having an idea in your head you probably aren't ready to go into the studio for hire biz.
Old 30th December 2002
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
nemisis633's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The reason I'm asking this kind of question, is that I know I can ask more for my services with better equipment, and I was just trying to find out how much of an impact that should make. People are always really satisfied with what I send them home with.

thanks everyone,
Jon

P.S. This forum is addictive....
Old 30th December 2002
  #8
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by nemisis633
The reason I'm asking this kind of question, is that I know I can ask more for my services with better equipment, and I was just trying to find out how much of an impact that should make.
Remember that you can ASK for more, but you won't necessarily get it. Those clients who only know that they have seen ads for $25 an hour studios won't care what you have to record with - they want to to not only meet the $25 an hour price, but to beat it.
Old 30th December 2002
  #9
Gear Addict
 
Curious G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Maybe you could "ala carte" some of the high end gear?

I agree, the market generally dictates the book rate.

Is $25 to $40 the going rate? (ouch!) That must be brutal...
Old 31st December 2002
  #10
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
For heaven's sake also take a serious look at what it really costs to run your studio. Don't try to compete with people who are losing money or you'll end up with them as just another batch of gear on E-Bay.
Old 31st December 2002
  #11
Lives for gear
 
toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Bob is SO right. You can't charge based on what other people are charging; it has to be based on your costs. The second I said **** it and started charging more, I got a lot more business.
Old 1st January 2003
  #12
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I disagree about cost-based pricing. It's important to know your costs in order to properly run your business and manage your cash flow. However, your pricing should be based on the maximum the market and your client base and reputation allow you to charge, not on costs-plus-a-margin.

Many studios practice variable project pricing, or project-specific pricing. You take into account the client's budget, the time period (demand-wise), your level of current bookings, your rep, the specific needs of the client's project, your ability to meet those needs (in-house vs rental, strengths, experience, etc), the desirability of the client and project, etc, etc. -- in putting together a price proposal.

With some clients it may be desirable to have a high-quality, high-price image. With others it may be better to show the most bang for the buck i.e. the best room with certain standards they can get for under $xxxx per day.

I do believe, rightly or wrongly, that the higher up the food chain and the more experience you manage to get, the better it is. In a major recording market like LA, New York or Paris, it's probably better to be the 10-year old studio with a certain prestige and some lease payments behind it now upgrading to a K or a bigger J than to be the new guy starting a ProControl room or even a mid-level 4k room.

This is generally a tough business for starting a new studio. Speaking personally, it has been a year filled with learning since we opened the doors of Capitol Paris last April. The first 6 months is the most critical period, as Chris Stone would often write. Eight months on and here we are, providing a full restaurant service and beginning surround music-to-picture and film scoring work. I've been behind the console between ten and thirty days per month, except this fall when the studio was booked for a 51-day run with Pierre Jaconelli (friend of fellow GS member Volodia) and Peter Schwier producing and engineering. January and February 2003 are full. As one of my friendlier competitors said over lunch recently: "If your destiny was to not make it through the start-up period of your new studio, you would know by now. "

Of course, it's never over. The biggest studios continually invest aggressively to maintain the gap between them and all the other places to record and mix...which tends to weed-out the also-rans from those who are successful enough to keep up the pace of investment.
Old 1st January 2003
  #13
Lives for gear
 
toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon
I disagree about cost-based pricing. It's important to know your costs in order to properly run your business and manage your cash flow. However, your pricing should be based on the maximum the market and your client base and reputation allow you to charge, not on costs-plus-a-margin.

Many studios practice project-specific pricing, which takes into account the client's budget, the time period (demand-wise), your level of current bookings, your rep, the specific needs of the client's project, your ability to meet those needs (in-house vs rental, strengths, experience, etc), the desirability of the client and project, etc, etc. -- in putting together a price proposal.
That's well said.
Old 1st January 2003
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Jack the Bear's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Everyone here has given great input. I would like to add this for consideration.

In my experience people go to a facility for the personel first and gear selection second. Any other luxuries or additional services may help, but will not necessarily sway their decision.

Your track record is imperitive. The more sucessful or well-known gigs you were responsible or contributed to recently will have more impact and will give potential clients more confidence.

Don't rely on the glories of the past. People don't care. You can bet having your name on the Audioslave CD has more kudos than say a Fleetwood Mac album credit (great as the album may have been) and nothing else since then.

You may ask how do I get a track record?? Well it's a lotta hard work!!! Marketing by record companies puts you in the basket of the winning team. This is why you should treat every project like it's a priority major label release. The unknowns of today become the superstars of tomorrow.

Whether you are a project or high-end facility, your ability to gain client confidence is paramount to working consistently. Getting guys in the door and using you is the first step. Everybody started from nothing and even if some people got a break, they still had to cut the mustard.

Don't get caught up in price wars. The cheapest car isn't the most popular on the road. The market determines your worth. People can be strange. There seems to be a perception that the more they pay, the better it must be (all within reason).

I've experienced it 1st hand and seen it time and time again.

While you want to keep an eye on your competition, don't get too carried away or concerned with them. Be a trendsetter and not trendy.

As I said your ability to communicate with your clients and build relationships is of most importance.

Do some costings and work out what you need to at least cover your nut and overheads for the month.
Divide it by how many hours you are prepared to work as a minimum and there's your hourly rate.
Old 1st January 2003
  #15
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I second the monitor suggestion. NS10Ms can be an option in a decent studio, but if that's all you have, it cancels out your PTHD. I don't understand why even zillion dollar studios spend pennies on monitors.

If your studio sits on the boarder between price points, having a better set of monitors may tip things into the higher price range.
Old 2nd January 2003
  #16
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Unless it's a privately owned engineer studio and the clients don't care about what monitors you have.
Old 2nd January 2003
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
nemisis633's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
What Kind of monitors would you reccomend then? I thought the NS-10's were the standard, hence why i bought them. I was thinking of the "Blue Sky" 2.1 Monitor set for a second set of monitors. The Mackies make me want to vomit from my prior experience with them. I understand you can "learn" them, but the bass seems so exagerated to me.
Old 2nd January 2003
  #18
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
From my experience, NS10s are still a standard that many engineers use.

Over here, I haven't had any free-lance engineers request anything outside the following list in the past eight months:

(in order of popularity):

- NS10s (with a good amp behind them, 250W-500W per channel)
- Genelec 1031s
- Auratones
- Genelec 1030s

In addition to those monitors, we also have a pair of Dynaudio BM15As, Meyer HD1s and old Sentry 100s, but no one has wanted to use them yet!
Old 2nd January 2003
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
nemisis633's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
So what brand of amp then? Right now my little alesis is only pushing 75 watts per channel. So that might explain why the NS-10's dont sound so beautiful.

Jon
Old 2nd January 2003
  #20
Gear Addict
 
mplancke's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by nemisis633
So what brand of amp then? Right now my little alesis is only pushing 75 watts per channel. So that might explain why the NS-10's dont sound so beautiful.

Jon
A Bryston 4B is a good match for NS10's.

Mark
Old 2nd January 2003
  #21
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
While Jay is right, from what I understand, you will be presenting yourself as a "studio," not merely bringing in business based on your preexisting reputation (yet!), and more importantly, are not one of those engineers who MUST use NS10Ms because you used them for the past million years and cling to them like a good luck charm.

I would therefore not sink any more (or any significant) money into a better amp for the NS10Ns. Yes, they're a studio standard, and there have been endless debates about them. However, they will make the audio sound neither great to listen to while you're working, nor will they give you an accurate representation of what you're doing. In fact, many of the arguments for them, over the years, have been that the way they *distort* the audio encourages mixers to compensate in ways that are ultimately beneficial. I look at them as studio jewelry, adorning consoles like earings that comfort those clients who need to see them there for nostalgia's sake.

Most monitors you would want to consider would be active, and do not require an additional amplifier -- this is definately the way to go. There are a number of new monitors that a lot of people like, and that I haven't heard -- ADAMS, that Blue stuff, etc.

The Genelec 1030s or 1031s are pretty standard and you would be happy with either, and I would recommend them over the Dynaudio BM15As. The Genelecs, btw, frequently accompany ProTools -- including in Digi's ads and demos.

I use ATCs, which are active and accurate, but more money. For what you're describing and for better bang for the buck, I wouldn't go for ATCs (although the 20As are pretty cool, and there's a new 16a designed for the "American Rock studio"). Rather, I'd look at the Genelecs and their recent crop of competitors.

-MattiMattMatt
Old 2nd January 2003
  #22
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by MattiMattMatt
While Jay is right, from what I understand, you will be presenting yourself as a "studio," not merely bringing in business based on your preexisting reputation (yet!), and more importantly, are not one of those engineers who MUST use NS10Ms because you used them for the past million years and cling to them like a good luck charm.

I would therefore not sink any more (or any significant) money into a better amp for the NS10Ns. Yes, they're a studio standard, and there have been endless debates about them. However, they will make the audio sound neither great to listen to while you're working, nor will they give you an accurate representation of what you're doing. In fact, many of the arguments for them, over the years, have been that the way they *distort* the audio encourages mixers to compensate in ways that are ultimately beneficial. I look at them as studio jewelry, adorning consoles like earings that comfort those clients who need to see them there for nostalgia's sake.

Most monitors you would want to consider would be active, and do not require an additional amplifier -- this is definately the way to go. There are a number of new monitors that a lot of people like, and that I haven't heard -- ADAMS, that Blue stuff, etc.

The Genelec 1030s or 1031s are pretty standard and you would be happy with either, and I would recommend them over the Dynaudio BM15As. The Genelecs, btw, frequently accompany ProTools -- including in Digi's ads and demos.

-MattiMattMatt
Just because Genelecs are a standard doesn't make them great monitors.tut

They also have Lava lamps in those ads...do they also make PT sound better?(Come to think of it maybe that is what i am lacking?)heh

In every studio that i freelance that has them I purposedly change the EQ settings in the back.

I much prefer when possible to bring my own monitors.

The amp is important on NS10's, if not someone will end up blowing them(pushing them too hard). I think the Bryston is a great choice(even a 2BST will do). The Stewart amp is also an excellent match.
Old 2nd January 2003
  #23
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Thrill, I promise we'll hide the gennies when you're in town.

FWIW...I've never been able to like 1031s/1030s/1029s...but they are certainly the most popular nearfields (after NS10s) among the other engineers I've seen. Some of them have been using them for a long time and know what their mix needs to sound like on them. Which is a pretty darn valid reason to use 'em.

I can understand why many folks don't understand the NS10 thang. I've been using NS10s since the late eighties, hated them for probably the first 3-4 years (at home with a mediocre amp), and never really enjoyed them very much except when sitting on an SSL meter bridge. On an SSL, something combines right acoustically and they become great monitors for mixing...my personal favorite. But on two speaker stands behind a ProControl or straddling a computer screen, I wouldn't enjoy using them either.

So many nearfields out there just seem to have hyped highs and a relative lack of mid-range content...now and then I stray away but quickly go back to the NS10s and horrortones. For setting final levels at low volumes, especially, it's hard to beat them.

Brystons behind NS10s work really well. I've got a pair of $2500 C-Audio RA3001s behind mine (a separate chassis for each channel) and they sound great too.
Old 3rd January 2003
  #24
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Hey Thrill, I promise we'll hide the gennies when you're in town.

FWIW...I've never been able to like 1031s/1030s/1029s...but they are certainly the most popular nearfields (after NS10s) among the other engineers I've seen. Some of them have been using them for a long time and know what their mix needs to sound like on them. Which is a pretty darn valid reason to use 'em.

I can understand why many folks don't understand the NS10 thang. I've been using NS10s since the late eighties, hated them for probably the first 3-4 years (at home with a mediocre amp), and never really enjoyed them very much except when sitting on an SSL meter bridge. On an SSL, something combines right acoustically and they become great monitors for mixing...my personal favorite. But on two speaker stands behind a ProControl or straddling a computer screen, I wouldn't enjoy using them either.

So many nearfields out there just seem to have hyped highs and a relative lack of mid-range content...now and then I stray away but quickly go back to the NS10s and horrortones. For setting final levels at low volumes, especially, it's hard to beat them.

Brystons behind NS10s work really well. I've got a pair of $2500 C-Audio RA3001s behind mine (a separate chassis for each channel) and they sound great too.
Hey Jon,

The Gennies in your place are fine as long as I can get to the dip switches in the back!!heh

Actually when I get through with them, they end up sounding like NS10's.rollz

Also your studio is your business, so having what other guys will use is a need.

Its funny most of the guys I know can't stand them(Genelec 1031's)(they are too hyped), its mostly the young cats that dig them. I think its because they are not as easy to blow when you really push them hard.

Hey a $5000 amp on your NS10's, not bad.

But i think I can beat that.

I had the crossovers on my NS10's totally tuned and changed(new everything, the wire alone was like $500). The amplifier I am using is an $18,000 Mark Levinson.
Old 3rd January 2003
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
thethrillfactor:

You're nuts!




Of course, if you were a true audio phreak, you would've ditched the Mark Levinson and bought a Cello, when Mark left Madrigal and his name behind, and formed Cello.

Interesting comment about the 1031 -- in many ways the 1030 is a much better design, tweaked into the 1031 for marketing purposes more than anything else. Forget about the 1029 for serious work.

Yeh yeh yeh, the Genelecs are not the greatest monitors in the world, but they are meat and potatos for anyone opening a ProTools studio as described above, and way better than the Mackie-type stuff.

nemisis633:

Regarding NS10Ms -- the comments above are exactly the point -- they have become a fetish, deified into cultlike adoration. However, the quality of affordable monitors has soared in the past 10 years, just as the NS10Ms qualified for Medicaire. Everybody and their aunt started making active near monitors catering to the growing market of higher-fidelity, smaller-scale studios, and as a result, the post-NS10M world is a far better place.

I'm sure that in some circumstances, with some engineers, NS10Ms are the thing. But are these the circumstances in which -- and the engineers with whom -- you plan to work? Are you pairing your NS10Ms with a $18,000 amp, on an SSL, with Bruce Swedian hanging mics in your tracking room? Plus, have you compared the actual sound of them to anything else?

BOTTOM LINE:

It's like French people. When you're not listening, they're all speaking English. All those fancy engineers who claim to use NS10Ms -- when no one's around, they're all listening through Genelecs.

And just picture the first client who comes to your studio and wants to listen to his mix at a loud volume, for nothing but his own vanity, i.e. EVERY SINGLE CLIENT IN THE WORLD, and you can't turn up your NS10Ms cause they'll sound like kazoos. Then picture the expression on his face, the expression of someone sitting on an unexpectedly soft toilet seat, you know, those creepy, cushy, toilet seats that enjoyed a brief popularity just about the same time the NS10Ms were becoming all the rage. And you'll have to look at that face, that look of pure disappointment aimed in your direction, and then you glance at your Industry Standard NS10Ms that couldn't deliver in the fourth quarter, you shake your head, stare at the floor, and wish you hadn't quite smoking. It is a moment too horrible to contemplate, and yet it is totally avoidable.

All you have to do -- and I say this now as a friend, rather than some faceless, internet audio correspondant -- is get the lava lamp, and chuck the NS10Ms.



-MattiMattMatt
Old 3rd January 2003
  #26
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by MattiMattMatt
thethrillfactor:

You're nuts!




Of course, if you were a true audio phreak, you would've ditched the Mark Levinson and bought a Cello, when Mark left Madrigal and his name behind, and formed Cello.

Interesting comment about the 1031 -- in many ways the 1030 is a much better design, tweaked into the 1031 for marketing purposes more than anything else. Forget about the 1029 for serious work.

Yeh yeh yeh, the Genelecs are not the greatest monitors in the world, but they are meat and potatos for anyone opening a ProTools studio as described above, and way better than the Mackie-type stuff.

nemisis633:

Regarding NS10Ms -- the comments above are exactly the point -- they have become a fetish, deified into cultlike adoration. However, the quality of affordable monitors has soared in the past 10 years, just as the NS10Ms qualified for Medicaire. Everybody and their aunt started making active near monitors catering to the growing market of higher-fidelity, smaller-scale studios, and as a result, the post-NS10M world is a far better place.

I'm sure that in some circumstances, with some engineers, NS10Ms are the thing. But are these the circumstances in which -- and the engineers with whom -- you plan to work? Are you pairing your NS10Ms with a $18,000 amp, on an SSL, with Bruce Swedian hanging mics in your tracking room? Plus, have you compared the actual sound of them to anything else?

BOTTOM LINE:

It's like French people. When you're not listening, they're all speaking English. All those fancy engineers who claim to use NS10Ms -- when no one's around, they're all listening through Genelecs.

And just picture the first client who comes to your studio and wants to listen to his mix at a loud volume, for nothing but his own vanity, i.e. EVERY SINGLE CLIENT IN THE WORLD, and you can't turn up your NS10Ms cause they'll sound like kazoos. Then picture the expression on his face, the expression of someone sitting on an unexpectedly soft toilet seat, you know, those creepy, cushy, toilet seats that enjoyed a brief popularity just about the same time the NS10Ms were becoming all the rage. And you'll have to look at that face, that look of pure disappointment aimed in your direction, and then you glance at your Industry Standard NS10Ms that couldn't deliver in the fourth quarter, you shake your head, stare at the floor, and wish you hadn't quite smoking. It is a moment too horrible to contemplate, and yet it is totally avoidable.

All you have to do -- and I say this now as a friend, rather than some faceless, internet audio correspondant -- is get the lava lamp, and chuck the NS10Ms.



-MattiMattMatt

Sorry MattiMattMatt,

I hate Cello's, I think they are the most "over hyped" amps(probably due to Bob Ludwig in the late 80's). The Mark Levinson i am using(2 mono blocks) are from the "golden era" of audiophile components(mid 80's-early 90's). I've never heard a speaker that it didn't improve. The new Levinson stuff is just not as good.

Hey by the way nice graphics!!!

I wish i could do that!!!
Old 3rd January 2003
  #27
Ted
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Hey thrill,

Heard the ML in the new Lexus 430s etc..? It sounds great. That's why I bought the car, flatter than a pancake and revealing as all get out!

Thanks,
Ted.
Old 3rd January 2003
  #28
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Ted
Hey thrill,

Heard the ML in the new Lexus 430s etc..? It sounds great. That's why I bought the car, flatter than a pancake and revealing as all get out!

Thanks,
Ted.
I did hear somewhere that the sound system(Lexus) was hot!!!

But I do think he is overexposing himself(ML). I checked out the new speakers from his new company(Revel)...and I was very dissapointed. There was a time where his designs and gear was top notch...untouchable. But lately its just like everyone else.

I think all of the new speaker designs(by all the top manufacturers) are the same...hyped at the top and bottom. I guess they got tired of people over EQing their systems. I see the trend alot in studio speakers also, bright,thin, boomy and more foward sounding.
Old 3rd January 2003
  #29
Ted
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
You know I thought that too about the Revels until I installed them in a high-end home theatre I just finished for a doctor. They sounded great in his room, not thin or tinny like I remember them at the show. They were powered by 7 Bryston 7Bs and the room I designed was RPG. But you know, Mark has nothing to do with Revel, that's a Harmon company. The speakers were designed by Kevin Voecks who used to be with Snell and learned from Peter Snell.

I have the Snell Music and Cinema Reference system with Peter's Type "A" towers as the left and right and it's to die for. I will say again I was very surprised how good the Revels sounded in this room. I was expecting to have to add fiberglass to attenuate them. There are a lot of controls on them. I set these flat and they were great, didn't have to add anything. I'm afraid lot's of people/dealers are boosting the high and ruining the outcome, it's too bad. Kevin will go out or consult on the big installs because he knows it's real easy not to set them up right due to all the flexibilty he designed into them. I was shocked by my outcome...

Thanks,
Ted.
Old 3rd January 2003
  #30
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Ted
You know I thought that too about the Revels until I installed them in a high-end home theatre I just finished for a doctor. They sounded great in his room, not thin or tinny like I remember them at the show. They were powered by 7 Bryston 7Bs and the room I designed was RPG. But you know, Mark has nothing to do with Revel, that's a Harmon company. The speakers were designed by Kevin Voecks who used to be with Snell and learned from Peter Snell.

I have the Snell Music and Cinema Reference system with Peter's Type "A" towers as the left and right and it's to die for. I will say again I was very surprised how good the Revels sounded in this room. I was expecting to have to add fiberglass to attenuate them. There are a lot of controls on them. I set these flat and they were great, didn't have to add anything. I'm afraid lot's of people/dealers are boosting the high and ruining the outcome, it's too bad. Kevin will go out or consult on the big installs because he knows it's real easy not to set them up right due to all the flexibilty he designed into them. I was shocked by my outcome...

Thanks,
Ted.
Hey Ted,

Even though Revel is a Harmon company, it is still ML behind it.

My favorite ML designer was John Krell(the designer of the Parasound amplifiers). When he was there they designed some of their best stuff.

Snells are nice(even though i am not the biggest fan), I think Snell,Sonus Faber, Thiel,Swan,Apogee and Quad kinda all fall in the same category, great for Jazz and classical, but not the greatest speakers for modern music.


I'll look into the Voeck's speakers.
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