Quantcast
KM 84? How does it handle acoustic guitars? Any other recs? - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
KM 84? How does it handle acoustic guitars? Any other recs?
Old 24th December 2002
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Sir Bob's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
KM 84? How does it handle acoustic guitars? Any other recs?

I want to home record acoustic guitars: Martin HD-28, Martin 000-28, Dobro.

I hear KM 84 rocks. What does that mean? Any other ideas?heh
Old 24th December 2002
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's a wonderful mic for acoustic. Natural sounding, not too bright. There are many choices, but that is a good one that I feel you will enjoy. Depends on your pre as well.
Old 24th December 2002
  #3
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Knox, what Pre do you use for acoustic guitars thru a km84?
Old 24th December 2002
  #4
Lives for gear
 
drundall's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I used to love km84's on acoustics, haven't done it in a while though.
Old 24th December 2002
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by AgonizingpaiN
Hey Knox, what Pre do you use for acoustic guitars thru a km84?
It would depend on the guitar and the sound I'm looking for. Is it a strumming part? Is it a finger picking part? Is it a "hi fi" type sound or a James Taylor type? Solo or "inside" a track? A "vibey" type sound?

I have an old Gibson J200 that sounds unbelievable for strumming parts. Sometimes it can be too big if it's a busy part or the tempo is real quick. It's my favorite guitar though . . . had it forever. Anyway, recently I got a really cool "hi fi" sound out of it with the Vipre and LA-2A (hit it fairly hard), with a KM 84. Very Steve Earl-ish sound.

Something crystal clear, I may grab an API or Neve, maybe a touch of Tube Tech compression (if it's solo) or 1176 (depends on track) with an 84 or even a 184. Especially if it's a finger picking part with a Taylor or some newer "boutiqe" guitar. (Not my favorite guitars. I like Gibsons or Martin D-18s for strumming, haven't figured out what my favorite is for finger picking)

I got a VERY cool sound recently with a Brauner VM1 into the Vipre (the Vipre is the best thing I ever did for my Brauner) . . . . anyway . . I had the Brauner back about 5 feet into the Vipre, into LA-2A. With a KM84 over the shoulder about 6 feet up. Sounded great!

These are just some rough ideas . . it's 4:45 AM and I'm as tired as a nine eyed Mexican, so it may not be the info you are looking for. Will try to look at it tomorrow and add to or subtract from!
Old 24th December 2002
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
Sir Bob's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well I imagine that a large diaphram mic is more appropriate for strumming so the small diaphram mic I'm looking for should be more appropriate for finger picking.

I am mostly into the big Martin sound.

What's the difference between a KM 84 and KM 184? Maybe I ought to get a pair of KM 184 so I have some other options down the road. Right now I am only thinking of mono micing of a Martin acoustic guitar. I only have a Neve 1272 (Averill) but I will add on later.
Old 24th December 2002
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bob
Well I imagine that a large diaphram mic is more appropriate for strumming so the small diaphram mic I'm looking for should be more appropriate for finger picking.

I am mostly into the big Martin sound.

What's the difference between a KM 84 and KM 184? Maybe I ought to get a pair of KM 184 so I have some other options down the road. Right now I am only thinking of mono micing of a Martin acoustic guitar. I only have a Neve 1272 (Averill) but I will add on later.
Stay with the 84 over 184. I think you will be happy. 184s are brighter and some say, not as natural sounding (though they both have their uses). It will be harder to find a good pair of 84s though and they will be more expensive. Some people in Nashville use AKG 414s, maybe Dave Martin can talk to you about that if he reads this.
Old 24th December 2002
  #8
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
Some people in Nashville use AKG 414s,
Never seen that personally...then again I can't stand the 414 on anything but toms.

Agree whole heartedly about the Brauner. On acoustics they are amazing.

The 184 is a good goto, but on some acoustics it does sound a little anemic compared to an 84. Get an 84 if you find a good one, you can always get a 184 later.
Old 24th December 2002
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Ckevperry
Never seen that personally...then again I can't stand the 414 on anything but toms.

Agree whole heartedly about the Brauner. On acoustics they are amazing.
Years ago . . I remember using 414s on things. It's funny, these days . . . I NEVER use them for anything. Isn't it strange how you change? Brauner . . . it's my first choice for acoustic guitars now. Or KM-84.

On a different note, if you get a chance . . . give your Brauner a listen through the Vipre (if you haven't already) . . it smoothed out the annoying edge that it had on certain vocalists. It REALLY made it much more usable in situations I would not have used it on before the Vipre. VERY creamy and smooth.

Regards,
Old 24th December 2002
  #10
Gear Addict
 
Curious G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Josephson c42's are a nice alternative to the km184's
Old 24th December 2002
  #11
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The cool thing about KM-84s is that they are so neutral that you can use almost any eq you want without needing to work around the character of the mike. For any given guitar you might easily prefer something else flat but a KM-84 combined with a touch of eq. is very hard to beat especially in a mix.
Old 25th December 2002
  #12
VIP
 
mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
How does the 84 compare to the new 184?
Old 25th December 2002
  #13
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
The new 184 is brighter and has less character than the older 84, which is flatter in the high frequencies. I can definitely hear the effect of the transformer on the audio in the 84. I think Soundelux could make a stellar interpretation of the Neumann KM86 (basically a triple polar pattern KM84) or even the KM56.
Old 25th December 2002
  #14
Gear Addict
 
mixer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i have both an 84 and a pair of 184s love them both..the 184s are a little brighter...but basically if i a b them i really don't hear much difference in the detail...also the older a mic gets its sound signature changes just from use...both are great for some acoustic guitars..on some i prefer an omni pattern .
Old 25th December 2002
  #15
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bob
Well I imagine that a large diaphram mic is more appropriate for strumming so the small diaphram mic I'm looking for should be more appropriate for finger picking.
A large diaphragm mic is no more appropriate for stumming than a small diaphragm mic.

When I'm tracking acoustics (usually, we'll be putting acoustics on between 8 and 15 songs at a sitting), I'll choose the mic based on the guitar that we'll be using most. Since I tend to record acoustics in stereo (at least, if there's only one main acoustic guitar pass), I'll typically use either a pair of KM-184's or Shure KSM-44's, throught either a Great River MP-2 or a Great River NV and a Manley ELOP. Now that my Manley pre is back, I'll add that into the rotation. THe three acoustics I record most over here are a Martin dreadnaught, a Santa Cruz dreadnaught, or a Taylor. They all sound great with either pair of mics and with any of the aforementioned preamps.
Old 25th December 2002
  #16
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
Some people in Nashville use AKG 414s, maybe Dave Martin can talk to you about that if he reads this.
Unlike Kevin, I've seen them used a time or two over the years (I seem to remember George Clinton at Fireside using them, and maybe the guy who engineers at Studio 19), but the guitar players have never been particularly happy with the sound. At least one guitar player I know used to carry a KM84 with him - even if the engineer doesn't want to use it, He'll feed it into his Mor- Me box for his own monitoring.

But then, I also work regularly at a studio that uses AKG C1000's on the acoustic, and I don't care much for that sound, either. But Sphere preamps and EQ's seem to help...
Old 25th December 2002
  #17
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Dave, you mentioned that while recording acoustic guitars you tend to go for a pair of KM184's or a pair of Shure KSM44 mics. Do you consider these two models interchangeable or do you use one or the other to yield different textures? Like some of the other posters have noted, I have read about the KM184's being a bit bright for some people's tastes. Is the KSM44 also a bit toppy?

I'd like to eventually get a pair of reasonably-priced condensors for stereo acoustic guitar and for stereo drum overheads/room mics.
Old 25th December 2002
  #18
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by zenfreud
Dave, you mentioned that while recording acoustic guitars you tend to go for a pair of KM184's or a pair of Shure KSM44 mics. Do you consider these two models interchangeable or do you use one or the other to yield different textures? Like some of the other posters have noted, I have read about the KM184's being a bit bright for some people's tastes. Is the KSM44 also a bit toppy?
I think that the KM184's are brighter than the Shures. Overall, I prefer the KSM44's to anything else I've used on acoustics, but from time to time, they are busy doing other things (like drum overheads). But I'm experimenting with a pair of RE-2000's for overheads, which I'm currently liking a lot (though I've only used them with one drummer's cymbals; I'll have to try them with some other drummers before they become the default overheads). If I continue to like them, then the KSM44's will likely stay on acoustics, and the KM184's are likely to go back in the locker for a while.
Old 25th December 2002
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by zenfreud
Like some of the other posters have noted, I have read about the KM184's being a bit bright for some people's tastes.

I'd like to eventually get a pair of reasonably-priced condensors for stereo acoustic guitar and for stereo drum overheads/room mics.
I don't know about you guys, but I go through "changes" where I want a complete change from what I have been doing or hearing. For the longest time I was using a Stereo Royer for OHs. It seemed a bit dark, but incredibly natural and smooth. For many groups it worked. Don't think it is dark per se, as much as un hyped. Like a ribbon tweeter.

Then I began to get tired of that and wanted to hear a brighter sound for OHs on some of the heavier bands, so I went back to the 84s, which I used for years and have always liked.

The other day I used the 184s on a guys kit and I REALLY liked them . . . . into Neve eqs / pres (which I don't normally use for OHs) . . . . . . about as far from the Royer sound as you can get. From smooth, natural and real sound to sizzle and a tad hyped.

Of course it depends on the vibe and sound we are looking for (obviously the kit / cymbals as well) . . . but I remember not liking 184s on OHs the couple of times I tried them. Who knows eh? The 184s on OHs worked well on the mix too.

Sometimes the Royer is missing some excitement in a heavy track where guitars are tuned down and thick. I still love the Royer though and I know I will use it again in a more "real" sounding band (blues or jazz especially). I may put the 184s back up for OHs in a couple of days on a drop band and not like them and go right back to Royer, who knows? It's funny to me.

****
Also, I have used the 121 Royer (back side) on acoustic guitar a couple of times to Vipre for interesting effect, though probably not my favorite.

btw. . . . I tend to not mic in stereo if it is a strummed up tempo. I will stack it possibly. Finger picking is always 2 mics, at least. Or I will use two mics if it is a slow strummed part and only do one pass.

I like acoustic guitar tracks in songs, even if they are way back in a raw tune . . . keeping time or creating movement.
Old 25th December 2002
  #20
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
I have an "old school" engineer friend I just introduced a u195 to instead of his old faithful 414 that he used on acoustic, vocals and whatever. After hearing, he felt like a fool for using the 414 for so long. "It's like a blanket has been lifted off of everything!"

Someone PLEASE whisper in David Bock's ear about a KM84 inspired small diaphragm condenser.
Old 25th December 2002
  #21
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin
Unlike Kevin, I've seen them used a time or two over the years (I seem to remember George Clinton at Fireside using them, and maybe the guy who engineers at Studio 19), but the guitar players have never been particularly happy with the sound.
I have also heard a Microtech Geffell(sp?) that Julian King uses on acoustics that sounded good. I believe it was a um70.
Old 25th December 2002
  #22
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Ckevperry
I have also heard a Microtech Geffell(sp?) that Julian King uses on acoustics that sounded good. I believe it was a um70.
One of these days, I hope to make time to try my old pair of Gefell UM57's and a pair of M582's on acoustics. My biggest problem is that due to the assembly line nature of my work, I don't often have the luxury of experimental time when tracking. Sometimes, I'll mess with it on overdubs, depending on the player and his (or her) schedule, the amount of work that has to be completed, and how I feel that day. That's how we found an M582 with an M62 capsule to be so spectacularly good on mandolin...
Old 25th December 2002
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Dave . . isn't a Crown CM700 (is that right?) suppose to be a good acoustic mic? I think Alphajerk has one. What about the Octavia (is that how you spell it?) I read that people use those as well. Also, AKG 451s . . . I have 451s but I never use them for acoustic. I know people that swear by them.
Old 25th December 2002
  #24
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
I don't know about you guys, but I go through "changes" where I want a complete change from what I have been doing or hearing.
Oh, yeah - I'll definitely go through those sorts of changes from time to time. Overheads, instruments, bass (especially). I'll get tired of the sounds I'm getting and find some other, 'better' way to record it. Of course, the next time I feel that way, I may go back to what I'd done previously...
Old 25th December 2002
  #25
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Re: KM 84? How does it handle acoustic guitars? Any other recs?

Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bob
I want to home record acoustic guitars: Martin HD-28, Martin 000-28, Dobro.
And since you mentioned dobro, I ought to say that the mics I've used for acoustic guitars don't tend to be appropriate for dobro.

I still want to try a U67 (Bil Vorndick recommended it) because I wasn't knocked out by either the Shures I've mentioned, M582's, or the KM184's. I used an EV RE-2000 the last time I tracked dobro, but it was more the best of the lot than something spectacular.
Old 25th December 2002
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin
Oh, yeah - I'll definitely go through those sorts of changes from time to time. I may go back to what I'd done previously...
Dave . . . . You ever have those days where NO MATTER WHAT . . NOTHING works? Everything seems out of phase or whacked out in one way or another, no matter what you do?

I have those (about twice a year when I'm really tired and have a lot going on) and think "I have lost whatever, (if I EVER had any) ability that I had and I 'should' NEVER work in this business again.

Or "will I ever be able to work in this business again should I ever want to?" . . . "because something broke inside me". . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . only to come in 2 days later and everything is back to normal! lol
Old 25th December 2002
  #27
Gear Addict
 
nOiz's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
i love km84 on ag a lot....sometimes i use 2 of them for stereo, and sometimes i will add a big condenser mic too.

i prefer km84 over km184. don't like the mid range on the km184. km84 sounds more natural to me.
Old 25th December 2002
  #28
Gear Addict
 
mplancke's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Ckevperry
After hearing, he felt like a fool for using the 414 for so long. "It's like a blanket has been lifted off of everything!"
Which variation of the 414 are you referring too? I have a pair of silver EB's with CK12 caps that you'd have to pry from my cold, dead hands. I wouldn't call them blanketed by any means! If your referring to later incarnations of the dfegad 414, yeah they suck.
Old 25th December 2002
  #29
Gear Addict
 
mixer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i have a new tlII 414 i purchased to replace an older one that died...i have not been disapointed .....had a new ubls and sold it cheap...it was horrible.....
Old 25th December 2002
  #30
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
Dave . . . . You ever have those days where NO MATTER WHAT . . NOTHING works? Everything seems out of phase or whacked out in one way or another, no matter what you do?

Oh, yeah - and some days it feels like I've lost my will to live, too. Usually, these things come either when I'm absolutely swamped with work, or when I have no work at all. I'll listen to what's going on and it all sucks. The songs suck, the players suck, and most especially, the sounds I'm getting suck. And it doesn't seem to happen when gear breaks; I can work around that - it's just me.

But I've had it happen enough that I go back to my default signal chain and mic placements, and forge ahead. It's usually just fine a day or two later...
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 5783 views: 1867089
Avatar for Jeroko
Jeroko 2 days ago
replies: 1170 views: 260772
Avatar for t2299219
t2299219 2 weeks ago
replies: 92 views: 35402
Avatar for Ty Ford
Ty Ford 5th April 2021
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump