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PTHD and 192k
Old 18th December 2002
  #1
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PTHD and 192k

I am trying to record all things now at 192k...using Hush Drives (avammo.com), 7200 rpm Firewire drives. 12 tracks per drive / using 2 drives for 24 tracks at 192k. Using analog outputs only, no digital bounces. Thinking I will get either high end A/D for my HHB CD burner or 1/4" 1/2" deck for finals. It is this or analog and I cannot afford machine and desk. Wish me luck.

side note: Michael, I put a new/old GE 5 star tube from the 50's in the C12VR and it has new life. Still would like to try Soundelux 47 or 251...any comments on the Tracy Korby mics?

peace john
Old 18th December 2002
  #2
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alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
so how do you like the sound of 192? im getting ready to move to 96 on the next project.
Old 18th December 2002
  #3
Jax
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Re: PTHD and 192k

Quote:
Originally posted by jwh1192
Using analog outputs only, no digital bounces. Thinking I will get either high end A/D for my HHB CD burner or 1/4" 1/2" deck for finals. It is this or analog and I cannot afford machine and desk. Wish me luck.
Good luck. Why would you get high end A/D for your HHB if you started out at 192? I mean you might want to start out with great converters at 192 and then use the best method of sample rate conversion available to get to 44.1. Wouldn't high end converters before the HHB be redundant?

You didn't explain how you use the analog outputs.
Old 18th December 2002
  #4
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well, if the sound coming out of PTHD is what is desired. then, i need to be able to put it to a master of some form. so far, the sample rate conversion in PTHD does not sound as good as...recording at 192k, mixing and then running out of PT to my HHB analog...the reason for the better converters on the way into the HHB is to bring that part up to a higher level. yes, i agree better converters on the way into PTHD would be nice, but there is a cost issue also.

i am totally open to any and all suggestions, comments, and criticisms...

peace john
Old 18th December 2002
  #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by jwh1192
.... yes, i agree better converters on the way into PTHD would be nice, but there is a cost issue also.

i am totally open to any and all suggestions, comments, and criticisms...

peace john
you got into HD with the 192 right ??? What better convertors that do 192k can you get ??

192 is the ONLY way to get 192k into HD
Old 19th December 2002
  #6
Jax
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Another option is picking up the best external SRC you can find and seeing how it sounds when whittling 192 all the way down to 44.1 compared to what you're already doing. You could buy a Weiss eq or comp that has extremely good onboard SRC for this purpose. This would almost certainly beat out going aes to a/d to aes into the HHB, even with really good converters.

One caveat: I'm not sure Weiss does 192 yet, but it's worth a investigating.
Old 19th December 2002
  #7
Jax
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Quote:
Originally posted by C.Lambrechts
192 is the ONLY way to get 192k into HD
You mean the 192 Digital I/O doesn't do 192?

There are other 192 converters on the market besides Digi's. Still, john isn't trying to find a different converter for getting into PT, so the point is moot.
Old 19th December 2002
  #8
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Weiss is about to release the ADC2, a 192k / 24 bits stereo AD convertor. but then you still don't have it inside your HD system. would depend if Weiss would support the same aes protocol as the 192 i/o which is dual wire at 192k. Probably yes I'd think but to be verfified.
Old 19th December 2002
  #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
You mean the 192 Digital I/O doesn't do 192?

There are other 192 converters on the market besides Digi's. Still, john isn't trying to find a different converter for getting into PT, so the point is moot.
euh ... yes of course ... the 192 Digital i/o does 192k in dual wire aes mode ... not too many ad's will support the same protocol.

even at 96k there are ad's that do single aes and others that do dual aes .... some do both. at 192 single aes is not even possible to my knowledge. so chances are quite big that most 192 adc's will do dual wire. ...
Old 19th December 2002
  #10
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correction :

the 192 Digital i/o does 192k in dual wire aes mode but only on the db25 aes connections, not on the XLR (ENCL AES) connectors .
Old 19th December 2002
  #11
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what SRC would you recommend to keep it in the box and get great performance if i am reading your posts right. Or do you mean some external SRC that i could go direct from the PTHD Dual Wire 192k outputs to external SRC unit and then AES from that to AES 44.1k on the HHB. That would mean never going into the analog realm at all. That is cool. Would this unit have an analog insert. Part of me would like to go analog at that point to use some analog home type mastering for myself and clients that do not have money for proper mastering.

Also, off that subject. Is there a unit that will do the equivalent of the Sony PCM recorders that used to use 3/4" decks for the data. Is this what the large dup houses are still using. I would love to make real CD's and not CDR's. This sounds like it could be a boat load of cash though. I am tired of CDR's that will not play in every machine. It is getting better though. And at that point it it may be better to hold out for a way to make DVD-Audio or SACD disks at home. The DTS-CD is cool but still has compression.

Thanks for all the input on this subject. I am truly interested in getting the highest resolution in tracking without the crazy cost of tape. As I am paying for all this myself. I have found that Firewire drives are about the 3rd of the cost of 2" tape on an ablum basis. It may even be less than that if you work destructively as you would with tape.

One more thing. Have any of you used or recommend the Sony plugins. I would love to tweak out this system. I know that they do not go to 192k yet but I am hoping they will soon. Going to check out the demo's..

thanks again

peace john

Jules...great place for info...beats DUC hands down....no bull**** here.
Old 19th December 2002
  #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by jwh1192
what SRC would you recommend to keep it in the box and get great performance if i am reading your posts right. Or do you mean some external SRC that i could go direct from the PTHD Dual Wire 192k outputs to external SRC unit and then AES from that to AES 44.1k on the HHB. That would mean never going into the analog realm at all. That is cool. Would this unit have an analog insert. Part of me would like to go analog at that point to use some analog home type mastering for myself and clients that do not have money for proper mastering.
well , first off ... did you try the 192 i/o ? ... personally I love the ADC and the DAC. I think they are very very high quality and wether you might prefer other ADC or DAC is purely a matter of taste. I do know that with the 192 you're set to do about anything you would like to do . its routing possibilities are near to infinity.

Quote:
Originally posted by jwh1192
One more thing. Have any of you used or recommend the Sony plugins. I would love to tweak out this system. I know that they do not go to 192k yet but I am hoping they will soon. Going to check out the demo's..

thanks again

peace john

Jules...great place for info...beats DUC hands down....no bull**** here.
Jules is your man to tell you about the sony's. I had the eq on demo back in the mix days ... best eq PT has to offer imho.
Old 19th December 2002
  #13
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some mis-communication here...

i am using the 192 I/O...i like it...

i am responding to a post about using SRC in software as opposed to coming out AES daul wire to an external box to do SRC before hitting HHB...sorry for the confusion...

right now i am going out of PTHD 192 I/O analog to HHB and using the HHB converters ... i am curious as to better converters to get into the HHB...

i do not like what the internal PT SRC bounce is doing to the sound from 192 to 44.1...

peace john
Old 19th December 2002
  #14
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Why not just print the mix back to 2 tracks of PTHD at 192 to send to master? ( or convert later..) ( or are you limited to 24 tracks at 192...?)
Old 19th December 2002
  #15
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yes, limitd to 24 at 192...
Old 20th December 2002
  #16
SC
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Hmmm. to each his own, I guess. Personally, I am very impressed with the (new) Digi src in tweak-mode, though I have only used it to go from 48K and 88.2K to 44.1K. i haven't tried 192K at all, so maybe there's a difference.

I tried the Wiess real-time src, and it sounded worse.


Also, I must remain squarely in the "don't like the Digi 192 ADC" camp. I generally agree 1000% with Chris's opinions, but not this time.

I haven't bought a different converter yet, as I am not done testing, but so far the Lavry gold (too much delay, unfortunately) beats the pants off of the Digi at 88.2K. The difference was NOT as subtle as some would suggest, it was like taking waxed-paper off of the monitors.

Of course, I'm a REALLY picky guy, but what can you do? I'm looking foward to trying the Prism and Euphonix units. sure wish I could get them all here at once, but that will never happen.
Old 20th December 2002
  #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by speerchucker
Also, I must remain squarely in the "don't like the Digi 192 ADC" camp. I generally agree 1000% with Chris's opinions, but not this time.

I haven't bought a different converter yet, as I am not done testing, but so far the Lavry gold (too much delay, unfortunately) beats the pants off of the Digi at 88.2K. The difference was NOT as subtle as some would suggest, it was like taking waxed-paper off of the monitors.

hmmm .... can you explain what / why / how ?? ...


Quote:
Originally posted by speerchucker

Of course, I'm a REALLY picky guy, but what can you do? I'm looking foward to trying the Prism and Euphonix units. sure wish I could get them all here at once, but that will never happen.

Jules is very happy with his Prism unit ... would love to hear from someone who put it up against the 192.

Jon, you did a adc test with the 192 not too long ago I think ... was there a prism present ?
Old 22nd December 2002
  #18
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Just to expand this a little.. I have HD and a 192 what plugins do you use and like at 192? I've done a little at 192 and I like it but don't have alot of plugs yet,thanks
daniel
Old 24th December 2002
  #19
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ReverbOne and the digirack are all i am using right now and getting good sounds. when i get fully convinced that i am going to keep this thing i will look at McDSP and hopefully Universal Audio will have theirs out soon.

One thing is i am not using much EQ and only a bit of compression. A good product for Digi would be an analog insert box that works at 192k...they already have the realtime SRC on inputs (i use O2R for inserts through ADAT sometimes when i need another flavor), if they put it on outs for an insert box that would be cool.

On another note: the Hush firewire drives are working out great at 192k. 100gig 7200rpm and very quiet. You could run 24 track session at 192k with 2 of these drives....12 tracks per drive. You could get more tracks but you would start taxing a good thing.

peace john
Old 25th December 2002
  #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by jwh1192
ReverbOne and the digirack are all i am using right now and getting good sounds. when i get fully convinced that i am going to keep this thing i will look at McDSP and hopefully Universal Audio will have theirs out soon.

One thing is i am not using much EQ and only a bit of compression. A good product for Digi would be an analog insert box that works at 192k...they already have the realtime SRC on inputs (i use O2R for inserts through ADAT sometimes when i need another flavor), if they put it on outs for an insert box that would be cool.

On another note: the Hush firewire drives are working out great at 192k. 100gig 7200rpm and very quiet. You could run 24 track session at 192k with 2 of these drives....12 tracks per drive. You could get more tracks but you would start taxing a good thing.

peace john
Hey John, I'm still on the fence with the Ptools as whole. I think the sound is very good but I've been holding off on spending too much more cause I'd like to make sure it sounds alot better than what I had, before I commit! I have just the HD1, so to get 24 tracks you must have at least HD2 right?
I've been buying pres and am thinking about doing 1 out of my next 4 songs at 192 but does it sound a whole lot better?
The band I'm recording sort of sounds like creed, with neil peart.
I haven't recorded to 2 drives yet, do you just go to disc allocation and set the last 12 tracks to a different drive?
I been mostly at 44.1 and some 96. Thanks
Daniel
Old 25th December 2002
  #21
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i am not sure if you need HD2 for 24 tracks at 192k but i am using HD3 and it sure helps. it does take alot of gas to run at that sample rate. yes, it sounds better. more depth and it really sounds like there is more information present even after you convert (by whatever means) to 44.1 to listen on CDR. 2 drives, yes just allocate the next 12 to the new drive. do not mix and match SCSI and Firewire or ATA/IDE, use only one type of drive. I am hoping to have a website up in the new year and will post downloadable 192k Wav files ... i would like to have others listen to the stuff i have been doing for opinions but need to have website first.

peace john
Old 28th December 2002
  #22
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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🎧 15 years
Chris,

Here is what I have heard myself:

I liked the Trak2 at 96 better than the HD192 at 192 in a direct comparison. Both are much better, however, than the HD96 and 888/24.

Lately, I've been playing with Prism ADA Dream units (and renting them for critical xfers) and in direct comparison I think they are a large improvement over the Apogees.

Prism would be my first choice among all three.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.
Old 28th December 2002
  #23
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jon, when you say HD192 are you speaking of the Digidesign 192 I/O or the new MOTU HD192?
Old 28th December 2002
  #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by jwh1192
jon, when you say HD192 are you speaking of the Digidesign 192 I/O or the new MOTU HD192?

pretty sure Jon's talking about the digidesign 192 i/o
Old 28th December 2002
  #25
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Is the MOTU even out for real for that matter?
Old 28th December 2002
  #26
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thanks for the clarification

john
Old 28th December 2002
  #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Chris,

Here is what I have heard myself:

I liked the Trak2 at 96 better than the HD192 at 192 in a direct comparison. Both are much better, however, than the HD96 and 888/24.

Lately, I've been playing with Prism ADA Dream units (and renting them for critical xfers) and in direct comparison I think they are a large improvement over the Apogees.

Prism would be my first choice among all three.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.
Hey Jon,

If you loved the Prism(very transparent), wait till you try the Genex(transparent and musical).

Their DSD recorder is the Sh*t.
Old 29th December 2002
  #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hey Jon,

If you loved the Prism(very transparent), wait till you try the Genex(transparent and musical).

Their DSD recorder is the Sh*t.
Thrill, whats the deal, is it worth the money?
How does it compare to other high end recorders analog or digital? I understand if it doesn't sound exactly like analog
Thanks
Daniel
Old 29th December 2002
  #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
Thrill, whats the deal, is it worth the money?
How does it compare to other high end recorders analog or digital? I understand if it doesn't sound exactly like analog
Thanks
Daniel
I love the Genex converters. If i had the extra money I would have purchased them on the spot. They are more musical to my ears than the Prism.

Any new format right now is risky. I love the way DSD sounds and the whole analog comparison to me is not important, because I grew up with plenty of good and bad analog.

I treat things for how it sounds to me, how it makes me feel, and in the end how people/clients will react.

Genex has always made excellent products. Even their PCM digital 2 track was way ahead in terms of sound(only the Sony came close).

I wish a standard could be made. DSD/SACD just decide already!! We are already for better sounding masters, bring it on!!!
Old 30th December 2002
  #30
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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🎧 15 years
Thrill,

I actually did a shoot-out of the new Genex converters in my previous, smaller studio a year ago, versus my AD8000s...these were the Genex models where one box does DA and another, separate one, does AD.

Good stuff, and a hard call (two very different flavors). The Genexes were very impressive, but I ended up convincing myself that I liked the familiar, low-mid warmth of the Apogees over the analytical, transparent Genexes.

I wonder if I should shoot them out again in the new room, versus the Prisms. The Genexes are much less expensive, to boot.
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